Deluxe Reverb Out-of Phase Issue Resolution

[schundog]

After I got my DRRI several years ago, I started following some of the threads about them on the Fender Discussion Page. One guy over there really knows his DRs, and posted this very simple mod to move reverb over to the normal channel and put both channels in phase, allowing for the jumpering of channels without the out-of-phase issues.

 

Fritz also has several other mods to the DRRI on the FDP site that I have not tried, but since this issue recently came up in Rob's new amp thread, I thought I'd mention it, and give it it's own thread so it didn't get lost in the mix. I hope this helps!

 

 

Disclaimer: While I had this mod done to my amp by an amp tech friend, don't try it unless you know what you are doing. High voltages and all that stuff.

 

Here's the link:

 

http://fenderforum.com/userphotos/index.html?recid=48201

 

And here's a link to a pic of the mod once finished, with some more explanation.

 

http://www.fenderforum.com/userphotos/index.html?recid=64923

[rockabilly69]

The only reason I would do that mod to a Deluxe Reverb is if I was using a Stereo guitar (ie ES345, ES355) and wanted an amp channel for the 2 outputs of the guitar. But for mono guitars, instead of jumpering the amp, I just pull the V1 tube from the Normal channel, which I NEVER use. This mod helps get the Deluxe into the ZONE, and I think it sounds FAR better than any jumpered amp, and is easier to dial in the tone!

 

From the Fender Amp Guru site...

 

Pull out the V1 normal channel preamp tube for more preamp gain in vibrato channel

 

We’ll start with saying that this is a must have mod. It is so easy to enable and disable that it can hardly be called a mod. If you are like most players and only use the Vibrato channel (reverb, tremolo, the brigth cap and the extra gain stage), you should pull out the V1 tube. This is the preamp tube for the normal channel which you are not using. Vice versa; If you’re using the Normal channel, you can pull out the V2 tube. All AB763-similar circuits (Deluxe Reverb, Super Reverb, Pro Reverb, Twin Reverb, Vibroverb, Vibrolux) are designed so that signal is leaking between the two channels. The amp will play louder at the same volume knob setting when pulling the V1/V2 tube that you’re not using. The stronger signal will push the second gain stage (V4 tube) harder and give you increased sustain, compression and harmomics. This mod does not change the amp’s clean headroom.

[schundog]

Interesting, Daniel. Do you know if pulling that 1st preamp tube makes the tubes in the vibrato channel wear out any quicker? Sorry if that's a stupid question.

[H]

What's a PCB?

[rockabilly69]

Interesting, Daniel. Do you know if pulling that 1st preamp tube makes the tubes in the vibrato channel wear out any quicker? Sorry if that's a stupid question.

Not that I've noticed, but I use high quality NOS tubes, and I only use that amp for special gigs and recording, after all it's from the very first production run (jan 1964), so I don't abuse it, like some of my other amps!

[yoslate]

Well.... I hope this doesn't count as a hijack, Brian. Ironic, I just returned from Dale's, to find this thread. Dale's my amp guy, and I almost never go over there that I don't wind up slapping up a vein.... Here's what we did with my new Deluxe re-ish. Pulled the V1 (Daniel, you are the instigator on this one). Replaced the Groove Tube preamp tubes with 7025 TAD's. Put a JJ 12AU7 in the reverb spot. Then, after auditioning about ten different speakers with the amp (Dale has the wall of speakers, each with its own 1/4" jack, I've described here, before), we stuffed an Eminence Red Coat Tonker into the cab. The Tonker is Eminence's take on a Green Back. So.... No need to jumper anymore. The thing sounds glorious! Have a gig for every Wednesday night in June, with some friends who will get rude with some pretty deep stuff. Can't wait to take the Tele and this version of the Deluxe out for that!

[H]

The 12AU7 will give you finer control over the reverb, Rob. I'll bet you never took it much over four/five before.

[yoslate]

The 12AU7 will give you finer control over the reverb, Rob. I'll bet you never took it much over four/five before.

 

On almost every Fender amp I've ever owned, never above "3," Howard. This one was a little more twitchy that the others, so, yes, the 12AU7 tamed it a bit.

[schundog]

Good stuff, All! I've never tried a different speaker OR the removal of the first preamp tube OR a different reverb tube; It looks like I may have some fun exploring to do!

[H]

Good stuff, All! I've never tried a different speaker OR the removal of the first preamp tube OR a different reverb tube; It looks like I may have some fun exploring to do!

