Guest HRB853370 Posted October 26, 2013 Posted October 26, 2013 What is the definition of a High Gain amp? One that starts breaking up early, versus a Fender that stays relatively clean? Is there certain tube configuration that makes an amp high gain?
big bob Posted October 26, 2013 Posted October 26, 2013 A high gain amp has a different preamp section than a clean amp. Usually more preamp tubes. Soldano and Mesa are thought to be high gain. When it comes to amps you can never have too many. So I would recommend buying one of each.
Guest HRB853370 Posted October 26, 2013 Posted October 26, 2013 A high gain amp has a different preamp section than a clean amp. Usually more preamp tubes. Soldano and Mesa are thought to be high gain. When it comes to amps you can never have too many. So I would recommend buying one of each. What about Vox? I was told by my amp mechanic that my PV Delta Blues is high gain. He equated it to a Vox. I do have 4 preamp tubes in my Delta.
TalismanRich Posted October 26, 2013 Posted October 26, 2013 I think the Delta Blues only has 3 preamp tubes, and the 4 EL84 power tubes. The Delta Blues has a "hi gain channel". When you kick in the "distortion" channel, it adds another 2 gain stages to the circuit which produces the crunch. Amps like the Mesa Triple Rectifier and the 5150 have as many as 5 or 6 gain stages. Depending on how the circuit is designed, it can be clean or easily overdriven. On the Peavey, the normal channel uses V1, The crunch channel will add the two triode stages of V2. The "PRE" control determines how much signal you send to V2 which determines how much it distorts. If you stay on the clean channel, V2 isn't in the circuit. The V3 then drives to the reverb and power section. On my DSL401, you have 3 channels. The first channel is the clean. When you kick to ch2, you get the crunch. The "3rd" channel adds 20 dB more gain to the second channel. Old amps really didn't have gain stages to make distortion. They were there to resolve the issue of some instruments having lower output and needing more amplification to get to the same volume. The fact that you could put a hi output instrument into the higher gain side and get a cool distorted sound was one of those fortuitous accidents. It wasn't what the designers intended.
Guest HRB853370 Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 I think the Delta Blues only has 3 preamp tubes, and the 4 EL84 power tubes. The Delta Blues has a "hi gain channel". When you kick in the "distortion" channel, it adds another 2 gain stages to the circuit which produces the crunch. Amps like the Mesa Triple Rectifier and the 5150 have as many as 5 or 6 gain stages. Depending on how the circuit is designed, it can be clean or easily overdriven. On the Peavey, the normal channel uses V1, The crunch channel will add the two triode stages of V2. The "PRE" control determines how much signal you send to V2 which determines how much it distorts. If you stay on the clean channel, V2 isn't in the circuit. The V3 then drives to the reverb and power section. On my DSL401, you have 3 channels. The first channel is the clean. When you kick to ch2, you get the crunch. The "3rd" channel adds 20 dB more gain to the second channel. Old amps really didn't have gain stages to make distortion. They were there to resolve the issue of some instruments having lower output and needing more amplification to get to the same volume. The fact that you could put a hi output instrument into the higher gain side and get a cool distorted sound was one of those fortuitous accidents. It wasn't what the designers intended. Rich, my PV has 4 12ax7's and 3 EL84's
HANGAR18 Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 The world according to HANGAR18... Low Gain= 4 tubes (Like my VOX AC15c) High Gain=10 or more tubes (Like my 100W Carvin V3)
TalismanRich Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Better check again. Features Made in the USA Normal volume control on clean channel 3-band passive EQ (bass, middle, treble) One 15 inch Blue Marvel® speaker Master reverb Pre- and post-gain controls on lead channel Effects loop Classic tweed covering Chrome-plated chassis 2-channel preamp External speaker jack Tremolo with speed and intensity All-tube (three 12AX7 and four EL84 tubes) 30 watts into 16 or 8 ohms Boost switch Footswitch selectable channel switching, tremolo, reverb and boost.
buzzy Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 I like the question because the answer should be subjective and spur discussion. If you're looking for modern 'High Gain' then it would be preamp distortion using component values or cascading gain stages combined with a high powered output section that doesn't break up at volume and likely a solid state rectifier with some heavy filtering to keep it tight. If you don't consider the PI as a gain stage (it's not suppose to be), then the clean channel of the Peavey has the same number of gain stages as a Champ. Some might say the Champ would have more gain because it doesn't have the drag from the tone stack. As TalismanRich said, the dirty channel adds an extra two gain stages from V2 ('cascades' from my perspective). And the 'Metal' settings from the manual are for that distorted pre amp / clean power - modern 'High Gain'. You have one tone stack so if you're switching back and forth then use an EQ in your loop to shape the dirty channel. A long winded two cents
bolero Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 high gain for me equates to more modern sounding saturated distortion whether it's tubes or solid state...heck it might not even be the amp, you can have a high gain pedal it sorta started with cascading unused gain stages of preamp tubes, on older amps, to approximate distortion you would get by putting a pedal in front of an amp. I'm pretty sure pedals were used for distortion, before anyone started building distortion channels in amps?
