Still trying to find the right amp build project.... need some thoughts...

[barrymclark]

Hey guys,

 

I am thinking that I will want to do a gain monster for a build. I will build clean, but I have that covered for now.

 

This might sound bizarre, but I hear a GREAT base for an OD beast in the Marshall Plexi. Thick. Balls for days. It just nudging.

 

To put this in perspective, I am a HUGE fan of the DSL100 amp. I have never played one, but I dig the JCM900 SLX too. What those amps have that other Marshalls (2203, 2550, etc) don't is that the drive is all tube and not a clipping diode. Now, that isn't why I like them. That just happens to be the similarity between the ones I like. If that makes sense.

 

Anyways, I hear potential in the Plexi to be pushed or modded the direction of the JCM900SLX or JCM2000 DSL100.

 

Where this is going is I'd like to get a layout for a plexi and apply appropriate mods to it to really make it a fire breathing beast. I like the DSL sound the most of any stock Marshall I have ever played but there is more going on there than I want to deal with with regards to buttons and all that mess.

 

I want gain, BMT, volume.

 

Ceritone has a Yeti and Chupacarbra amp but I don't see that layouts or kits are available. Seems those are only sold as built amps. Not a bad price and the demos are EXACTLY what I am looking for. Just wanted to build one.

 

Anyways, know of any mods I can draw into a plexi layout/schematic that'd get me where I am going?

 

Thanks!

[big bob]

I would think you might want to go el84 power section for monster gain.

[barrymclark]

I would think you might want to go el84 power section for monster gain.

I've thought about that...

 

Maybe a quad of EL84s. The Jet City I had was a two of them and it was rated at 20w. It's sweet spot was at about 60%-75% of the dial on the gain and volume knobs with the EQ knobs actually rather high up their dials as well. Really did like the tone of the Jet City but to really play with the metal guys that I do, I had to drive the bejesus out of that amp and it went over its sweet spot and just got loose and lost.

[barrymclark]

If I could pare down the features of the DSL to something like the Plexi, I'd be happy with that too. No reverb, loop. No channel sub-settings. It has the same tube complement as the Plexi. Just have to find a way simplify the circuit such that the sound is still there. I can follow the Plexi schematic alright but the DSL one is a bit more...involved.

[DetroitBlues]

I'd suggst simple designs for the first build. It's easier to trouble shoot when there is less to worry about it?

[barrymclark]

I'd suggst simple designs for the first build. It's easier to trouble shoot when there is less to worry about it?

 

The Plexi doesn't look bad...but it also won't get me where I'm going. Probably better just getting the Ceriatone Yeti or Chupacarbra.

[jjkrause84]

My first ever build was a JTM45....took months, but it wasn't 'hard' (just time consuming). A JMP is really similar (if that's what you mean by Plexi).

 

If you're more interested in JCM900 and later amps I would just get one, to be honest. The building thing, for me, is really about getting an amp that no longer exists on the market place (except in super-expensive boutique form). If you like readily available and affordable amps...just get one!

[barrymclark]

My first ever build was a JTM45....took months' date=' but it wasn't 'hard' (just time consuming). A JMP is really similar (if that's what you mean by Plexi).

 

If you're more interested in JCM900 and later amps I would just get one, to be honest. The building thing, for me, is really about getting an amp that no longer exists on the market place (except in super-expensive boutique form). If you like readily available and affordable amps...just get one! [/quote']Believe me, those new DSL amps are VERY tempting!

[212Mavguy]

Have you built, modded, or restored any tube amps before?

[barrymclark]

Have you built' date=' modded, or restored any tube amps before?[/quote']

 

Nope. Never.

[Guest HRB853370]

Hey guys,

 

I am thinking that I will want to do a gain monster for a build. I will build clean, but I have that covered for now.

 

This might sound bizarre, but I hear a GREAT base for an OD beast in the Marshall Plexi. Thick. Balls for days. It just nudging.