Have a read of this for more tips: http://fenderguru.com/amps/deluxe-reverb

 

These guys know their Fender amps

[noonesperfect]

What's a PCB?

Printed circuit board

[MrB]

I've read the article about pulling V1 before, but the description

 

The stronger signal will push the second gain stage (V4 tube) harder and give you increased sustain, compression and harmomics. This mod does not change the amp’s clean headroom.

 

always counded a bit contradictory to me. Increasing compression/harmonics implies it's going into

overdrive mode, which means the clean headroom is reduced.

 

I've got a related question for the tube-heads in the cult. I want to keep both channels running

on my DRRI, but would like one (preferably the Vibrato channel) to have maximum clean headroom,

while the other hits the 'sweet spot', with compression and mild warm overdrive, at low volume

levels. I have an A/B switch to toggle between them.

Any ideas? What if I put a very low output tube in the preamp slot of that channel? Wouldn't

that reduce the output in that channel, so I could crank up that volume pot way up, overdrive

that valve, and still have low volume output?

 

Or am I completely unaware of how electricity works? `,:-)

 

Mr B

[H]

I've read the article about pulling V1 before, but the description

 

The stronger signal will push the second gain stage (V4 tube) harder and give you increased sustain, compression and harmomics. This mod does not change the amps clean headroom.

 

always counded a bit contradictory to me. Increasing compression/harmonics implies it's going into

overdrive mode, which means the clean headroom is reduced.

 

I've got a related question for the tube-heads in the cult. I want to keep both channels running

on my DRRI, but would like one (preferably the Vibrato channel) to have maximum clean headroom,

while the other hits the 'sweet spot', with compression and mild warm overdrive, at low volume

levels. I have an A/B switch to toggle between them.

Any ideas? What if I put a very low output tube in the preamp slot of that channel? Wouldn't

that reduce the output in that channel, so I could crank up that volume pot way up, overdrive

that valve, and still have low volume output?

 

Or am I completely unaware of how electricity works? `,:-)

 

Mr B

Try a 12AY7 in V2 - it's a cheap way to find out whether this will work (probably) and whether you will like the noise produced (completely subjective)

[tulk1]

Mr. B, from my experience, albeit with a Tweed 5E3, when I put a lower gain pre-amp tube (12AT, 12AU) in it was to reduce the overall gain of that channel. If you want more gain, sooner, you'd want a hotter 12AX-whatever. I'm not the biggest fan of JJ pre's, but they do offer them in different grades of expected gain. And they aren't that expensive to try. In fact, it was a JJ I was replacing when I used the 12AU in my 5E3. Worked for me.

[H]

Printed circuit board

I know, I was just being cork-sniffy

[H]

Try a 12AY7 in V2 - it's a cheap way to find out whether this will work (probably) and whether you will like the noise produced (completely subjective)

Apologies - you wanted channel one to change so that means swapping out V1.

[yoslate]

To echo Kenny's experience, I had a Hot Rod Deville for about three days, before I wised up. The overdrive channel was spiky, nasty, prickly...very short on headroom. I replaced the AX's with AU's, and it did much to bring it to heel. Still didn't like the thing, and unloaded it.

[Kuz]

Here is an alternate take given to me from my buddy, and former HOCer Mike (Slider13).

 

The reason pulling V1 (normal channel) will increase the overall gain to the amp is because V1 & V2 (Reverb channel) ARE related. Mike doesn't like pulling V1, even though many do including SRV. He said you are pushing the amp harder and it is harder on the Transformers, ect.... BUT what he does do, and it approximates this affect some, is to put a slightly HOTTER tube in V1 and it will bleed over into V2 when you play through the Reverb channel. Mike can give me all the rational behind it again if you guys would like, but the bottom line is that .5 of the gain from V1 is returned to V2 normally so a hotter tube in V1 will fatten the tone in V2.

 

Now having said all that, this is most useful in a BRIGHT amp where you want to thicken the tone (or maybe when using single coils over humbuckers). I tried this and could definitely hear a difference. That said, I didn't care for it. Some of the chime & articulation is lost while fattening the tone.

 

I am a FIRM believer in a GREAT clean tone from your amp will yield the BEST OD tones with a pedal. I ALWAYS use an OD and rarely turn the Deluxe Reverb up over 3. So I don't particularly like a blackface breaking up on it's own, if you do the above "mods" may be to your liking.

 

Give it a try and see if it works for you!!

