Point to Point vs PCB

[Vanschoyck]

I found this article written by Randall Smith about why he wires his amps the way he does, and he addresses specifically the point to point vs pcb issue.

 

http://www.mesaboogie.com/US/Smith/point-to-point.html

 

What I'm hoping is that some of you who know lots about amps (you know who you are) would comment on this article, if you wouldn't mind giving it a quick read.

 

[bolero]

I take everything Randall Smith says with a large grain of salt.

 

 

he is more about marketing and "black art" than factual information.

 

in fact, he's right:. people don't want "factual information". They want black art, mystery, hype, hyperbole, snake oil, mystique, marketing, bullshit, and pedigree

[JeffB]

Well, at the end of the chain is a mic that runs into a desk.

 

 

 

Randall knows stuff about sound and amplifiers for sure.

 

Both the Mr Smiths of guitopia have "some" of the most entertaining and hyperbolic advertising Ive ever read or heard. But they arent alone.

 

As far as p2p vs HW goes from a repair perspective, I have an opinion.

[buzzy]

Hmmm, stirring the pot, eh?

From an interview with Ken Fischer taken from Dave Hunter's The Guitar Amp Handbook:

"There are good-sounding PCB amps out there: in simple amps it doesn't seem to make that dramatic of a difference . . . It's not like I'm prejudiced against printed circuits in that way."

There is a big difference between the two approaches (Fischer & Smith). One guy had an obvious love for taking a single channel circuit and fine tuning each individual amp - one at a time. The other guy needs to mass manufacture a more complex circuit. If Smith engineers the coupling of traces, then he is addressing one of Fischer's biggest concerns with the using PCB.

I would love to have heard the discussion between Reeves and Joyce when Hiwatt went to printed circuit.

[Guest HRB853370]

What would KBP810 do (or say)

[212Mavguy]

Grossly oversimplifying...Point to point is good for prototyping or modding a circuit, while PCB lends itself to more inexpensive production costs. If PCB's are well engineered they can sound quite good. I'd rather own an amp that is easy to work on. I do like the way that Howard Dumble used several small PCB's with eyelets in his later amp builds. I detest seeing tube sockets, tone pots and cable jacks mounted to a single PCB. If I see that in an amp I run away. Fast. Modern Orange amps are built that way, there was one that I opened up in a store due to it's failing on the floor. When I saw the type of PCB used and the tiny resistors, I almost got sick to my stomach. The old Oranges were built with turret PTP. This new over 2 grand priced amp looked very, very, Chinese inside. Same thing with Marshalls. new ones…UGH. Better to get a Ceriatone clone than a new production M-amp, the quality in build is much better in the Malaysian product. Harry Joyce left Hiwatt because of pressure to change his build techniques to a style allowing more rapid production…

 

I'd MUCH rather own a PTP, turret, or eyelet board amp. I'd MUCH rather see jacks, tone pots, and tube sockets chassis mounted. Only exception on the pots is if they are the small trimmer pots that are adjusted with a screwdriver on a board such as a bias pot, or trimmer pots such as found in a Dumble clone. Again, with that said, with my prejudices, if someone handed me a Fuchs amp, I'd gladly own and play through it. Andy builds PCB well. So does Bruce Zinky.

 

Boutique amps for boutique guitars!

Boutique guitars for boutique amps!

[MartyGrass]

Some of you may remember years ago that there were TV ads about how to get training in a trade that would lead to a good job. Two of these training programs were TV repair and VCR repair.

 

These two devices have mostly became disposable due to technology advances. But I wonder, has anyone seen marketing for a better home theater system because it has point to point hand soldering? I haven't. If it's so good, then why doesn't it spill over to the AV market where there is stiff competition among the high end products?

 

It makes sense to have amps where the boards can be easily replaced. In fact I can imagine having an amp where the boards can very easily be slid in and out for different sounds and options.

 

In a few days I will have another PTP amp, one I know well individually. It's worth it to me not because it's PTP but because of the final sound and features.

 

I'm profoundly skeptical that a human hand doing the solder advances the tone. And I'd rather have a 2014 robot-built GM than a 1972 hand made one. This is progress, and progress isn't all good. I get it. But it is better for at least some.

 

The one loop hole in this logic is the possibility of magic. Can it be that something intangible is transferred from the hands of the craftsman into the amp? I'd like to believe that's true. It happened every night with my mother's cooking.

[garyyamane]

Having just gotten my first PTP amp I can say that there is no comparison to all of the PCB amps that I have had over the years. I finally have the tone that I have been searching for and no PCB amp has given me.

[gpuma]

This is a field where there is always a conflict between scientific knowledge and artistic knowledge. Whenever the artistic side does not agree with the scientific side for whatever reason, it resorts to explanations that anyone would find utterly ridicolous in a different context.

 

I am a scientist as my background and for this reason I am highly skeptical of most of the artistics explanations. Maybe this is why I sound so bad. Yet I cannot be convinced that the only human factor that makes a tangible difference is with the player and not in the equipment.

