Kilns, Wood, Nuts and Moisture and unplugged resonance

[Jmundell]

Hey All,

 

Just got a PRS DGT this week and noticed how much more acoustically resonant it is than my H150. Actually met Paul tonight and he had some interesting things to say about building guitars. He had a really cool demo where he had a piece of wood that had been dried and treated for maximum resonance and would toss nut blanks onto it to show how they resonated. The plastic nuts were absolutely lifeless. The bone nut sounded great and his nut that he uses with brass or something like that IIRC sounded even better. Looking at my H150, not sure but it looks like it's a plastic nut?

 

Then he talked about how his woods are dried to 7% moisture for months, obsessively and that other makers were over 10% on average when he took them apart. Now I'd imagine that's usually a stock fender or gibson he's talking about. How carefully are Heritage woods selected and how dry are they from the kiln? Anybody know if they're obsessed with making their woods resonate better at certain moisture levels?

 

It seems that one of the major things people talk about in older instruments is that they've had time to "dry out" and that's why an old 59 burst is the most resonant guitar ever...

 

I think I would like to find a way to help my H150 resonate better. Is there a way to dry it further if it's over 10%? Maybe a bone nut would help?

 

[TalismanRich]

Remember that the nut is only in the action when you are NOT fretting a string. The bridge is in the action 100% of the time, so that would be the first place to look for improving sustain.

 

I don't know if drying the wood will really accomplish a lot as the wood with tend to breathe over time and absorbs moisture. Typically acoustic guitars are humidified to prevent them from drying out which can cause splits and cracks to develop. A solid body with a polyester or UV cured finish will block the transmission of moisture. Nitro will allow moisture to migrate through the finish, although it's a very slow process. An old guitar that has been in a humid environment for 50 years won't be at the same moisture content that it was when it was made.

[rockabilly69]

I used to work in music atore that sold PRS guitars. It was 12 years and my last day job. We had typically 4 of 5 of them In stock at a time and none of them resonated anymore than my Historic Les Paul. My H150s resonate as much as my Les Paul. I think you have to take it on guitar by guitar basis. On my H150s I also change the bridge, tailpiece, and studs, and I think that makes more of difference than the 3% humidty:) I use to own a PRS singlecut, it was a nice guitar, but I prefer my H150s. I'm sure there are plenty of smoking PRS guitars though!

[H]

I'm pretty sure I'll get shot down quickly here but my take is this: if you're playing a 150 unamplified then body resonance may play a large part in the sound you hear. Amplified it's a much smaller part of the equation.

 

Fenders and others encased in poly finishes still sound great in the right hands - often they're made with pretty cheap wood, multi-part bodies, bolt-on necks and all.

 

Yoslate has a pretty good saying for this endless search for tonal nirvana. I'll leave it to him

[Jmundell]

Remember that the nut is only in the action when you are NOT fretting a string. The bridge is in the action 100% of the time, so that would be the first place to look for improving sustain.

 

I don't know if drying the wood will really accomplish a lot as the wood with tend to breathe over time and absorbs moisture. Typically acoustic guitars are humidified to prevent them from drying out which can cause splits and cracks to develop. A solid body with a polyester or UV cured finish will block the transmission of moisture. Nitro will allow moisture to migrate through the finish, although it's a very slow process. An old guitar that has been in a humid environment for 50 years won't be at the same moisture content that it was when it was made.

That's a great point about the nut. I'm still trying to figure out about the water content thing.

 

I took the same strings that are on my PRS and put them on the H150. It's now almost as loud but the volume is in the upper mids and treble with a little bass. The DGT is so much more full sounding and full of harmonic content. Plugged in, the strings really helped the H150 out. Also, I had the Duncan Joe Bonamassa PAF replica in the guitar and with the weakened A2/A3 mags, I'm sure that was keeping it from the same presence. I threw the Duncan 59's in and they're actually damn nice but not quite what I'm looking for. Going to install some Dimarzio 36th PAF because they're designed to smooth the top end and push the mid/bass a bit while simulating a weakened mag field yet retaining full strength punch. Hoping his patent on 42guage mismatched coils can capture a great yet punchy tone that works clean and driven.