[pegleg32]

I am a FIRM believer in a GREAT clean tone from your amp will yield the BEST OD tones with a pedal. I ALWAYS use an OD and rarely turn the Deluxe Reverb up over 3. So I don't particularly like a blackface breaking up on it's own, if you do the above "mods" may be to your liking.

 

 

I sure agree with Kuz on this one. There are a lot of folks who talk about playing straight into the amp and getting wonderful tones, and I'm sure they do. but I believe in getting the fullest clean tone I can find, and then using pedals for various flavors. For one thing, it allows one amp to do multiple jobs by using different pedals on the same board.

[fxdx99]

Kinda related to this thread... at least the DR part. I'm going to play thru one in an upcoming gig w/backline provided. While my Allen is 'DR based', it's not a DR and it's been ages since I've plugged into one. I recall usually plugging into channel 2, input 1. What are your typical settings (vol/tone) when using a tele at 'gig volume' (I'll have a pedal for od/push)?

[tulk1]

Kinda related to this thread... at least the DR part. I'm going to play thru one in an upcoming gig w/backline provided. While my Allen is 'DR based', it's not a DR and it's been ages since I've plugged into one. I recall usually plugging into channel 2, input 1. What are your typical settings (vol/tone) when using a tele at 'gig volume' (I'll have a pedal for od/push)?

[H]

I've heard setting DRs initially at 6 on vol, treble and bass gets you at a great start point.

[rockabilly69]

If you've ever spent some time with a Deluxe Reverb you'll find the clean tone is not what it's all about! If you want clean get yourself a twin or a super. A pedal through a Deluxe Reverb is a pale version of what a DR is all about. They don't start even sounding like a Deluxe until they get wound up, PERIOD (at least 6 or 7 on the volume)! If you're in situations were you can't wind them up use a Princeton. Because a Deluxe before the cranked sweet spot is basically a boring amp. They aren't made to sound good in your bedroom, they are for live performing, like a medium sized club or better! When they hit anything above 6 on the volume, with the bass knob below 4, they start sustaing in a magic way. I was in a room the other day with two vintage Deluxes, and below 6, they they didn't sound much better than the PCB version, but soon as they got cranked they both got the tone that put's a smile on your face and makes guitar playing fun. They are awesome when you can't use the bigger 50 and 100 watt amps. If you're using a pedal in front of a Deluxe Reverb it's a compromise for low volume situations. Yes there are a few good pedals that work well with them (KLON, Zendrive), but these pedals are around to simulate what the Deluxe Reverb does when wound up. And what that IS, is a ridiculous touch sensitivity, and killer sustaining, fat tone! I've tried almost every pedal made that is supposed to get THAT sound, but NOTHING does. The closest was a Gold Klon, but even that wasn't like the real deal. And, I have over 600 gigs on my Deluxe Reverb with the V1 pulled, and my amp has never blipped. Hell, my amp never left the backseat of my car for over two years! And the guy that works on my amps, who can recite every blackface circuit from memory, is probably one of the most knowledgeable Fender amp guys out there, also pulls the V1 tube. Neither one of us has had a single problem with the transformers from this mod. And that is the only mod I know that gets the gain where it needs to be at a little lower volume. Ceaser Diaz wouldn't have pulled V1 in Stevie's amps if he thought they would make the amps unreliable. Stevie played at earbleading volumes and was ridiculously hard on his amps! I know, I stood right next to his amp rig twice! Another thing, the stock speakers in Deluxes are not very good, they also need to be pulled, or you can expect flabby lowend at best.

[yoslate]

If you've ever spent some time with a Deluxe Reverb you'll find the clean tone is not what it's all about! If you want clean get yourself a twin or a super. A pedal through a Deluxe Reverb is a pale version of what a DR is all about. They don't start even sounding like a Deluxe until they get wound up, PERIOD (at least 6 or 7 on the volume)! If you're in situations were you can't wind them up use a Princeton. Because a Deluxe before the cranked sweet spot is basically a boring amp. They aren't made to sound good in your bedroom, they are for live performing, like a medium sized club or better! When they hit anything above 6 on the volume, with the bass knob below 4, they start sustaing in a magic way. I was in a room the other day with two vintage Deluxes, and below 6, they they didn't sound much better than the PCB version, but soon as they got cranked they both got the tone that put's a smile on your face and makes guitar playing fun. They are awesome when you can't use the bigger 50 and 100 watt amps. If you're using a pedal in front of a Deluxe Reverb it's a compromise for low volume situations. Yes there are a few good pedals that work well with them (KLON, Zendrive), but these pedals are around to simulate what the Deluxe Reverb does when wound up. And what that IS, is a ridiculous touch sensitivity, and killer sustaining, fat tone! I've tried almost every pedal made that is supposed to get THAT sound, but NOTHING does. The closest was a Gold Klon, but even that wasn't like the real deal. And, I have over 600 gigs on my Deluxe Reverb with the V1 pulled, and my amp has never blipped. Hell, my amp never left the backseat of my car for over two years! And the guy that works on my amps, who can recite every blackface circuit from memory, is probably one of the most knowledgeable Fender amp guys out there, also pulls the V1 tube. Neither one of us has had a single problem with the transformers from this mod. And that is the only mod I know that gets the gain where it needs to be at a little lower volume. Ceaser Diaz wouldn't have pulled V1 in Stevie's amps if he thought they would make the amps unreliable. Stevie played at earbleading volumes and was ridiculously hard on his amps! I know, I stood right next to his amp rig twice! Another thing, the stock speakers in Deluxes are not very good, they also need to be pulled, or you can expect flabby lowend at best.

