Top Wrapping

[Billgelder]

I have noted that some of you top wrap your string on your tail stop guitars. What are the advantage and disadvantage of top wrapping?

 

[GuitArtMan]

The best thing I can say is try and and see. I only top wrap on my Les Paul. Mine is one the late '80s pre-Hitoric Flame Top RI's that have a steeper than normal neck set. This in turn makes the bridge a bit higher than normal, which makes for a steeper break angle over the strings. I like to crank my tail piece down as tight as possible (been doing it since the '70s). Well after collapsing my 2nd ABR-1 bridge I decided maybe I should top wrap. This lessened the break angle at the bridge it hasn't collapsed since. Oh and Duane Alman and Billy Gibbons do it - so you know it must be cool!

[DetroitBlues]

I do it because the strings have more of a slinky feel. Others say the tailpeice can be lowered to the top to increase sustain....

[Billgelder]

Thanks guys. Since there no negative, I'm going to try it on my Les Paul standard. I'll let you all know how it goes.

[DetroitBlues]

Be warned, once you do, it will leave impressions on top of the tailpeice...

[tbonesullivan]

some people swear by it. some don't care. some think it's stupid. It's all about what you think about it.

 

As for me, I don't do it. I've got a whole bunch of guitars with TOM and Stop tails, and I've never felt a need to top wrap.

[kidsmoke]

... have a steeper than normal neck set. This in turn makes the bridge a bit higher than normal, which makes for a steeper break angle over the strings. I like to crank my tail piece down as tight as possible.

This is what led me to do it on my 535. In order to have the proper action, the bridge is skyhigh. Being a wider nashville bridge, this meant that in order for the strings to avoid contacting the bridge behind the saddles en route to the stoptail, that tail had to be super high as well. I had read a couple of articles and books on set-ups, and they stressed that this should be avoided. Top wrapping allowed that. easier to bend? Eh, maybe. But no flexing of the tail, and the tail is now solid to the top.

 

 

A search on this topic will yield a couple previous threads on the topic.

 

before photo... it's clear that if I were to try to lower the tail, the strings will break over the bridge, and not just the saddle.

 

 

after...you get the point. I've since changed hardware and eliminated the tilt. So between the fact that the hardware is solid to the top, the strings only break on the saddle, they don't slip from their grooves while bending, which may be a bit easier, and yeah, Allman, Gibbons and Bonamassa all are able to do it without detriment...i'm down with it. If the neck angle didn't demand it, I wouldn't bother.

 

[Kuz]

i'm down with it. If the neck angle didn't demand it, I wouldn't bother.

 

 

Bingo, I check that my strings clear the back of the TOM without hitting the bridge by taking a piece of paper and see if it easily will slide between the bottom of the string and not hit the bridge. If it does hit and the paper won't slide through, I raise the stop tail a quarter of a turn until the paper slides under the strings and doesn't hit the bridge. I have not had to raise my stop tail anywhere near as high as the first photo, so I don't top wrap.

 

Terry McInturff once told me that since the Nashville bridge has metal studs going into the top to of the guitar where the bridge screws into, that it is nearly impossible to collapse a Nashville bridge with too much tension of the strings hitting the back. He said if the strings just barely hit the back of the Nashville bridge you should be OK. I error on caution and try my best so they don;t hit, but if they just do hit the back of the bridge I won't raise the stop tail.

[Number8]

I change to a top wrap on my Prospect tonight and there were three improvements and one drawback as a consequence:

 

Pro: Less tension (probably due to the less steep break angle) and greater ease of play.

 

Pro: Tuning is more stable.

 

Pro: No more ping when I tune the G. I'm guessing it wasn't clearing the bridge.

 

Con: Low E buzzes a tiny bit where it wasn't before.

[gpuma]

I change to a top wrap on my Prospect tonight and there were three improvements and one drawback as a consequence:

 

Pro: Less tension (probably due to the less steep break angle) and greater ease of play.

 

Pro: Tuning is more stable.

 

Pro: No more ping when I tune the G. I'm guessing it wasn't clearing the bridge.

 

Con: Low E buzzes a tiny bit where it wasn't before.

 

 

hmmm the lower tension argument is confusing, as the tension is proportional to the length (given a certain gauge). If you top wrap you are certainly not making the string any shorter... Wonder if it is more related to an easier "feel" than to a real tension...

[Number8]

I hear you and I understand, but I swear it's a lot looser and free. I can't even say it's all in my head because I wasn't expecting it. All I was trying to do was control the ping in the G and stabilize the tuning.

[mtpatty]

I am a top wrapper- and i agree it is slinkier and feels better to me

[mars_hall]

hmmm the lower tension argument is confusing, as the tension is proportional to the length (given a certain gauge). If you top wrap you are certainly not making the string any shorter... Wonder if it is more related to an easier "feel" than to a real tension...

 

We tend to think of the physics as being two-dimensional (perpendicular to the fretboard/body face) and static with one fundamental frequency being generated as we fret the string. This means we are ignoring the lateral movement in stretching the string across the fretboard which changes the pitch giving the slinky feel. So the problem is actually three or four dimensional and slinky is another way of describing material elasticity.

