Are NEW Heritage Guitars Still a Good Value?

[Hfan]

Damn I didn't think they took that much out of them. The Specials and Juniors I believe are still solid. My Special is 9.2 lbs..doesn't bother me on my La Z Boy.

 

Hangar, I'd love to hear the story but it's up to you.

 

I still have a bit of a soft spot for the G brand, think it's in my DNA or something. Stumbled on a VOS CS 62 SG Standard on CL, looks unplayed from a collector. Looks exactly like my 1960 LP SG I played in high school but is twice the guitar. Stupid cheap again, love CL. The SGs would be hard to weight relieve ha ha.

[C9Y]

There are those who think that the heavier denser wood is better. Others want the lighter weight. I think there is more to it than just the weight of the wood. My most resonant solid body is swamp ash tele that's under 7 lbs.

 

Like you I have issues with heavy guitars. That's led me away from the traditional (in my case my 157 at 9.5 lbs) to a Mille, 535 and an old 140. I get most of the LP tones I need from the Mille and 140. If I was ordering a new 150 or 157, it would be an LW. I have really liked the sound of the chambered guitars.

 

As for why Heritage doesn't source the lighter stuff, they won't have the pull that Gibson has. I'm sure Gibson uses more mahogany blanks in a week than Heritage uses in a year.

 

Ren gave me the heavier is more resonant speech. My 150 is on the heavy side, even though I asked for weight limits.

 

I was fortunate enough to tour the Nashville Gibson Custom Shop earlier this year. The most amazing thing? It's a very great deal like 225 Parsons, and the employees are really friendly, nice guys and gals. You can see the process at GCS stems from Kalamazoo, I believe Jim went down and helped at least Gibson USA set up, if not the GCS.

 

They are very careful with their wood, we got at least a 20 minute talk about the different types as we went through the stacks of wood. They are super picky. Stuff they had marked B grade looked great to me. A couple of tidbits, the more open grain with the occasional mineral streak is eastern maple. The very tight flame or tiger stripe (think PRS tops) is western big leaf maple. I asked whether figure makes any difference in the sound? Answer, none. What they did say makes the best sounding Les Paul (>70% of their output is LPs) is the heaviest, densest maple cap mated to the lightest mahogony back. The R reissues have strict weight limits, all under 9 lb. total, I forget the exact number.

 

Unlike the pantograph machine at Heritage for solid body carving, they've got two large CNC machines doing the rough cut, and boy are they busy. In the northeast corner are the five guys who make archtops and hollowbodies (the 335 types are made in Memphis, not Nashville). They have an 18 month backorder on Super 400s, etc. Now there you see techniques and carving plates exactly like Kalamazoo, with many of the master templates having been brought down from there.

 

Right next to the archtops are the mandolins, the F5 type with the really cool peghead and scrolls. I asked if you could do custom orders for finish on a Super 400, for example, etc., and the answer was right now, unfortunately not. They're hoping corporate will open that program back up because they love doing custom orders.

 

The binding, buffing, scraping, all exactly the same as at Parsons Street, just more people -- no robots there (Martin and Taylor having buffing robots).

 

The only areas we weren't allowed to see was the aging room and finishing, beyond looking in the window. The aging room because they don't want their techniques out, and finishing because they don't have an airlock like at Gibson USA, and don't want any sawdust to migrate into finishing. Gibson USA does staggering volumes, 500 guitars per day. I don't know how that compares back to Kalamazoo in the 60s, but you can see they're extremely busy. There's a pretty good YT tour on Gibson USA.

 

I got the distinct impression that the people there love what they do, and take the best care they can, just like our pals at 225 Parsons. There are lot more similarities than differences, really, right down to neat people.

 

C9Y

[skydog52]

 

Ren gave me the heavier is more resonant speech. My 150 is on the heavy side, even though I asked for weight limits.

 

I was fortunate enough to tour the Nashville Gibson Custom Shop earlier this year. The most amazing thing? It's a very great deal like 225 Parsons, and the employees are really friendly, nice guys and gals. You can see the process at GCS stems from Kalamazoo, I believe Jim went down and helped at least Gibson USA set up, if not the GCS.