 

What bridge would you upgrade to? Seems mine came with a traditional LP style bridge instead of the schaller.

[Jmundell]

I used to work in music atore that sold PRS guitars. It was 12 years and my last day job. We had typically 4 of 5 of them In stock at a time and none of them resonated anymore than my Historic Les Paul. My H150s resonate as much as my Les Paul. I think you have to take it on guitar by guitar basis. On my H150s I also change the bridge, tailpiece, and studs, and I think that makes more of difference than the 3% humidty:) I use to own a PRS singlecut, it was a nice guitar, but I prefer my H150s. I'm sure there are plenty of smoking PRS guitars though!

I did as well for 5.5 years. We were one of the boutique oriented GC's. Had 25+ Tom Andersons, 15-20 PRS and 5-10 Gibson & Fender custom shop at all times. It's funny, PRS didn't use to impress me because their pickups were very 80's rack oriented but they've made some radical improvements in the last 3-5 years, IMO.

I went with Heritage for my LP because of the often terrible quality I've seen from Gibson but they seem to be very on point this year but their prices certainly are not.

 

What do you upgrade your bridge/tailpiece and studs too?

[Ned]

Move to New Mexico. You will never again wish for a dry guitar.

[Jmundell]

Move to New Mexico. You will never again wish for a dry guitar.

Well, I'm in Seattle so maybe a happy Medium like California would help my tone

[TalismanRich]

That's a great point about the nut. I'm still trying to figure out about the water content thing.

 

I took the same strings that are on my PRS and put them on the H150. It's now almost as loud but the volume is in the upper mids and treble with a little bass. The DGT is so much more full sounding and full of harmonic content. Plugged in, the strings really helped the H150 out. Also, I had the Duncan Joe Bonamassa PAF replica in the guitar and with the weakened A2/A3 mags, I'm sure that was keeping it from the same presence. I threw the Duncan 59's in and they're actually damn nice but not quite what I'm looking for. Going to install some Dimarzio 36th PAF because they're designed to smooth the top end and push the mid/bass a bit while simulating a weakened mag field yet retaining full strength punch. Hoping his patent on 42guage mismatched coils can capture a great yet punchy tone that works clean and driven.

 

What bridge would you upgrade to? Seems mine came with a traditional LP style bridge instead of the schaller.

I haven't changed the bridge on any of my guitars at this point., so I can't really suggest a replacement, other that to say that there are those who sing the praises of Faber. People always wanted to put TonePros stuff on, and now that they come with TonePros as stock, they are pulling THOSE off. I think some of it is a "grass is greener" syndrome.

 

One other thing to remember is that the PRS has a 25" scale. That's going to have a harmonic structure that the Heritage will never exactly match, just as you'll never exactly match the tone structure of a Fender 25.5" scale.

 

There are those who say that the reason that old guitars sound better is that the resins in the wood have crystallized over the years. That all sound logical except I like to point out that people who were playing these guitars in 1965 were playing 6 year old guitars. No telling how old the wood was when the guitar was made, but given that my 157 was made 10 years ago, it should ring like a bell according to those theories.

 

I think that each piece of wood has a resonant characteristic and that some are better than others. A year and a half ago, I bought a Melancon Pro Artist T (tele style). That was the most lively, resonant guitar I have ever held. Its swamp ash, and I've played lots of other swamp ash guitars, but for me that particular one was special. When those special ones come along, its a wonderful thing.

[Jmundell]

I haven't changed the bridge on any of my guitars at this point., so I can't really suggest a replacement, other that to say that there are those who sing the praises of Faber. People always wanted to put TonePros stuff on, and now that they come with TonePros as stock, they are pulling THOSE off. I think some of it is a "grass is greener" syndrome.

 

One other thing to remember is that the PRS has a 25" scale. That's going to have a harmonic structure that the Heritage will never exactly match, just as you'll never exactly match the tone structure of a Fender 25.5" scale.