HANGAR18 Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 high gain for me equates to more modern sounding saturated distortion whether it's tubes or solid state...heck it might not even be the amp, you can have a high gain pedal it sorta started with cascading unused gain stages of preamp tubes, on older amps, to approximate distortion you would get by putting a pedal in front of an amp. I'm pretty sure pedals were used for distortion, before anyone started building distortion channels in amps? My 4 tube amp isn't capable of any meaningful distortion and so I have a Rat pedal I use with it if I want distortion while playing with that amp. But I would never use the rat pedal with my 10 tube amp because it can provide all the distortion I could ever want. I think the whole distortion thing happened as a result of guitar players pushing their tube amps hard till they heard the breakup and then realized it sounded pretty cool.
Guest HRB853370 Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Better check again. Features Made in the USA Normal volume control on clean channel 3-band passive EQ (bass, middle, treble) One 15 inch Blue Marvel® speaker Master reverb Pre- and post-gain controls on lead channel Effects loop Classic tweed covering Chrome-plated chassis 2-channel preamp External speaker jack Tremolo with speed and intensity All-tube (three 12AX7 and four EL84 tubes) 30 watts into 16 or 8 ohms Boost switch Footswitch selectable channel switching, tremolo, reverb and boost. Oops I was mixing up the pre and power amp tubes my bad. The three little ones are preamp and I thought they were power amp. Good thing I am not an amp technician, everybody would be in real trouble!
JeffB Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Not all high gain amps have lots of tubes. The Blackstar HT 40 amp has a lot of gain in the 2nd channel but only has two preamp tubes and two power amp tubes. IIRC one tube is used for the clean channel and the other tube is for the gain channel. The PI is SS. The distortion is derived from diode clipping much the same way as the Marshall JCM900. The JCM 900 has 3 preamp tubes. One is a phase inverter and one is a reverb driver. V1 is the 1st gain stage. The rest is done with diodes. Tube content or quantity is no indicator of gain capability. Many of the Randall high gain amps were hybrid amps with a single preamp tube warming up the signal. A fully equipped low gain vintage flavoured amp with tube driven reverb, trem, tone stack, effects loop and PI will have more tubes than some high gain amps. The Egnater Tourmaster is a "relatively" high gain amp and takes the all tube route. Most of the amps I have owned have been high gain amps. I can get those same high gain sounds with stomps into a high head room clean amp. As long as the amp has a tight bottom end and little to no preamp or power amp break up at decent volumes I can mimic the sounds and feel with a stomp set to a few db above unity with the amp. Some amps have too much give in the preamp and power amp sections and any added gain that is fed into it turns to compressed mush. The thing for me that needs to break up just right is the speaker. If it doesnt break up correctly it sounds to me like the od/dist stomp doesnt sit right and sounds thin and artificial. Sort of like it sits on top of the sound of the amp rather than in it.
TalismanRich Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Good point, Jeff. There's more than one way to achieve distortion. Overdrive pedals are almost all diode clipping devices. Depending on how its designed, you can change how it sounds pretty easily. Tube distortion is the same thing, it's overdriving the signal to the point of clipping and approaching a square wave. One difference is that a tube will react at a different rate from a diode, which means that the top will retain some "roundness" on the edges as it approaches the flat top of the wave. This is a change in the harmonic content. A square wave is simply a collection of increasing frequency sine waves. Diode clipping usually sounds harsher than tube clipping becauise of the added high frequency. Then you try to filter out those high frequencies to make it sound more tube like. The other side of the equation is the sustain. As your guitar's signal drops, the signal slowly returns to a normal wave. Depending on how many dB you overdrive the signal, it takes a while to return to a normal level. During that time, the volume remains "constant" since the peak wave height stays the same but the amount of distortion slowly subsides. All of that changes the way you perceive the sound.
holyroller Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 High gain have no soul just a bunch over the top saturated distortion not much warm gain. I gave up on them , went back to non master volume amp a couple of good dirt pedals. Now thats tone. Plus gigging out high gain amps get lost in the mix.
greatmutah Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 The world according to HANGAR18... Low Gain= 4 tubes (Like my VOX AC15c) High Gain=10 or more tubes (Like my 100W Carvin V3) My Fryette Deliverance 60 has 6 tubes. Two KT88 power tubes and 4 preamp tubes. I can defeat one of the gain stages via a toggle but that amp gets pretty heinous hi gain on its own. Single channel at that. And in response to holy roller I respectfully disagree. If you set your high gain amp for a scooped tone yeah you'll get lost. If you use the mids that are given to you and actually use them you can cut through quite alright. Never had a problem cutting with my Deliverance or any of my Mesa Mark series amps.
