Vintage 47 vs Fender Excelsior

[bobjr]

I learned a lot from the speaker size discussion. Thanks to everyone who contributed. Didn't want to hijack that discussion, so I thought I'd try starting my own related one. I always told my ex that size didn't matter, well anyway, long story short(ahem), now I'm in a position to get a new amp. Very interesting to hear from the 15" advocates. Don't some jazzers prefer 10"s? And what about power? Don't some jazz players swear by these very powerful solid state amps, Evans etc.? But I'm thinking about low power(apologies to Jeremy Clarkson) So ok I'm getting to my question. Has any body tried any Vintage 47 amps for jazz? He makes great looking tube amps, either 5 or 12 watt and 8" or 10" or 12" speakers, based on Valco amp designs from the 40's. And,there's a Fender amp, the Excelsior, tube, 13 watts, 15" speaker(and you thought I'd never get back there)good looking and cheap. Have you tried it?

[slider313]

Try not to associate a form of music; jazz, rock, blues, punk, etc. with a type of amp. A good player will "get his/her sound" out of almost any good amp with a few twists of the knobs. The Fender Twin Reverb has been used by jazz, country, rock, blues and countless session players since it was "the new amp to have".

 

That said, the Vintage 47 amps look to have a much better "build quality" than the Excelsior. I'd spend a bit more money for the better built product. FWIW, I have read a few threads where owners of the Excelsior state the amp has issues with rattling noises.

[bolero]

I'm too dumb to know how to play jazz, but you couldn't go wrong with something like a SF vibrolux IMO

 

2x10's, small, light, easy to carry, great cleans & probably plenty loud enough

[barrymclark]

Hey bobjr.

 

I agree with Slider in that you shouldn't get hung up on speaker size. You have to go on the overall characteristics of the amp... and more importantly, most importantly, how it sounds when you play through it.

 

Your average jazz player likes a lot of clean head room in their amps so they may play louder gigs without the sound of tube saturation. Solid state amps tend to offer this to them so you get the love of solid state from the jazzers. Further, jazzers tend to play a ridiculous number of gigs (and tend to be older) in very urban areas so portability is big, big deal.

 

Things to note about both V47 amps and the Excelsior: not a ton of clean headroom. These are amps will give you an OLD school jazz sound. When I say old, I may like Oscar Moore, Dave Barbour and the like. Not Joe Pass or anyone 'new' like that. ...if you follow. V47 amps are made by hand by a man that absolutely has a thing for those Valco amps. If you want Valco, talk to him. I personally like the Ric Supreme 12. I own an Excelsior. Since I only need get over the acoustic sound of my guitar, the early breakup isn't an issue for me. I also have not experienced the rattle that Slider mentioned (but I acknowledge that many have said they've had the issue). That being said, neither of these amps will suit your common jazzer. For folks like me, oh yeah! ...but I still have a Roland Cube for a more modern sound and even have something in the works for modern yet vintage sound.

 

Henriksen, Evans, Rivera, Mambo (please check these out), Roland Cubes, Fender, Acoustic Image, Redstone, Quilter, Brunetti, AES, etc. all have a good name amongst jazzers. You will find them at varying cost points and ALL of them do the trick. You just gotta find your flavor.

[TalismanRich]

You can do Jazz with it, but don't expect to fill a large room with a lot of volume, Most are relatively low powered. They break up fairly soon. The Valco amps of the late 40s to mid 50s have a pronounced midrange, not a lot of top end, and when kept clean, they do the jazz thing pretty well.

 

At last year's PSP, we compared a Vintage 47 (Eljay's) to my 53 National. There were some differences, especially with the difference in the speakers, but the "familial resemblance" was definitely there.

 

Eljay's Vintage 47

 

 

My 63 National Supreme.

[barrymclark]

T-Rich nailed it there. Pronounced mid range. You will definitely need to mind your picking dynamics. This is true for the Excelsior as well.