 

There are those who say that the reason that old guitars sound better is that the resins in the wood have crystallized over the years. That all sound logical except I like to point out that people who were playing these guitars in 1965 were playing 6 year old guitars. No telling how old the wood was when the guitar was made, but given that my 157 was made 10 years ago, it should ring like a bell according to those theories.

 

I think that each piece of wood has a resonant characteristic and that some are better than others. A year and a half ago, I bought a Melancon Pro Artist T (tele style). That was the most lively, resonant guitar I have ever held. Its swamp ash, and I've played lots of other swamp ash guitars, but for me that particular one was special. When those special ones come along, its a wonderful thing.

Agreed. Paul was also actually talking about getting his woods to crystallize before they leave and didn't mention it because I've studied guitars up and down and only heard of crystallized wood in the last 24 hours. It sounded like fufu when he said it but when you mentioned it, it makes me wonder.

 

I'm pretty close to my local dealer and will probably borrow a 24.5 inch scale singlecut and do my own shoot out.

 

Yeah, pretty sure I have tonepro hardware. Will look into Faber. Thanks for the tip.

 

Also, I love Teles and might check out a Melancon at some point. I hear amazing things.

[yoslate]

Yoslate has a pretty good saying for this endless search for tonal nirvana. I'll leave it to him

 

Heh.... I'm sorely tempted to have t-shirts printed up.

[H]

 

Heh.... I'm sorely tempted to have t-shirts printed up.

I'll buy the first one, Rob

[JeffB]

My PRS is my most resonant guitar. Annoyingly so. Ive tried to kill the resonance with p/up swaps, string changes and foam in the trem spring cavity. It wont die eve a little.

Ive also sold a lot of PRS. I win, we constantly and with out exception had 25-35 PRS hanging on the wall not including the cheap SE range. We constantly moved through them during the 7yrs I was there. Not all of them caught my attention as a guitar I would want. Maybe one or two over the seven years I thought were special.

The thing with PRS is the way they hype aspects of their product as though its one of the most absolutely crucial parts of the tone equation (They use catch words and phrases like "tone equation") and Paul himself thought of these crucial elements all by himself and no one in all the world had ever thought so deeply about these things.

As far as nut material goes, the guitars of mine that get the most play time have steel roller nuts (LSR's). These guitars sound really good to me.

The build quality and playability of PRS are indisputably good. I never found a bunky in that regard. But the signature sound of a PRS never really yanked my chain. Its a nothing sound for me. I still have one and still play it but I dont rate it as a guitar that inspires me. It spent the last 6months sitting in a rack with no strings or pickups in it. Its that inspiring to play. Its for sale if any one is interested.

 

For me the bottom line is so what if its the most resonant guitar I have, I dont like it that much. I spend more time playing my less resonant Fenders and Heritage because they sound better.....to me.

 

I know my post doesnt read like it, but I do like PRS guitars. My favourites are the all mahogany CU22's and all mahogany body CE22's. With a stop tail and p/up swap they do have something I really like.

[smurph1]

I'm confused..(not the first time that has happened) but you all are talking about 3 to 4 percent being great for a guitar..But I have always been told that 30 to 40 percent humidity is optimum..What gives? Or is that just on acoustic insturments?

[yoslate]

I'm confused..(not the first time that has happened) but you all are talking about 3 to 4 percent being great for a guitar..But I have always been told that 30 to 40 percent humidity is optimum..What gives? Or is that just on acoustic insturments?

 

smurph, I think the discussion is about the inherent moisture content in the wood itself, rather than ambient room humidity...if I understood your question.

[SouthpawGuy]

There's a joke in here somewhere about nuts, moisture and resonance

 

but I won't go there

[High Flying Bird]

There's a joke in here somewhere about nuts, moisture and resonance

 

but I won't go there

You went there.

 

At first I thought the title of the thread was "Kilts" - wood - nuts, etc...

[smurph1]

smurph, I think the discussion is about the inherent moisture content in the wood itself, rather than ambient room humidity...if I understood your question.

Ahhh..Thanks Kemosabe!!

[SouthpawGuy]

Ha !

