Feedback: tube vs solid state

[tsp17]

Why do tube amps have a greater tendency to feedback? Or is it just my imagination?

[H]

Your imagination feeds back? Like WOW, Scoob!

[tsp17]

Your imagination feeds back? Like WOW, Scoob!

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuude...........

[Steiner]

Why do tube amps have a greater tendency to feedback? Or is it just my imagination?

 

Because they are worth it.

[Steiner]

Ok, I checked; it's too early in to your thread for a smart assed reply. My apology.

 

When I've played side-by-side with others using SS amps, I notice more harmonics with the tube amp. The greater the number of harmonic frequencies, the more likely one is to generate resonant feedback.

 

I still say because they are worth it.

[Genericmusic]

The greater the number of harmonic frequencies, the more likely one is to generate resonant feedback.

True but I am convinced that everyone should have both in their arsenal. Last summer I saw a professional lounge guitarist using both A-B'ed together. By professional I a mean he played a very wide range of genres and styles. Sometimes he played the tube alone, sometimes the SS alone, and sometime both together. It all depended on the style of music and tone he was trying to achieve. I was very impressed.

 

BTW it is never to early for a smart assed reply IMO.

[Gitfiddler]

Wouldn't feedback be more sensitive to (or caused by) speaker diameter and direction?

 

Did the pro who compared SS to Tube rigs use comparable amps? (e.g. Roland JC120 vs. Fender Twin)

[Genericmusic]

Did the pro who compared SS to Tube rigs use comparable amps? (e.g. Roland JC120 vs. Fender Twin)

Yes, the amps were compatible. If I remember correctly he had a Roland cube series and a Fender Hot Rod series, both with 1 X 12's. He told me he has a similar set up with 2 X 12's when he plays with a big horn band. (I assumed a Roland JC120 and a Twin, he seemed that kind of guy) He played a beat-up old ES-335. I think he could have made anything sound good. He just new his equipment and made it sound very well. The fact that he was an upper tier guitar player made it all the better.

[Genericmusic]

Tube amp vs solid state amp represents two different ways to approach sound reproduction. Here is an interesting article;

 

 

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/general_music/putting_the_lie_to_claims_about_tube_amps.html

 

 

 

[JeffB]

Tube amp vs solid state amp represents two different ways to approach sound reproduction. Here is an interesting article;

 

 

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/general_music/putting_the_lie_to_claims_about_tube_amps.html

 

 

 

I read that and felt like the guy made some good points. He also made some points that a were kinda pointless.

I have 4 tube amps that really dont have too many cross over points in feel, dynamics and tone. They can approximate each other.

Even when I use the same guitar and speaker cab they are different sounding and have a different feel to play through.

The guy who wrote that blog started with the opening statement:

"The purpose of an amplifier is to reproduce a signal as accurately as possible but with a higher "output" amplitude than "input."

I think that that is only partly true. I could plug into 5 different tube amps and have 5 different core clean sounds. I could take it a step further and plug into 5 ss amps and have 5 different clean sounds.

If the true goal of every guitarist really was to reproduce the sound of the guitar as accurately as possible there would only be one amp design in the world, one cab design and one speaker design.

I think the real purpose of an amplifier, from a guitar players perspective at least, is to reproduce the guitarists idea of how his guitar sounds.

He then talks about speakers as if no one has ever considered this to be important.

"Far more important, it would seem, are the speakers and the speaker cabinet, yet nobody ever talks about these....."

He should spend more time on the internet guitar forums before posting his blogs. There is much talk of speakers and cabs as a major component of the overall tone on any forum regarding guitar.

He then goes on about tweeters. If tweeters were a desirable component in a guitar speaker cab for everyone that played guitar they wouldve been included in the design of every cab long ago. Theyve been in bass cabs for over 3-4 decades. They work well in acoustic guitar amps. Different companies have tried them in electric guitar amps. It was not an idea that was embraced by every guitar player.