 

They are very careful with their wood, we got at least a 20 minute talk about the different types as we went through the stacks of wood. They are super picky. Stuff they had marked B grade looked great to me. A couple of tidbits, the more open grain with the occasional mineral streak is eastern maple. The very tight flame or tiger stripe (think PRS tops) is western big leaf maple. I asked whether figure makes any difference in the sound? Answer, none. What they did say makes the best sounding Les Paul (>70% of their output is LPs) is the heaviest, densest maple cap mated to the lightest mahogony back. The R reissues have strict weight limits, all under 9 lb. total, I forget the exact number.

 

Unlike the pantograph machine at Heritage for solid body carving, they've got two large CNC machines doing the rough cut, and boy are they busy. In the northeast corner are the five guys who make archtops and hollowbodies (the 335 types are made in Memphis, not Nashville). They have an 18 month backorder on Super 400s, etc. Now there you see techniques and carving plates exactly like Kalamazoo, with many of the master templates having been brought down from there.

 

Right next to the archtops are the mandolins, the F5 type with the really cool peghead and scrolls. I asked if you could do custom orders for finish on a Super 400, for example, etc., and the answer was right now, unfortunately not. They're hoping corporate will open that program back up because they love doing custom orders.

 

The binding, buffing, scraping, all exactly the same as at Parsons Street, just more people -- no robots there (Martin and Taylor having buffing robots).

 

The only areas we weren't allowed to see was the aging room and finishing, beyond looking in the window. The aging room because they don't want their techniques out, and finishing because they don't have an airlock like at Gibson USA, and don't want any sawdust to migrate into finishing. Gibson USA does staggering volumes, 500 guitars per day. I don't know how that compares back to Kalamazoo in the 60s, but you can see they're extremely busy. There's a pretty good YT tour on Gibson USA.

 

I got the distinct impression that the people there love what they do, and take the best care they can, just like our pals at 225 Parsons. There are lot more similarities than differences, really, right down to neat people.

 

C9Y

Good info C9Y. Thanks for sharing this.

[Spectrum13]

Good info C9Y. Thanks for sharing this.

Thank you C9Y. My take-away. Heritage = Gibson Custom Shop Quality Equal - Heritage more affordable. 150s weight more than LPs. Custom options not available on Gibson.

 

Having the neck rolled custom, choice of pickups & lower street price make the Heritage a better value to me.

[rockabilly69]

Thank you C9Y. My take-away. Quality Equal - Heritage more affordable. 150s weight more than LPs. Custom options not available on Gibson.

 

Having the neck rolled custom, choice of pickups & lower street price make the Heritage a better value to me.

Heritage = Gibson Custom Shop - Not Quite...

 

not until they use better/lighter hardware, dump the Nashville bridge, start using hide glue on the neck joint, and get lighter mahogany. And Heritage necks are not shaped as nice as the new Gibson custom shop necks, and not rolled any better, I have 2 great examples of H150's, that I would put up against anybodys H150, and have played quite a few 2013 Gibson custom shop Les Pauls. The new underwound Gibson pickups are the best pickups Gibson has made since the PAF was invented, and I think they outshine anything Duncan makes outside of their custom shop for PAF flavor.

 

my take...I think Heritage lies between Gibson USA and Gibson Custom shop, and yes they are good value and made with high quality. But if I could have only one of either, I would a choose 2013 Gibson Historic everytime, which in my opinion are the best produced Les Pauls Gibson have done since the 50's. Are they overpriced? Yep, but I would just wait a while, a find a used one.

[rockabilly69]

Does Gibson even do LPs without swiss cheese bodies anymore? I haven't played any new LP in years that felt or sounded solid.

 

Heritage is a good value for what it is, and a crazy value compared to the Gibson custom shop, which I find to be a rip-off.

 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Yes even Gibson USA has a few none weight relieved Standards which they just started this year!

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LPNTDLBCH-13/ The weight is 8lbs 14oz

 

I paid $2400 for my Heritage H150 vs $2249 for the new Les Paul Traditional. I think this guitar

is a good apples to apples comparison between Heritage and Gibson.

[Gitfiddler]

Does Gibson even do LPs without swiss cheese bodies anymore? I haven't played any new LP in years that felt or sounded solid.

 

Heritage is a good value for what it is, and a crazy value compared to the Gibson custom shop, which I find to be a rip-off.

 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

Once in a while even Gibson USA puts out special editions, some of which are solid, non-chambered or Swiss cheesed, and a decent value...especially used.

This 60th Anniversary LP is one of the best solid body gits I've ever played. Real Rosewood and P90's that are down right rude and pissed off when pushed.