 

To put this in perspective, I am a HUGE fan of the DSL100 amp. I have never played one, but I dig the JCM900 SLX too. What those amps have that other Marshalls (2203, 2550, etc) don't is that the drive is all tube and not a clipping diode. Now, that isn't why I like them. That just happens to be the similarity between the ones I like. If that makes sense.

 

Anyways, I hear potential in the Plexi to be pushed or modded the direction of the JCM900SLX or JCM2000 DSL100.

 

Where this is going is I'd like to get a layout for a plexi and apply appropriate mods to it to really make it a fire breathing beast. I like the DSL sound the most of any stock Marshall I have ever played but there is more going on there than I want to deal with with regards to buttons and all that mess.

 

I want gain, BMT, volume.

 

Ceritone has a Yeti and Chupacarbra amp but I don't see that layouts or kits are available. Seems those are only sold as built amps. Not a bad price and the demos are EXACTLY what I am looking for. Just wanted to build one.

 

Anyways, know of any mods I can draw into a plexi layout/schematic that'd get me where I am going?

 

Thanks!

 

How about a Starlight?

[barrymclark]

 

How about a Starlight?

 

Eventually. Not a gainiac though.

[212Mavguy]

Barry, how are you at reading schematics? can you understand what the symbols are and mean? What books on guitar tube amps, if any, do you own or have unlimited access to?

[barrymclark]

Barry' date=' how are you at reading schematics? can you understand what the symbols are and mean? What books on guitar tube amps, if any, do you own or have unlimited access to?[/quote']

 

I have some skills in reading schematics as a result of what I do for a living. I learn very quickly. Currently, no books. I mainly access articles by builders on the web but they tend to deal in generalities.

[212Mavguy]

The books are where it's at,.. period. One that will cover your bases and then some...The Ultimate Tone by Kevin O'connor. Worth the $$, spendy. I have that one... and the bible of the amp garage forum, Designing Tube Preamps for Guitar and Bass by Merlin blencowe, Will be 180 + dollars after shipping for those two tomes unless you aree gifted them.

 

It's actually more expensive in the long run to overestimate your intelligence and capabilities when it comes to getting started amp building.

 

What you are proposing for your very first build is quite unrealistic. The what is fine, great even, but there are serious problems ahead with the whys and hows once you start using your tools.

 

Start with an oversized chassis, use a single ended design and if you want to, mod and'or prototype the god out of the preamp. Typical push pull power sections have more complexity by far. Want to stick in a loop, you have room..same for reverb, or a VVR setup, different power supply, filtering arrangements, different grounding schemes...even oriuentation of the big iron parts to one another and the tubes as well. Notice on a trainwreck build how all the iron is close together on the same end of the chassis for instance..Ken fischer did that purely for function from experiences, not theory, he rowed his own boat like Dumble did with his. Lots of folks prototype this way, fugly first build that experiments (what is bread board(s)) with the mods 'til works the way wanted, then build in a nice chassis/faceplate set for keeps. Hammond AO29 chassis is decent for learning on, can get them used pretty cheap onthe 'bay, might be able to harvest some parts as well.

 

Going the long way via working up in build complexity IS the fastest way to assured competence. . Have read a fair amount of posts about persons who built a D-clone as first time or a Wreck clone, and wonder why they have tones that don't sound like they are supposed to, Then they end up having to rebuild the whole thing to make things work the way supposed to, so they had to build it twice.

 

Don't fall into that trap, be patient, and KISS philosophy is best, you don't want to wear out your welcome with an accomplished tech by asking too many uninformed questions about an overly complex build, good way to burn a bridge. That tech could be earning 60 bucks per hour bench time, and too many questions taking too much of his time will end up costing HIM money for opportunity cost to his own output in most cases. The abilbity to self diagnose is far simpler with simple designs. The abilbty to self diagnose is absolutely KEY. That;s where the books you bought will pay for them selves many times over.

 

Allen amplification is a great Fender based US builder and kit maker, NICE stuff there. Weber has decent kits, not spectacular in the parts department, but they do work well and tend to sound very good, they have a good range of kits, including some marshall types and a rating system for complexity.