[Kuz]

I'm too dumb to know how to play jazz, but you couldn't go wrong with something like a SF vibrolux IMO

 

2x10's, small, light, easy to carry, great cleans & probably plenty loud enough

What he said..... Black face or early Silver face Vibrolux Reverb is the bomb for big rich cleans and plent of headroom & volume.

[bobjr]

Thanks to all! Slider, you make two good points. I think you are right, spend a little more(well twice as much really) for the 47. Barry has a good Excelsior, but realistically, at that price, some probably aren't. Barry, thanks for the fine distinction on what you mean by old school. Love Oscar Moore's sound, not sure that's what I want though. Speaking of old school sound, I'm listening to Jimmy Smith "Live at Smalls", I think it's Eddie McFadden on guitar, maybe not, but anyway, whatever little amp he's using seems to be struggling to keep up with the mighty B-3, but I like it. I've seen pictures of the Ric 12, it sure looks nice. T-Rich, thanks for the hands on advice. Kuz, Sunburst Golden Eagle Florentine, Wow. Thanks, all. How about this, alnico or ceramic magnets?

[bobjr]

I should add that Boleros advice to get a Vibrolux is probably the voice of reason, still a warm sound but probably a lot more versatile. Thanks

[yoslate]

I've been interested in the Excelsior, but I think to get one of those, you have to know what you're getting. The build issues Mike mentioned are legit concerns. And the amp can be had fairly inexpensively, but.... I have a friend who's a marvelous, hugely experienced player, and who transcends genres. He has two of them, playing them as a pair. I've heard this setup, and in Scott's hands, it's terrific! Big, round, warm, grunting, but capable of delicacy. They seem to take pedals well. That having been said, Scott thought re-tubing, and installing new speakers (he went with a 15" Eminence) was a must.

[smurph1]

I tend to believe most tone is generated by the player himself..Jimmy Page used a Telecaster and a tiny Supro amp for those monster tones on Zeppelin's first album.. My favorite rig is my Strat into my 15w 59 Gibsonette with a 10 inch speaker..my 2 cents..

[barrymclark]

I should add that Boleros advice to get a Vibrolux is probably the voice of reason, still a warm sound but probably a lot more versatile. Thanks

If versatile is what you are after, then likely neither the V47 nor Excelsior will be your puppy.

[barrymclark]

I tend to believe most tone is generated by the player himself..Jimmy Page used a Telecaster and a tiny Supro amp for those monster tones on Zeppelin's first album.. My favorite rig is my Strat into my 15w 59 Gibsonette with a 10 inch speaker..my 2 cents..

I am with you. The guitarist is by far the most important part of the tone chain. Awesome on the Gibsonette. Big fan of the Gibson type of amp sound. The Excelsior does that sort of sound.

[Kuz]

I tend to believe most tone is generated by the player himself..Jimmy Page used a Telecaster and a tiny Supro amp for those monster tones on Zeppelin's first album.. My favorite rig is my Strat into my 15w 59 Gibsonette with a 10 inch speaker..my 2 cents..

 

I am with you. The guitarist is by far the most important part of the tone chain. Awesome on the Gibsonette. Big fan of the Gibson type of amp sound. The Excelsior does that sort of sound.

Well, yes and no is my opinion. With enough gain, heavier strings, and different pick, one can approximate the tone of a LP with a Tele (ala Jimmy Page). But I have not heard (without a pedal) anyone make a blackface Fender sound like a tweed and visa versa. My point is, and Mike & I have had this conversation before, that an average guitar with a great amp will sound good. But the best guitar through a crappy transitor amp will not sound good. Very similar anology to cameras and lens. Everyone wants to buy a $3K camera and use a $80 lens, then wondering why their pics are not sharp with lack of contrast. The lens should be priority number 1 then the camera..... I feel the same with the amp.

 

Oh, and I won't even get into cheap input cables and cheap picks..... You would not believe the difference!!!!