 

Mine weighs 9lbs, but most other 60th's were much heavier.

[HANGAR18]

Aha, the truth be told! I was wondering where this resentment towards them came from. I don't see how you could get "screwed" out of a brand new guitar, but suffice to say, we will just leave it at that.

 

 

 

Hangar, I'd love to hear the story but it's up to you.

 

 

I wrote an article on the subject of chambering a while ago during the time when Gibson started chambering their guitars... and not telling anyone they had begun doing it. Upon discovering the practice, I called Gibson to inquire (or confront them) about the practice. I also wound up talking to one of the guitar builders at PRS about this subject around the same time. Things have evolved since I wrote the article and Gibson now has different generations of chambering that one might find in their Les Pauls and they are a lot more open about the practice. I credit myself for having a small part in their coming out with the truth after I wrote a very public meltdown berating them for the practice of chambering such an iconic guitar. (I like a Les Paul design heavy (10 to 13 lbs.) and I don't like the sound or feel which a first generation chambering job produces.)

 

Long story short, I had a brand new Les Paul (back before I really discovered Heritage guitars I had a LOT of Gibson guitars), it had a lot of flaws and I sent it back to Gibson (at their request) for repair or replacement. I sent them a true solid body guitar and they sent me back a chambered guitar. The timing of my warranty claim was inadvertently perfectly timed so that the production line at Gibson was switched over to the new chambering process right in the middle of my claim. The guitar I received back was flawless but there was something different about it and I couldn't put my finger on it at the time. The story ended when I got pissed off, sold the guitar for a huge loss (as usually happens when you buy a guitar new and sell it as a used guitar) and wrote a LONG article online about the whole subject and my personal experience. I'm still bitter about the whole thing and I think those f#####s owe me a guitar.

[Guest HRB853370]

 

 

 

I wrote an article on the subject of chambering a while ago during the time when Gibson started chambering their guitars... and not telling anyone they had begun doing it. Upon discovering the practice, I called Gibson to inquire (or confront them) about the practice. I also wound up talking to one of the guitar builders at PRS about this subject around the same time. Things have evolved since I wrote the article and Gibson now has different generations of chambering that one might find in their Les Pauls and they are a lot more open about the practice. I credit myself for having a small part in their coming out with the truth after I wrote a very public meltdown berating them for the practice of chambering such an iconic guitar. (I like a Les Paul design heavy (10 to 13 lbs.) and I don't like the sound or feel which a first generation chambering job produces.)

 

Long story short, I had a brand new Les Paul (back before I really discovered Heritage guitars I had a LOT of Gibson guitars), it had a lot of flaws and I sent it back to Gibson (at their request) for repair or replacement. I sent them a true solid body guitar and they sent me back a chambered guitar. The timing of my warranty claim was inadvertently perfectly timed so that the production line at Gibson was switched over to the new chambering process right in the middle of my claim. The guitar I received back was flawless but there was something different about it and I couldn't put my finger on it at the time. The story ended when I got pissed off, sold the guitar for a huge loss (as usually happens when you buy a guitar new and sell it as a used guitar) and wrote a LONG article online about the whole subject and my personal experience. I'm still bitter about the whole thing and I think those f#####s owe me a guitar.

My recollection is that Gibson very well publicized their rollout of the new chambered models. It was all over their website as well as in their advertising brochures. They touted it as a way to lighten a Les Paul without affecting tone or sound at all. I think they pissed off many of their followers which is why they eventually introduced the LP Traditional model. I am sorry they screwed you by shipping something back to you that was not what you shipped to them in the first place. I would have sought legal action against them or filed some sort of complaint. Btw, where would you find a LP that weighs 13 lbs!!!???

[HANGAR18]

Btw, where would you find a LP that weighs 13 lbs!!!???

 

I don't perceive them to be that uncommon. I even had a Epiphone (1957? reissue) Goldtop with soapbar P90's which was probably heavier than 13lbs. as it was the heaviest guitar I have ever owned. Shoulder crushing. I think my black 157 that I traded away was 13lbs. For me, 10 lbs is good but I'm okay up to 13 lbs. (When I want to play a LP design.)

[HANGAR18]

My recollection is that Gibson very well publicized their rollout of the new chambered models. It was all over their website as well as in their advertising brochures. They touted it as a way to lighten a Les Paul without affecting tone or sound at all.