[MartyGrass]

There is more mystery than understanding in this world.

[gpuma]

For some reason it does not allow me to edit my previous post.

The last sentence should read " with the equipment and not with the player"

[big bob]

A well designed well made amp is a good amp. A poorly designed poorly made amp is a bad amp.

 

Soldano,and VHT's are both great examples of pcb amps made the right way.

The vox ad series and Marshall mg series are both examples of pcb amps made the wrong way.

 

Unfortunately for us regular guys, all well designed well made amps share several things in common. One unfortunate thing is price, a well made amp takes time and skill to make, and usually costs more money.

[JeffB]

This subject has a lot to do with emotional and personal financial investment. Thats a big part of the "magic".

[GuitArtMan]

I love Steven Fryette's take on this:

 

 

[H]

In a comparison of well-made examples of either type, I'd say the only discernable advantage is in modification and repairs - and that belongs to the hand-wired amp.

 

If it sounds the way you want, get it.

[gpuma]

In a comparison of well-made examples of either type, I'd say the only discernable advantage is in modification and repairs - and that belongs to the hand-wired amp.

If it sounds the way you want, get it.

But the comparison is not fair if, as Randall Smith says, it is much more difficult to make consistently good ptp amp.

In statistics we would say that the sample is biased.

[slider313]

But the comparison is not fair if, as Randall Smith says, it is much more difficult to make consistently good ptp amp.

In statistics we would say that the sample is biased.

If it's much more difficult to make a consistently good point to point amp, then why are there thousands of 40 to 50+ year old Fender amps still in service sounding better than almost anything made today?

[Hfan]

In a comparison of well-made examples of either type, I'd say the only discernable advantage is in modification and repairs - and that belongs to the hand-wired amp.

 

If it sounds the way you want, get it.

That's what comes to mind for me as an occasional tinkerer as well. I have modded my Blues Jr on multiple occasions and have had to repair solder traces on the main PCB. Another aspect of some modern amps are ribbon cables that can fail with two much flexing etc. And with a ribbon cable it is impossible to re position the individual leads unless you slit them (very carefully along the sides (a Bill M trick). May be necessary if you get an oscillation problem. I have attempted to resolder the tips of a broken ribbon cable..a major PIA. Wound up installing straight wire.

 

Really I don't mind the actual PCB boards if they are repairable and have standard components (no IC chips).

 

If I have my druthers though PTP all the way.

[H]

But the comparison is not fair if, as Randall Smith says, it is much more difficult to make consistently good ptp amp.

In statistics we would say that the sample is biased.

There's an obvious word missing from the Randall Smith quote to make it make perfect sense: cheaply.

 

Fair now?

[TalismanRich]

I don't think its just a matter of a PCB vs "hardwiring". With most PCB system, you also tend to get thinner copper pathways, higher component density, probably less rugged components and multiple connectors to aid in the assembly.

 

A well made, robust PCB can be made with integral shielding, plenty of copper trace to handle the current, and use the same components as a hand wired amp. I suspect if the circuit design is EXACTLY the same, and the components are the same, there's not going to be much difference.

[big bob]

I don't think its just a matter of a PCB vs "hardwiring". With most PCB system, you also tend to get thinner copper pathways, higher component density, probably less rugged components and multiple connectors to aid in the assembly.

 

A well made, robust PCB can be made with integral shielding, plenty of copper trace to handle the current, and use the same components as a hand wired amp. I suspect if the circuit design is EXACTLY the same, and the components are the same, there's not going to be much difference.

I don't think its just a matter of a PCB vs "hardwiring". With most PCB system, you also tend to get thinner copper pathways, higher component density, probably less rugged components and multiple connectors to aid in the assembly.

 

Here is where I take you valid point and muddy it up.

A good pcb amp like a VHT is still hand assembled. The people who assemble them are professionals who take pride in what they do. The same is said of quality point to point amps like Carrs. They are hand assembled by people who are the best in their fields, and who care about making a quality product.

 

A high quality amp is also tested for quality before it leaves the shop.

 

A cheep machine made/ low paid non knowledgable assembly line amp is build as economically as possible and probable never tested before it leaves the factory. If it's faulty they will throw it away and give you a new one!

 

People who care about amps make good amps.. Ie Steve Carr, Mike Soldano.

Chinese machines make good profits..

 

Not the same thing is it.

[Hfan]

I love Steven Fryette's take on this:

 

 

Hilarius

[slider313]

Hilarius

That is funny.

 

Spend your money on whatever product makes you happy.

[davesultra]

PCB vs. Hardwire, I could give a crap less! As long as it works when I turn it on, and I like the sound, I'm good. YMMV

[Beagle216]

Prefer P2P, there is definitely a difference... That said, I have heard amazing tones out of both... Easier to fix the turret board amps and I like that. That's why I bought my P2P hand wired, but I really enjoy amps like the delta blues and prri...