[barrymclark]

 

 

 

Well, yes and no is my opinion. With enough gain, heavier strings, and different pick, one can approximate the tone of a LP with a Tele (ala Jimmy Page). But I have not heard (without a pedal) anyone make a blackface Fender sound like a tweed and visa versa. My point is, and Mike & I have had this conversation before, that an average guitar with a great amp will sound good. But the best guitar through a crappy transitor amp will not sound good. Very similar anology to cameras and lens. Everyone wants to buy a $3K camera and use a $80 lens, then wondering why their pics are not sharp with lack of contrast. The lens should be priority number 1 then the camera..... I feel the same with the amp.

 

Oh, and I won't even get into cheap input cables and cheap picks..... You would not believe the difference!!!!

We can all agree to disagree but the player is the start. All else needs to be built on that.

[Kuz]

We can all agree to disagree but the player is the start. All else needs to be built on that.

Not disagreeing that the tone is in the fingers, I am saying after that (IMHO) the next most important thing in tone is the amp (or modeler/amp simulators). Give Larry Carlton a Gorilla amp and he doesn't sound like Larry Carlton. But give him an Epiphone Semi-hollow through his rig and he will sound VERY close to his Mr. 335 tone.

[barrymclark]

Not disagreeing that the tone is in the fingers, I am saying after that (IMHO) the next most important thing in tone is the amp (or modeler/amp simulators). Give Larry Carlton a Gorilla amp and he doesn't sound like Larry Carlton. But give him an Epiphone Semi-hollow through his rig and he will sound VERY close to his Mr. 335 tone.

AH! Now I follow. Sorry. I can be thick at times.

[bobjr]

Kuz. Very interesting. I currently playing through a Blues Jr., and I'm really pretty happy with it. I think, as has been suggested that, by twisting of couple knobs I get pretty much the sound I want. I've also got(had it for decades) a blackface Pro Reverb, that's not working. I guess with the prices they are bringing I really need to get around to getting it in for repair. But it is really more amp than I need for practicing in my apartment or playing with a standup bass and sax(no drums even). Kuz would you elaborate on your opinion on the differences between blackface and tweed, especially as related to use for very low volume jazz. Any opinions on some of these tweed replicas currently available?

[Kuz]

Sure, in it's simplest element, the blackface Fenders are the definition of "clean" and "Jazz cleans". Before the invention of light weight transistor amps (light, with clean headroom, amps made not for break-up or distortion), jazz guys played blackface fender Twins and Pro amps. Now more guys are playing modern solid state amps, or lighter blackface Fenders like the Fender Deluxe Reverb or Vibrolux Reverb. Most jazzers will tell you if weight wasn't an issue, they would play a blackface fender.

 

Fender Tweed amps are all about distortion and break-up. They have a lot of mids and are less chimey and defined, with more sag and less immediate attack. A lot of your '60s and '70s rock tones were recorded with Tweed amps, not Marshall's as people think. A high powered tweed twin sounds good clean, but not the tones that most would associate with archtop jazz tones.

 

Your Fender Pro is your jazz amp answer.... Lots of power (not power to play loud, but power for clean headroom). So you can DEFINATELY use a Pro Reverb at home or in a small venue for the perfect jazz tones. A less efficient speaker and weaker NOS tubes will allow you to turn the amp up a little more so the tubes warm up but without more volume. You already have your jazz amp if you don't mind the weight.

 

I don't pretend to be a jazz player, but when I want jazzy tones I go straight for my 35 watt 1967 Vibrolux Reverb and then to the 22 watt Deluxe Reverb (that has an efficient JBL K120 speaker so it has tons of clean headroom too). And Blackface Fenders will take almost any overdrive pedal well, so they are great for blues and rock too. Tweed amps if they have enough watts can take overdrive pedals too, but not as well because they are already breaking up and distorting naturally at the volume you would use the OD pedal.

 

Again, these are only my comments and opinions....

[bobjr]

Kuz, THANK YOU. That is really helpful. I really appreciate you taking the time to share all that with me. I will get that amp fixed.