 

Nope. I scoured their web site before calling them. (If my memory serves it was around Oct/Nov 2006) Evenaually their web site started hinting at the subject without going into any detail. The chambering started with all the Les Paul models except for the Les Paul Customs which they left alonemuch later they began chambering those too and then started the chatter about light Les Pauls and weight relieved and then eventually started making a line of VOS non-weight relieved guitars. I found out about the chambering practice from a retail industry insider who also acknowledged that Gibson wasn't telling people about it at that particular time. I guess the whole who, what, when thing doesn't really matter. Those f#####s still owe me an unchambered Les Paul. (I'm not holding my breath.)

[H]

 

Those f#####s still owe me an unchambered Les Paul. (I'm not holding my breath.)

How do you pronounce '#'?

[HANGAR18]

How do you pronounce '#'?

 

Just like "truckers" except with the F sound replacing the tr at the front while one extends a middle finger in the air while speaking it. Except in your case (correct me if I'm wrong) I believe the first two fingers extended with the backs of them facing the subject would be more appropriate.

[H]

 

Just like "truckers" except with the F sound replacing the tr at the front while one extends a middle finger in the air while speaking it. Except in your case (correct me if I'm wrong) I believe the first two fingers extended with the backs of them facing the subject would be more appropriate.

The 'Agincourt Salute'

[Guest HRB853370]

 

Nope. I scoured their web site before calling them. (If my memory serves it was around Oct/Nov 2006) Evenaually their web site started hinting at the subject without going into any detail. The chambering started with all the Les Paul models except for the Les Paul Customs which they left alonemuch later they began chambering those too and then started the chatter about light Les Pauls and weight relieved and then eventually started making a line of VOS non-weight relieved guitars. I found out about the chambering practice from a retail industry insider who also acknowledged that Gibson wasn't telling people about it at that particular time. I guess the whole who, what, when thing doesn't really matter. Those f#####s still owe me an unchambered Les Paul. (I'm not holding my breath.)

Pay me some cash and me and Guido will go down there personally and get yer unchambered guitar!

[rockabilly69]

 

Nope. I scoured their web site before calling them. (If my memory serves it was around Oct/Nov 2006) Evenaually their web site started hinting at the subject without going into any detail. The chambering started with all the Les Paul models except for the Les Paul Customs which they left alonemuch later they began chambering those too and then started the chatter about light Les Pauls and weight relieved and then eventually started making a line of VOS non-weight relieved guitars. I found out about the chambering practice from a retail industry insider who also acknowledged that Gibson wasn't telling people about it at that particular time. I guess the whole who, what, when thing doesn't really matter. Those f#####s still owe me an unchambered Les Paul. (I'm not holding my breath.)

 

I don't like that Gibson held that info secret for so long!!! They have been doing the swiss cheese thing since 1982!!! I sold my 70's LP to buy a newer 1995 standard plus and I was pissed off when it went through an airport x ray scanner and I saw the Swiss cheese holes!!!! Back then was no mention about weight relieve in any of Gibsons promo materials!

[HANGAR18]

The 'Agincourt Salute'

Yep, that's the one.

 

Pay me some cash and me and Guido will go down there personally and get yer unchambered guitar!

Get me the guitar and raid the petty cash drawer while you're there.

 

 

I don't like that Gibson held that info secret for so long!!! They have been doing the swiss cheese thing since 1982!!! I sold my 70's LP to buy a newer 1995 standard plus and I was pissed off when it went through an airport x ray scanner and I saw the Swiss cheese holes!!!! Back then was no mention about weight relieve in any of Gibsons promo materials!

Standard operating procedure it seems.

[Blunote]

Heritage = Gibson Custom Shop - Not Quite...

 

not until they use better/lighter hardware, dump the Nashville bridge, start using hide glue on the neck joint, and get lighter mahogany. And Heritage necks are not shaped as nice as the new Gibson custom shop necks, and not rolled any better, I have 2 great examples of H150's, that I would put up against anybodys H150, and have played quite a few 2013 Gibson custom shop Les Pauls. The new underwound Gibson pickups are the best pickups Gibson has made since the PAF was invented, and I think they outshine anything Duncan makes outside of their custom shop for PAF flavor.

 

Alright, Dan. I can accept your critique about better hardware & lighter mahogany & pickups....but hide glue?

 

Really?