 

The Yeti and Chupa are wonderful values. No doubt you saw the gutshots of the AFD 35? There is a LOT of parts in that amp, and the Chupa and Yeti are similarly complex. They have won a lot of tone wars against the more spendy competition, the c-tones have NICE parts in them besides having good lead dress and iron. The AFD is from the same genre, and since it's a copy not a Ceriatone design, there are different levels of build completeness you can get it in.

 

It's considered good etiquette when contacting an amp builder to keep your written communication short and concise, less than one page, again you are taking his time and money from him for every minute he is spending reading and writing and not building or in his case, prototyping. that is one reason why C-tone stopped making kits for a while, the tech support was overwhelming the main business.

 

Please don't be upset with me, I'm trying to save you both time and trouble, even though my words seem to scream just the opposite. I'm describing things as what is...actually is.

 

I'd be SO proud to hear of your first successful amp build!

 

Mine is kinda sucky looking inside, but it has uber quality parts, works great, bulletproof, and yes, it's single ended and also YES, even though it sounds amazing, I'm gonna rip its little guts out and rewire with some better wire, grounding, and lead dress. So I'm speaking from personal experience having been where you are, not long enogh ago to forget, and wish to see you succeed beyond your wildest dreams.

[H]

212mavguy has offered sound advice here. Read it and absorb it.

 

The amp you want to build will have a lot of components so won't be cheap. I found out the hard way that soldering these components together and adding short runs of wire is not the end of the story; oscillation and vibration produce noises that aren't part of the sound required from an amp and these have to be designed out.

 

The ultra high gain you seek will be achieved via the preamp stages, probably via multiple 12AX7 tubes, each increasing any unwanted sounds 100-fold.

 

I feel lucky that the oscillation noises in my own, fairly simple 5e3 kit build were dealt with by an experienced tech for less than 10% of the entire build cost. 'Lucky' because I found out that building a kit amp is not 'paint by numbers', it's an initiation to an art form that requires considerable skill and insight to produce a quiet, usable amp.

 

Good luck with your project and I welcome you into the ranks of the amp builders on the HOC

[barrymclark]

The books are where it's at,.. period. One that will cover your bases and then some...The Ultimate Tone by Kevin O'connor. Worth the $$, spendy. I have that one... and the bible of the amp garage forum, Designing Tube Preamps for Guitar and Bass by Merlin blencowe, Will be 180 + dollars after shipping for those two tomes unless you aree gifted them.

 

It's actually more expensive in the long run to overestimate your intelligence and capabilities when it comes to getting started amp building.

 

What you are proposing for your very first build is quite unrealistic. The what is fine, great even, but there are serious problems ahead with the whys and hows once you start using your tools.

 

Start with an oversized chassis, use a single ended design and if you want to, mod and'or prototype the god out of the preamp. Typical push pull power sections have more complexity by far. Want to stick in a loop, you have room..same for reverb, or a VVR setup, different power supply, filtering arrangements, different grounding schemes...even oriuentation of the big iron parts to one another and the tubes as well. Notice on a trainwreck build how all the iron is close together on the same end of the chassis for instance..Ken fischer did that purely for function from experiences, not theory, he rowed his own boat like Dumble did with his. Lots of folks prototype this way, fugly first build that experiments (what is bread board(s)) with the mods 'til works the way wanted, then build in a nice chassis/faceplate set for keeps. Hammond AO29 chassis is decent for learning on, can get them used pretty cheap onthe 'bay, might be able to harvest some parts as well.

 

Going the long way via working up in build complexity IS the fastest way to assured competence. . Have read a fair amount of posts about persons who built a D-clone as first time or a Wreck clone, and wonder why they have tones that don't sound like they are supposed to, Then they end up having to rebuild the whole thing to make things work the way supposed to, so they had to build it twice.