It was his final paragraph and the use of the word "thus" in his opening statement that annoyed me. He might know stuff but theres other stuff he needs to consider.

his little bit of writing is opinion and seems like he considered it one morning over a cup of coffee and a few fragments of information that were rattling around in his brain left over from an internet debate he read the night before.

 

Ok. I feel better.

[JeffB]

My little bit of writing is opinion and was considered this evening over a lager.

[smurph1]

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuude...........

We are very serious bunch here..Tubes are like, well Tubular!! :}

[tsp17]

I read that and felt like the guy made some good points. He also made some points that a were kinda pointless.

I have 4 tube amps that really dont have too many cross over points in feel, dynamics and tone. They can approximate each other.

Even when I use the same guitar and speaker cab they are different sounding and have a different feel to play through.

The guy who wrote that blog started with the opening statement:

"The purpose of an amplifier is to reproduce a signal as accurately as possible but with a higher "output" amplitude than "input."

I think that that is only partly true. I could plug into 5 different tube amps and have 5 different core clean sounds. I could take it a step further and plug into 5 ss amps and have 5 different clean sounds.

If the true goal of every guitarist really was to reproduce the sound of the guitar as accurately as possible there would only be one amp design in the world, one cab design and one speaker design.

I think the real purpose of an amplifier, from a guitar players perspective at least, is to reproduce the guitarists idea of how his guitar sounds.

He then talks about speakers as if no one has ever considered this to be important.

"Far more important, it would seem, are the speakers and the speaker cabinet, yet nobody ever talks about these....."

He should spend more time on the internet guitar forums before posting his blogs. There is much talk of speakers and cabs as a major component of the overall tone on any forum regarding guitar.

He then goes on about tweeters. If tweeters were a desirable component in a guitar speaker cab for everyone that played guitar they wouldve been included in the design of every cab long ago. Theyve been in bass cabs for over 3-4 decades. They work well in acoustic guitar amps. Different companies have tried them in electric guitar amps. It was not an idea that was embraced by every guitar player.

It was his final paragraph and the use of the word "thus" in his opening statement that annoyed me. He might know stuff but theres other stuff he needs to consider.

his little bit of writing is opinion and seems like he considered it one morning over a cup of coffee and a few fragments of information that were rattling around in his brain left over from an internet debate he read the night before.

 

Ok. I feel better.

+1. I have a non-player engineer friend who also insists that the role of the amp is to "accurately reproduce....." That might be more true for acoustic or classical players, but as we know, especially in the electric world, one can choose an amp that attempts to be a pure amplification of the guitar, or one can choose it for the sound it produces in conjunction with the guitar. It is part of the tone equation. The great amplified tones we love so much are mostly not just the guitar sound only louder.

[gpuma]

While in principle I agree with you Jeff, pondering over the article made me think that maybe what the author means with "accurately reproduce...." is that if you have an amp that does just that you can add your own coloring with pre/post processing the signal. If your amp is not able to "accurately reproduce..." it is a lot tougher to remove the coloring that the amp itself is giving to the sound.

 

The problem with this line of reasoning is that pre/post processing is still not the real thing (even though I am pretty amazed by the quality of the models in my HD500). But I think modeling will get more and more traction as hardware and models develop further.

[Genericmusic]

...I think modeling will get more and more traction as hardware and models develop further.

+1

[smurph1]

The reason I like tube amps is the "coloration and warmth" they add to the tone..That being said I played a Line 6 Flextone 2 in a hard rock band I was in for several years.. That was a GREAT AMP!! So I guess for me it really depends on the style of music I'm doing..My 2 cents..

[rockabilly69]

Many times I don't use an amp at all, and I can make my small PA system, an allen and heath ZED10fx plugged straight into a Mackie HD1221, feedback

very musically. Of course I'm using my guitar and pedal board to generate the basic tone.

[yoslate]

Your imagination feeds back? Like WOW, Scoob!

 

I really do love it when the grammar police are in plain clothes...!

[Steiner]

I thought the comments after the blog were as much, or more informative than the blog.

[Yooper]

 

I am convinced that everyone should have both in their arsenal.

