Why Solid Rims for Laminate Heritages?

[unikh550]

Have a H-550, which has the solid rims. Wouldn't laminate rims give more structural rigidity, without compromising the tone? Why do they make their laminate hollowbodies this way?- Charley Bevell Bloomington, IN

[Guest HRB853370]

Have a H-550, which has the solid rims. Wouldn't laminate rims give more structural rigidity, without compromising the tone? Why do they make their laminate hollowbodies this way?- Charley Bevell Bloomington, IN

 

Hmm, good question. I too have a 550.

[bolero]

I would guess it's a selling point: generally the more solid wood you have on a gtr the better it is

 

also since the side are heated & bent to shape, solid wood won't delaminate like ply would ( pun? ply wood...nyuk nyuk ) which could create voids in the rim & buzz/vibrate etc

[Gitfiddler]

Every once in a while someone here asks a really great question about Heritage guitars. Good one, Charley.

 

I've also wondered what the benefits, if any, are to building laminate bodied guitars with solid rims. (ala 530, 535,555 and 550)

[Blunote]

Just speculation, but wouldn't the solid rim add resonance to the guitar and help with feedback issues? I'm also of the opinion that the solid rim adds greater rigidity than a thin laminate -such as is found on acoustics.

 

Or, were you thinking of a thicker laminate, which might pose issues with bending to shape.

[kidsmoke]

I've also wondered what the benefits, if any, are to building laminate bodied guitars with solid rims.

 

+1

 

the assumption I made in silence when I originally read the specs way back when was that the bending/pressing process must be less susceptible to complications with a single ply, as opposed to multi ply laminate. They're some pretty tight radii by the neck on these semi. But then if that's the case, why would imports use a more costly/complex method and use lami?

 

[Kuz]

Nobody, I mean nobody, would want a laminate acoustic guitar. Solid rims/backs/sides sound better, are more expensive to make & build, and are better quality. I am not trying to be mean spirited by my response, but it is kind of like asking why not put a Honda engine in a Ferrari.

 

I am active on the Jazz Guitar forum and where the question of a laminate top to reduce feedback and give a dark tone is asked about, I have never heard of a question of using laminate woods for the body is preferred over solid wood.

[kidsmoke]

Nobody, I mean nobody, would want a laminate acoustic guitar. Solid rims/backs/sides sound better, are more expensive to make & build, and are better quality. I am not trying to be mean spirited by my response, but it is kind of like asking why not put a Honda engine in a Ferrari.

 

I am active on the Jazz Guitar forum and where the question of a laminate top to reduce feedback and give a dark tone is asked about, I have never heard of a question of using laminate woods for the body is preferred over solid wood.

 

But Heritage does combine the two, where some contemporary segment competitors, most notably in my mind, Collings, is all solid wood.

 

What would factor in to the decision to mix materials? You're saying that, historically, semi's had lami tops and backs to combat feedback?

[Kuz]

But Heritage does combine the two, where some contemporary segment competitors, most notably in my mind, Collings, is all solid wood.

 

What would factor in to the decision to mix materials? You're saying that, historically, semi's had lami tops and backs to combat feedback?

 

Collings does now have a laminate model of their 335 style. Many people requested it. This is why Heritage makes it's 535/555 with laminate tops, because they sound different. The 335s and ES-175s have laminate tops for the same reason, a darker tone and more feedback resistant. But this is not why they started making them this way, they initially used laminate wood because it was cheaper. All of the vintage top the line guitars used solid wood (solid maple, mahogany, spruce). But it was later realized that there was a tone difference (by accident) and it is now a laminate top is preferred by man for darker tone and less feedback. I have not heard of anybody preferring laminate sides, rims, and backs on an archtop.

[ridethatbike]

I remembered reading this article a few months ago and thought it might add to this thread. Interesting stuff, at least to me.

 

http://www.jhalemusic.com/pages/laminatedSolidCarved.html

 

I'm mostly impressed I actually found the article quickly, usually searching for stuff like that would require at least 30 minutes of looking through browser history, google history, etc...

[Spectrum13]

At PSPV Jim was showing me how he uses the rim bending steam tool. He said he cuts strips thin enought to bend and thick enough not to break. He pointed to a bunch that cracked in the process and was thrown into a barrel saying with all his years doing this you still never know how one strip will take to bending. If I remember correctly, I think Jim said they could bend up to four pieces at a time. He showed be a jig he made to place a newly bent piece into so it could set for a while after steaming. There were several different shape/ molds that they use on the bender thing. I got the impression when the bolt on a mold to bend 575 rims, they make a bunch of rims before switching to an eagle or 535. My guess is they have one way to bend rims and one machine to do it so all models are assembled with soild rims.

[Blunote]

So, are you saying that solid rims are really multiple pieces of steamed solid ply wood glued together?