Trouble Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 The world according to HANGAR18... Low Gain= 4 tubes (Like my VOX AC15c) High Gain=10 or more tubes (Like my 100W Carvin V3) How do you like the V3?
Trouble Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Not all high gain amps have lots of tubes. The Blackstar HT 40 amp has a lot of gain in the 2nd channel but only has two preamp tubes and two power amp tubes. IIRC one tube is used for the clean channel and the other tube is for the gain channel. The PI is SS. The distortion is derived from diode clipping much the same way as the Marshall JCM900. The JCM 900 has 3 preamp tubes. One is a phase inverter and one is a reverb driver. V1 is the 1st gain stage. The rest is done with diodes. Tube content or quantity is no indicator of gain capability. Many of the Randall high gain amps were hybrid amps with a single preamp tube warming up the signal. A fully equipped low gain vintage flavoured amp with tube driven reverb, trem, tone stack, effects loop and PI will have more tubes than some high gain amps. The Egnater Tourmaster is a "relatively" high gain amp and takes the all tube route. Most of the amps I have owned have been high gain amps. I can get those same high gain sounds with stomps into a high head room clean amp. As long as the amp has a tight bottom end and little to no preamp or power amp break up at decent volumes I can mimic the sounds and feel with a stomp set to a few db above unity with the amp. Some amps have too much give in the preamp and power amp sections and any added gain that is fed into it turns to compressed mush. The thing for me that needs to break up just right is the speaker. If it doesnt break up correctly it sounds to me like the od/dist stomp doesnt sit right and sounds thin and artificial. Sort of like it sits on top of the sound of the amp rather than in it. A buddy of mine has one of those Egnator Tourmasters, absolute beast of an amp.
Trouble Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 I really like it! I'm leaning to the V3M, waiting on the funds to clear paypal, should be able to order by Wednesday.
HANGAR18 Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 I'm leaning to the V3M, waiting on the funds to clear paypal, should be able to order by Wednesday. I keep my 100W V3 on the 50W setting and my ears will start ringing if I set the volume dial at 4 or above. So you may as well get the V3m (50 watt) if you would like to save some space. HOWEVER.... I would recommend that you listen very closely to as many tone demos on youtube (between the V3, the V3m or the Legacy) and make the best choice for your particular style of playing. The V3 was the right choice for me but you may wind up preferring the Legacy (for example). Mars_Hall did a great write up on the Legacy which you can do a search for in the Amplification section. I did all of the above before I settled upon the Carvin V3.
Trouble Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 I keep my 100W V3 on the 50W setting and my ears will start ringing if I set the volume dial at 4 or above. So you may as well get the V3m (50 watt) if you would like to save some space. HOWEVER.... I would recommend that you listen very closely to as many tone demos on youtube (between the V3, the V3m or the Legacy) and make the best choice for your particular style of playing. The V3 was the right choice for me but you may wind up preferring the Legacy (for example). Mars_Hall did a great write up on the Legacy which you can do a search for in the Amplification section. I did all of the above before I settled upon the Carvin V3. Thanks. I've been researching for about 3 months now, and it's difficult to make comparisons since there are nearly no carvin amps down here, but I'm fairly confident in the decision now. I've played through several of my friends multi channel amps over the last couple months, 5150's, Mesa's, Egnators, and I decided that I would rather have one of the micro sized heads, of those the V3M has the most appealing features to me, I think for the places I usually play it will stay on the 22 watt setting most of the time.
smurph1 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 My 4 tube amp isn't capable of any meaningful distortion and so I have a Rat pedal I use with it if I want distortion while playing with that amp. But I would never use the rat pedal with my 10 tube amp because it can provide all the distortion I could ever want. I think the whole distortion thing happened as a result of guitar players pushing their tube amps hard till they heard the breakup and then realized it sounded pretty cool. My Princeton is pretty much the same deal, Beautiful Fender Clean, but add an overdrive pedal and increase the volume to around 5 or 6 and WATCH OUT!! God I LOVE THAT AMP!!
Millennium Maestro Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 I'm leaning to the V3M, waiting on the funds to clear paypal, should be able to order by Wednesday.I love my V3m, its an outstanding amp... I take that tiny lunchbox to jams and it keeps up with the big boys.
Millennium Maestro Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 I run my micro in 7watt mode, she has plenty of juice powering a 4x12
Trouble Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 I love my V3m, its an outstanding amp... I take that tiny lunchbox to jams and it keeps up with the big boys. I run my micro in 7watt mode, she has plenty of juice powering a 4x12 It will be here Friday. Playing a 2 night gig at a Casino this weekend but I doubt if I try to use it, need to tinker with it some first.
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