 

Now that you mention it ....

[Jmundell]

My PRS is my most resonant guitar. Annoyingly so. Ive tried to kill the resonance with p/up swaps, string changes and foam in the trem spring cavity. It wont die eve a little.

Ive also sold a lot of PRS. I win, we constantly and with out exception had 25-35 PRS hanging on the wall not including the cheap SE range. We constantly moved through them during the 7yrs I was there. Not all of them caught my attention as a guitar I would want. Maybe one or two over the seven years I thought were special.

The thing with PRS is the way they hype aspects of their product as though its one of the most absolutely crucial parts of the tone equation (They use catch words and phrases like "tone equation") and Paul himself thought of these crucial elements all by himself and no one in all the world had ever thought so deeply about these things.

As far as nut material goes, the guitars of mine that get the most play time have steel roller nuts (LSR's). These guitars sound really good to me.

The build quality and playability of PRS are indisputably good. I never found a bunky in that regard. But the signature sound of a PRS never really yanked my chain. Its a nothing sound for me. I still have one and still play it but I dont rate it as a guitar that inspires me. It spent the last 6months sitting in a rack with no strings or pickups in it. Its that inspiring to play. Its for sale if any one is interested.

 

For me the bottom line is so what if its the most resonant guitar I have, I dont like it that much. I spend more time playing my less resonant Fenders and Heritage because they sound better.....to me.

 

I know my post doesnt read like it, but I do like PRS guitars. My favourites are the all mahogany CU22's and all mahogany body CE22's. With a stop tail and p/up swap they do have something I really like.

 

These right here are some great points. I got a Tusq nut on the way and will see what that does. Mostly, I think the pickups I have coming will be the Les Paul sound I'm looking for.

 

I think going to the 2 hour pitch really had me buying into his stuff. Went to a dealer and played a McCarty58 today and honestly... Im just not into the pickups AND it didn't sound much better than my H150 unplugged. Maybe a little more full but not much. I think there's something special going on in the DGT. It's got some of the most mojo I've ever encountered in any guitar... ever. It's like someone threw the 4 vintage mainstays in a blender and out popped this LP/335/Strat/Tele mix thing. I love it. Didn't love the McCarty that much. I pulled a DGT off the wall just to double check and there it was, that glorious tone.

 

I'm with you on generally not vibing with their stuff but between getting this unsually mojo-filled model and the 2 hour "PRS Experience" night... yeah. I was having second thoughts about everything else. My head is much more clear about the different designs and what-not right now.

 

I also played the new Brent Mason signature guitar while at the dealer. It's actually pretty cool but as far as a "tele killer". Nope. My sugar pine G&L ASAT Alnico gives me a tone that really inspires me much more than the Brent Mason PRS. Though I could see myself grabbing one of those Brent Masons at some point. Really killer with tons of sounds on board.

[Jmundell]

Ok, so I've installed the Dimarzio 36th PAF set. These are hands down the best PAF on the market for me after having been unable to get the right sound from: 59's, Joe Bonamassa Duncans, Antiquities, Dr Vintage and Lollar Imperials. They sound like the Ants but bring so much life and presence to the guitar. The DP103 would fit bridge and neck for someone who just wants a great vintage sound but the DP223 bridge is a hot

Paf that works SO FREAKING WELL.

 

The H150 is back in the mix of my favorite guitars I own with the Dimarzio 36th set installed. The absolute perfect Les Paul tone IMHO.

 

Cheers all.

[SouthpawGuy]

What's the moisture content of the DiMarzios ?

 

 

j/k

 

[H]

What's the moisture content of the DiMarzios ?

It's indirectly proportional to how far nuts bounce off them when launched from a PRS

[SouthpawGuy]

.. but can only really be calculated correctly on the cusp of a full moon when facing due east.

 

With no socks on

[tsp17]

Remember that the nut is only in the action when you are NOT fretting a string. The bridge is in the action 100% of the time, so that would be the first place to look for improving sustain.

 

 

This statement alone made it worth opening this thread, which has lot's of other good stuff too. Nice insight TRich.