 

Or are solid rims what's left over when you mill the guitar shape out of a board?

[Gitfiddler]

So, are you saying that solid rims are really multiple pieces of steamed solid ply wood glued together?

 

Or are solid rims what's left over when you mill the guitar shape out of a board?

 

The link above from J.Hale seemed to describe the process. It reads as follows:

 

Laminate Type 1 (aka Solid Wood). This construction produces a warm, mellow acoustic tone with improved tolerance to amplified feedback. The plate is made from 2 - 3 thin layers of high quality solid wood. Glue is applied between the pieces and then pressed to form an arched shape. The exposed layer of wood is typically a very thin slice of quarter sawn wood with excellent figure, flame or grain pattern. Even though this construction uses a laminate process, most manufacturer’s will use the term ‘Solid Wood’ in their descriptions and specifications. Note that if a manufacturer advertises an archtop as having a solid spruce top, you can bet it’s a laminate and not carved. (This does not hold true for flat top guitars. In this case, solid wood means the plates are made from a single piece of tone wood.)

[Blunote]

Is that how heritage makes theirs?

[unikh550]

Thanks, everyone, for the wonderful replies, especially the references to Jim (Deurloo?) and Hale. About a year-and-a-half ago, I bent over to pick up a sheet of music while the plug was in the jack of my 550, and wound up making a jagged crack in the sides-R_I_I_I_P, followed by Charley's wails. The poor repair was fixed for free by Pete Moreno, as part of my 550's refinish from cherry to a really beautiful russet brown , with a tinge of burst. Never had done that with any of the 175's that I used to own. Wondered if the solid rim was paper thin, compared to laminate? On the Martin Guitar Forum (UMGF) awhile back, they gave, at most, 4-5% contribution of the sides to the overall acoustic sound of a guitar. Sometimes play bop tunes loudly through my Polytone, so acoustic quality is of little importance to me. If I ordered another Heritage, I'd want an all-lam, if it is more Charley resistant.- Charley Bevell Bloomington, IN

[kidsmoke]

So, are you saying that solid rims are really multiple pieces of steamed solid ply wood glued together?

Or are solid rims what's left over when you mill the guitar shape out of a board?

 

Offering this to clarify terminology only. You've got the 4 basic components to the body of the "335" style semi hollow guitar. A Top Plate (the "top) (per the attached article) with the F-holes and hardware mounted to it. You've got the bottom plate (back), you've got the Rim, and you've got the center block, not easily visible to the eye when the guitar is assembled.

 

Here is a photo of H-535's in process at Parsons Street. You see the Rims and the Center blocks, assembled to one another. you'll note that the Rims have serated wooden strips adhered to them. I cannot see how they would impact the acoustic character of the finished amplified guitar if they were lami or not, with all that wood and glue involved, but I'm no physicist. I'm an owner, however, and a very happy one.

 

Hope this answers your "what's a rim" query, Blunote.

 

[kidsmoke]

Addendum: in the above photo, the bottom shelf shows a "fully hollow" H-525 in process, with the short block to accommodate the mating of the guitar neck.

[Blunote]

That's a helluva chunk of wood down the center.

 

That mostly answers my question KS. Having not seen (or paid attention to) the inside of an H535, I imagined a chunkier solid wood & carved rim -like my Millennium. The picture makes me believe the construction uses a thinner rim -like the sides of a flat-top acoustic.

 

I'm still wondering if the rim is one single ply of solid wood (like an acoustic) or multiple ply of solid wood as per the J.Hale excerpt. It's hard for me to believe a very thick piece of maple could be steam bent to form those horns.

[kidsmoke]

So, are you saying that solid rims are really multiple pieces of steamed solid ply wood glued together?

Or are solid rims what's left over when you mill the guitar shape out of a board?

 

Ok, I didn't read this slowly enough. The answer is C) neither.

 

Your thinking of your millenium which is a milled piece...

 

 

Completely different animal. Get that out of your mind for this discussion.

 

This is a solid thin strip of maple, steamed and bent. Then these strips (having a brain fart, the name for these is escaping me) are glued to the interior, creating a surface for the top and bottom "plates". This is just like an acoustic guitar.

 

[rockabilly69]

Nobody, I mean nobody, would want a laminate acoustic guitar. Solid rims/backs/sides sound better, are more expensive to make & build, and are better quality. I am not trying to be mean spirited by my response, but it is kind of like asking why not put a Honda engine in a Ferrari.

 

I am active on the Jazz Guitar forum and where the question of a laminate top to reduce feedback and give a dark tone is asked about, I have never heard of a question of using laminate woods for the body is preferred over solid wood.