 

Can I get a witness...?!

 

Can't take issue with a word Daniel has said. But.... I have volume issues. I've played Deluxes which were not well maintained and had issues with flubbiness (is that even a word?). The more they were turned up, the more they sounded "like geese farts on a muggy day." I've played some that were clean and crisp, and wanted to be pushed more than I was willing to, given the venue layout, or what was transpiring musically. "6" with a strong Deluxe, in most venues around here, is what I would consider too much. I try to make sure the context allows me to stay at "3" or "4." And, to answer Randy's question, I usually have the bass and the treble around "6," (depending on the guitar) and the reverb at "3." Interesting side note: I saw some pictures the other day of a friend, whose band opened for Bob Seger a few of weeks ago. They were playing The Charlotte Coliseum, in front of 15,000. There, mic'ed on the floor just behind him, was Joey's trusty silver face Deluxe.

[Kuz]

If you've ever spent some time with a Deluxe Reverb you'll find the clean tone is not what it's all about! If you want clean get yourself a twin or a super. A pedal through a Deluxe Reverb is a pale version of what a DR is all about. They don't start even sounding like a Deluxe until they get wound up, PERIOD (at least 6 or 7 on the volume)! If you're in situations were you can't wind them up use a Princeton. Because a Deluxe before the cranked sweet spot is basically a boring amp. They aren't made to sound good in your bedroom, they are for live performing, like a medium sized club or better! When they hit anything above 6 on the volume, with the bass knob below 4, they start sustaing in a magic way. I was in a room the other day with two vintage Deluxes, and below 6, they they didn't sound much better than the PCB version, but soon as they got cranked they both got the tone that put's a smile on your face and makes guitar playing fun. They are awesome when you can't use the bigger 50 and 100 watt amps. If you're using a pedal in front of a Deluxe Reverb it's a compromise for low volume situations. Yes there are a few good pedals that work well with them (KLON, Zendrive), but these pedals are around to simulate what the Deluxe Reverb does when wound up. And what that IS, is a ridiculous touch sensitivity, and killer sustaining, fat tone! I've tried almost every pedal made that is supposed to get THAT sound, but NOTHING does. The closest was a Gold Klon, but even that wasn't like the real deal. And, I have over 600 gigs on my Deluxe Reverb with the V1 pulled, and my amp has never blipped. Hell, my amp never left the backseat of my car for over two years! And the guy that works on my amps, who can recite every blackface circuit from memory, is probably one of the most knowledgeable Fender amp guys out there, also pulls the V1 tube. Neither one of us has had a single problem with the transformers from this mod. And that is the only mod I know that gets the gain where it needs to be at a little lower volume. Ceaser Diaz wouldn't have pulled V1 in Stevie's amps if he thought they would make the amps unreliable. Stevie played at earbleading volumes and was ridiculously hard on his amps! I know, I stood right next to his amp rig twice! Another thing, the stock speakers in Deluxes are not very good, they also need to be pulled, or you can expect flabby lowend at best.

 

I can't argue with most of what you said, except the point the amp HAS TO BE ON 6 VOLUME wise. It is not a boring amp on 3-4, especially biased at 70%. My pedals sound incredible through it, especially the Ethos pedal. What I like about having the amp at 3 or 4 and using a pedal, is now you have a two channel amp (clean & dirty).

 

Daniel, I respect you as a player and person very much so we will have to agree to disagree. And that is what's so wonderful about music & tone.... it's all subjective!!!

 

Also, remember SRV blew up his share of amps!!! ha, ha,