 

Don't fall into that trap, be patient, and KISS philosophy is best, you don't want to wear out your welcome with an accomplished tech by asking too many uninformed questions about an overly complex build, good way to burn a bridge. That tech could be earning 60 bucks per hour bench time, and too many questions taking too much of his time will end up costing HIM money for opportunity cost to his own output in most cases. The abilbity to self diagnose is far simpler with simple designs. The abilbty to self diagnose is absolutely KEY. That;s where the books you bought will pay for them selves many times over.

 

Allen amplification is a great Fender based US builder and kit maker, NICE stuff there. Weber has decent kits, not spectacular in the parts department, but they do work well and tend to sound very good, they have a good range of kits, including some marshall types and a rating system for complexity.

 

The Yeti and Chupa are wonderful values. No doubt you saw the gutshots of the AFD 35? There is a LOT of parts in that amp, and the Chupa and Yeti are similarly complex. They have won a lot of tone wars against the more spendy competition, the c-tones have NICE parts in them besides having good lead dress and iron. The AFD is from the same genre, and since it's a copy not a Ceriatone design, there are different levels of build completeness you can get it in.

 

It's considered good etiquette when contacting an amp builder to keep your written communication short and concise, less than one page, again you are taking his time and money from him for every minute he is spending reading and writing and not building or in his case, prototyping. that is one reason why C-tone stopped making kits for a while, the tech support was overwhelming the main business.

 

Please don't be upset with me, I'm trying to save you both time and trouble, even though my words seem to scream just the opposite. I'm describing things as what is...actually is.

 

I'd be SO proud to hear of your first successful amp build!

 

Mine is kinda sucky looking inside, but it has uber quality parts, works great, bulletproof, and yes, it's single ended and also YES, even though it sounds amazing, I'm gonna rip its little guts out and rewire with some better wire, grounding, and lead dress. So I'm speaking from personal experience having been where you are, not long enogh ago to forget, and wish to see you succeed beyond your wildest dreams.

No worries... and believe me, I already accepted all of this to be true. The greatest potential death knell in me building an amp is time being at an extreme premium these days. Not sure if anyone notices, but I may go months without a post. That isn't from lack of interest but because I wake up and study, go to work, study at lunch, get home and complete assignments. The weekends are just wall to wall studying. Breaks in the semester means that I just brush up on prerequisites before the course begins. No summers off. This will be my life potentially for the next 8 years. On the one hand, all I have is time, on the other, 5 minutes for me stretches over years. haha.

 

This might ultimately end up being one of those things I'd LOVE to do... but might not get to until much later in life when I have at least completed schooling and have reclaimed my evenings and weekends again. I have a guitar design that has been sitting for years for the same reason.

 

Sadly, intelligence and competence is something I never give myself adequate credit for. I know I learn quickly, but I generally consider myself a hack at things. Despite repeated successes that might indicate otherwise, that is just what I see. Maybe that is what drives me. Who knows.... but I have gotten to where I am confident that I can learn what I need to in most things. I am working on that aspect of my personality. haha.

[barrymclark]

212mavguy has offered sound advice here. Read it and absorb it.

 

The amp you want to build will have a lot of components so won't be cheap. I found out the hard way that soldering these components together and adding short runs of wire is not the end of the story; oscillation and vibration produce noises that aren't part of the sound required from an amp and these have to be designed out.

 

The ultra high gain you seek will be achieved via the preamp stages, probably via multiple 12AX7 tubes, each increasing any unwanted sounds 100-fold.

 

I feel lucky that the oscillation noises in my own, fairly simple 5e3 kit build were dealt with by an experienced tech for less than 10% of the entire build cost. 'Lucky' because I found out that building a kit amp is not 'paint by numbers', it's an initiation to an art form that requires considerable skill and insight to produce a quiet, usable amp.

 

Good luck with your project and I welcome you into the ranks of the amp builders on the HOC

I hope too... but as I mentioned in the other post, the reality is, time is my greatest want these days.

[DetroitBlues]

 

 

The Plexi doesn't look bad...but it also won't get me where I'm going. Probably better just getting the Ceriatone Yeti or Chupacarbra.

 

I checked out the site, I say the Bassman design, 5F6A...