 

Feedback can be fun. As a fan of the Grateful Dead's old "Feedback Jams", as well as the clean Roland tones of Pat Martino, I very much like having both tube and SS. Tubes are great for Rock and Blues with solid body and semi-hollow guitars , while SS is great for arch tops, acoustics and Jazz.

 

I also like tubes for keyboards.

[TalismanRich]

I pretty much agree with the article that the major difference is the distortion characteristics.

 

Guitar amps are notoriously "non hi fi". They all have very distinct tonal colorations and this is what gives each its character. The speakers we use have a typical range of 60-5000 Hz. Add that to the distortion and the amount of headroom and you've got the basic sound of the amp.

 

As for solid state being less prone to feedback, I don't hear that. The guitar is more the source of feedback, whether it comes from the squeal of an unpotted pickup or the resonance of a hollow body archtop. All you need is sufficient volume to excite the proper frequency.

[Guest HRB853370]

I pretty much agree with the article that the major difference is the distortion characteristics.

 

Guitar amps are notoriously "non hi fi". They all have very distinct tonal colorations and this is what gives each its character. The speakers we use have a typical range of 60-5000 Hz. Add that to the distortion and the amount of headroom and you've got the basic sound of the amp.

 

As for solid state being less prone to feedback, I don't hear that. The guitar is more the source of feedback, whether it comes from the squeal of an unpotted pickup or the resonance of a hollow body archtop. All you need is sufficient volume to excite the proper frequency.

So not all amps are alike? Darn, back to square one!

[tbonesullivan]

Well, you have to keep in mind that the sound coming out of an electric guitar is generally very mid-heavy, and not exactly a great sound at all. The "job" of a guitar amplifier is partly to amplify the sound, and partly to make it sound good.

 

With an acoustic guitar, or even a bass guitar, it is much more of a straight "amplification" without any of the extra stuff.

 

Originally, all amplifiers were pretty much the same. It wasn't until later that they got more diversified. Also, a lot of the "character" that people talk about has to do with how the amp breaks up as it is pushed louder. Strictly speaking, you usually do not want breakup/overdrive/etc when amplifying a signal. It was somewhat serendipitous that the sound was "good" when people started blasting their bassmans and reverbs, and that due to the different availability of tubes and speakers in England, a much different sound came out over there when using mostly the same circuitry. Had it sounded horrible, the amp world today would be much different, as would the guitar world.

 

My feelings are that solid state amps are MUCH better than they used to be, even before we get to the "modelling amps" prevalent today. The peavey transtube amp has a very nice overdrive, and the compression control on the power amp does make it feel "somewhat" like a tube amp. Mind you, i've had little opportunity to play a tube amp loud enough to get the "real compression". If you gig with a backup amp, take a solid state. not as heavy, and less likely to die on you.

 

I also know more than a few players who swear by the Tech 21 trademark 60 as their go-to live amp. It's all solid state but the design and sound are top notch.

[212Mavguy]

Excellent! My ears are really stubborn, my brain is even worse. They want to hear tube amps and have a really snotty attitude, the worst kind of cork sniffer one against SS equipment, period. Then I started to turn to the dark side with the acquisition of a multi effects pedal from TC Electronics called the Nova System. It spanked me. I'm getting some very sweet tones with the help of that SS PO...equipment. For me, even ordered harmonics are a tonal grail, to get a feedback and sustain that displays the fundamental(s) at multiple octaves above as a host of voices from a single guitar. Only problem is that the overwhelming majority of guitar amps are designed to more accentuate the odd order harmonics that appear an octave and a fifth above the fundamental. I keep reading over and over that SS stuff does wierd harmonics, can't do evens, and yes, it sure can... am getting some really sweet even ordered harmonics with my amps using that pedal. Go figure.

So now if someone gifted me with an Axe-fx I'd gladly stick it in my amp stable. Yet, because even though the newest modelers do their thang incredibly well, (Yes, I admit it) with a swap of a speaker and/or certain preamp tube I now have a brand and type real tube amp tone not in any modeler's inventory. And that's before swapping out resistors and various caps...Still sounds like that amp when done "right", but there is something ah..."special" now.