 

Perpendicular to the fretboard, there is a limit to how far a string can move and how much pressure is applied before reaching this limit and the static frequency.

 

In stretching the strings across the fretboard (i.e. a dynamic frequency shift, not static), the limit is no longer constrained by fretboard, the feeling of slinkyness is introduced, and the string vector force relative to the direction of motion is decreased.

 

 

Pluck a string between the nut and the tuning peg, between the nut and the bridge, and between the bridge and the tailpiece. You would agree that the string has a constant tension down its entire length as it shifts angles, but the length of the segments and frequency changes, as do the force vectors.

 

Top wrapping increases the unit length of the string in bridge to tailpiece segment and changes the force vectors. The string material has elasticity, stretching and returning to its original form. The longer the string, the more material and the farther it can stretch without breaking per given force, before returning to it original form. As with any spring, the farther you stretch it, the less it stretches for a given force. I'm tired but I think you might get it.

[DetroitBlues]

I hear you and I understand, but I swear it's a lot looser and free. I can't even say it's all in my head because I wasn't expecting it. All I was trying to do was control the ping in the G and stabilize the tuning.

 

You could always route the low E through the normal route... Not sure if you adjusted the tailpiece for it, but it should increase the tension a bit.

[GuitArtMan]

We tend to think of the physics as being two-dimensional (perpendicular to the fretboard/body face) and static with one fundamental frequency being generated as we fret the string. This means we are ignoring the lateral movement in stretching the string across the fretboard which changes the pitch giving the slinky feel. So the problem is actually three or four dimensional and slinky is another way of describing material elasticity.

 

Perpendicular to the fretboard, there is a limit to how far a string can move and how much pressure is applied before reaching this limit and the static frequency.

 

In stretching the strings across the fretboard (i.e. a dynamic frequency shift, not static), the limit is no longer constrained by fretboard, the feeling of slinkyness is introduced, and the string vector force relative to the direction of motion is decreased.

 

 

Pluck a string between the nut and the tuning peg, between the nut and the bridge, and between the bridge and the tailpiece. You would agree that the string has a constant tension down its entire length as it shifts angles, but the length of the segments and frequency changes, as do the force vectors.

 

Top wrapping increases the unit length of the string in bridge to tailpiece segment and changes the force vectors. The string material has elasticity, stretching and returning to its original form. The longer the string, the more material and the farther it can stretch without breaking per given force, before returning to it original form. As with any spring, the farther you stretch it, the less it stretches for a given force. I'm tired but I think you might get it.

Thank you. I've been wanting a physicist to explain this in laymen's terms. I'm always amazed when I pick up two similar guitars (usually strat style) with similar set ups (action, string gauge) and one feels slinky and the other feels stiff. This helps explain some of this. I'm guessing then a strat sustain block where the ball ends stopped at the bottom of the (block rather than up inside) would have a slinkier feel with all other things equal. I wonder if anyone makes one like this...

[Billgelder]

I top wrapped my Les Paul standard last week. I was able to screw the tail stop all the way down against the guitar. I played it at practise for about 3 hours. I did not play it at all at the gig friday night. I played my new H-150 the whole night. But I must say I liked the top wrap on the Les Paul standard. It did feel slinkier, stayed in tune better, and do to the tail stop being all the way down it had more sustain. I did not get any buzzing out of the string. I'm not sure if I will do the same with the H-150. I want to see what happens to the top of the tail stop first.

[kidsmoke]

I want to see what happens to the top of the tail stop first.

 

are you referring to the "damage" done by the top wrapping?

 

this is a Schaller stop tail that was top wrapped with 10's for a while.

 

Keep in mind, it's a simple component to replace if you felt you needed to restore if for a later sale.

 

[Billgelder]

are you referring to the "damage" done by the top wrapping?

 

this is a Schaller stop tail that was top wrapped with 10's for a while.

 

Keep in mind, it's a simple component to replace if you felt you needed to restore if for a later sale.

 

Thanks Bud

Can show a pic of the top of the tail stop?

[kidsmoke]

Thanks Bud

Can show a pic of the top of the tail stop?

 

Nope. Ha. Sorry, I may have an additional photo at home on my laptop, I'll look this evening. sold this set, but as I recall, the string departs quickly from the tail, and there was barely noticable marring for maybe an 1/8" beyond what you see here. Took this when I had it for sale. Full disclosure doncha know.

 

FWIW, I replaced this with an aluminum Faber tone lock tail, and promptly top wrapped that one too, with no qualms whatsoever.

 

[Billgelder]

Nope. Ha. Sorry, I may have an additional photo at home on my laptop, I'll look this evening. sold this set, but as I recall, the string departs quickly from the tail, and there was barely noticable marring for maybe an 1/8" beyond what you see here. Took this when I had it for sale. Full disclosure doncha know.

 

FWIW, I replaced this with an aluminum Faber tone lock tail, and promptly top wrapped that one too, with no qualms whatsoever.

 

 

Cool thanks