 

Not true in all cases! I own MANY really nice solid wood acoustics (with Adirondack tops, Alpine Spruce Tops, Honduran Mahog backs, Cuban Mahog backs, etc), that run from $1000 up to $5000, but the guitar that I play 5 days a week on stage is a 1979 Gibson Gospel. These guitars have a quite reputation for sounding consistantly good. The construction is laminated maple back and sides, solid spruce top. It's the top that does the talking and this guitar speaks with quite the voice! The closest thing I can compare it too is the sound of a good J45. And an added bonus is the strength of the laminated back works great in keeping runaway feedback in check. I contantly have pro musicians coming up to me asking me how the hell do I get such a good acoustic sound!!! I tell them it's the quality laminated back and sides:) Oh yeah, Made In Kalamazoo!!!

[pcovers]

Nobody, I mean nobody, would want a laminate acoustic guitar.

 

That is not exactly correct. But it is the conventional wisdom and a perspective that it taken by some. My favorite jazz box is laminated, which is a very common method for many top makers. Additionally, I have played and owned some wonderful solid top laminate back and sides acoustics that were ever bit the tone "quality" of many of the expensive boutique guitars I have owned. The old all solid is always better may have been appropriate years ago, but not anymore. I'm not suggesting that those whose experience supports the notions are wrong, only that the notion that it is a universal truth is not correct.

[pcovers]

Collings does now have a laminate model of their 335 style. Many people requested it. This is why Heritage makes it's 535/555 with laminate tops, because they sound different. The 335s and ES-175s have laminate tops for the same reason, a darker tone and more feedback resistant. But this is not why they started making them this way, they initially used laminate wood because it was cheaper.......But it was later realized that there was a tone difference (by accident) and it is now a laminate top is preferred by man for darker tone and less feedback. I have not heard of anybody preferring laminate sides, rims, and backs on an archtop.

 

Kuz, I think you hit on two important points. Many things we now call out as virtuous started out as simply being an economic decision. Even the use of Brazilian rosewood at a time was simply because of its ease of access and availability. I own a Sorento guitar, built in 1966, purchased from a Sears catalog for $29, that has a BW fretboard. When it becomes scarce, it becomes the holy grail. Second is your reference to "tone is different". I think that is a key concept. People love 335 style guitars and how they sound. The laminate construction may play a role in that desired sound. This is an example of how solid vs laminate "which sounds better" debate is somewhat cloudy. I expect that if the 335 sounded exactly as it does but was solid from the beginning, there would be some that extol the obvious superiority of solid guitars based on that. But, it isn't solid and yet it is a preferred and highly desired tone anyway. As we know, qualities of tone are not universal and numerous ad hock tests have shown, when a listener cannot see the guitar, many have no real clue about materials or method of construction.

 

There are many examples of live concerts as well as songs recorded with exceptional tonal qualities that were produced from guitars that do not follow conventional wisdom and assumptions. We know that much for sure. But there are also many variables associated with all of the responses we have to those facts.

[rockabilly69]

Kuz, I think you hit on two important points. Many things we now call out as virtuous started out as simply being an economic decision. Even the use of Brazilian rosewood at a time was simply because of its ease of access and availability. I own a Sorento guitar, built in 1966, purchased from a Sears catalog for $29, that has a BW fretboard. When it becomes scarce, it becomes the holy grail. Second is your reference to "tone is different". I think that is a key concept. People love 335 style guitars and how they sound. The laminate construction may play a role in that desired sound. This is an example of how solid vs laminate "which sounds better" debate is somewhat cloudy. I expect that if the 335 sounded exactly as it does but was solid from the beginning, there would be some that extol the obvious superiority of solid guitars based on that. But, it isn't solid and yet it is a preferred and highly desired tone anyway. As we know, qualities of tone are not universal and numerous ad hock tests have shown, when a listener cannot see the guitar, many have no real clue about materials or method of construction.

 

 

 

There are many examples of live concerts as well as songs recorded with exceptional tonal qualities that were produced from guitars that do not follow conventional wisdom and assumptions. We know that much for sure. But there are also many variables associated with all of the responses we have to those facts.

 

I agree with this entirely, another perfect example, Gretsch 6120's, the standard of Rockabilly cats. I think the lamination of those tops are part of that sound too.

[RJLII]

It has nothing to do with tone. In order to bend wood, it needs to be bent as a solid piece before or during the lamination process (the latter just like 535 and 550 tops) once the glue sets it's solid as a rock. Apply head and moisture to get it to bend and it delaminates. Trust me. Woodworker since 1978.

[gnappi]

I remembered reading this article a few months ago and thought it might add to this thread. Interesting stuff, at least to me.

 

http://www.jhalemusi...olidCarved.html

 

I'm mostly impressed I actually found the article quickly, usually searching for stuff like that would require at least 30 minutes of looking through browser history, google history, etc...

When I find an article I like, I use pdfcreator from sourceforge (reliable, virus free, no fee software) to make a soft copy of the page for future reference. It saves me a LOT of time looking for old articles that may no longer exist.