Point to Point vs PCB

[gpuma]

If it's much more difficult to make a consistently good point to point amp, then why are there thousands of 40 to 50+ year old Fender amps still in service sounding better than almost anything made today?

 

 

There's an obvious word missing from the Randall Smith quote to make it make perfect sense: cheaply.

 

Fair now?

 

 

Let first make clear that I am necessarily supporting RS argument. What I am trying to say is that we oversimplify a lot when it comes to musical equipment and making a fair comparison is not a trivial task at all.

 

Slider, your post is a bright point in case. Imagine that fender made 1000 amps in the 50s, 50% of which by pure chance sounded awesome and the rest were total dogs. Do you think that 50 years later the percentage of the survivors between the good and the bad would be the same? Of course not! The ones that sounded well had a much better chance of being cared for, right?

 

And H, building something in a less expensive way is an asset. Who on earth would ever drive a car if they only were $1 million dollar stage one prototype? Volume is part of the equation as well, of course. But RS point was about consistency. Cost is an essential side benefit for PCB in the context of this discussion as much as serviceability is a great side benefit for P2P. Still either one does not answer the question, in my opinion.

 

Actually the "cost" feature would only make the point stronger if we factor in not only labor and material but the cost of scrap (implying that PCB would result in a much more consistent product -> less scrap).

[tsp17]

yes, of course there is a difference, but that difference doesn't equate to better.

 

Very true that my favorites, e.g, Heritage Liberty, Carr Rambler, Comins Jazz, '64 DR, '54 Tweed Deluxe, the ones that i'll remember the moment forever, have mostly come from P2P amps, newer and vintage. But that could also be that the amp was better engineered and constructed to produce a specific quality of tone, with more attention to detail, tighter tolerances and quality of cabinetry, joints, and other materials, not the P2P aspect. An Alessandro amp is better made all around than a factory assembly line amp. If the Alessandro had a PCB, it would probably still sound better than the factory assembly line amp made with inferior materials, cabinetry and without a trained, experienced, caring human making sure everything was just right.

 

In the end, there is no doubt that there is something special about a P2P amp. Just knowing that someone did that intricate and detailed work with pride (one would hope) caring about the quality brings something special to it. It is like you are partners in a joint tone endeavor with the designer/builder, rather than just another sale out of a factory assembly line and marketing process. Whether P2P alone makes it sound better, in a way i don't care.

 

beauty is in the eye/ear/mind/heart of the beholder.

[gpuma]

 

 

Let first make clear that I am necessarily supporting RS argument. What I am trying to say is that we oversimplify a lot when it comes to musical equipment and making a fair comparison is not a trivial task at all.

 

 

please read: Let first make clear that I am NOT necessarily supporting RS argument

[58super]

With the exception of some very early models Fender amps were not true point to point wired amps. They were built on eyelet boards to make manufacturing and wiring consistant and simplify repairs. True point to point wired amps tend to look like rats' nests and are a pain to work on compared to a Fender. Have a look at a tweed era Gibson amp or an American 5 table radio to see what I mean.

 

As far as circuit boards go Dynaco introduced one of the most popular tube hifi amps ever made, the St70, in1959 with a circuit board preamp with the tube sockets mounted on the board.

 

Repairs aside a well designed and engineered tube amp will work well whether pcb or ptp. Whether or not is sounds good is down to personal taste.

[rockabilly69]

The only amp of mine that I love that has failed has been my Boogie. I love the tone of that amp but RS, fryette, fuchs, THD or whoever, can

spout what they want but they KNOW that PCB is a cost cutting measure they are trying to justify. Yes you can make a good PCB amp, but

I'd rather have a great PTP amp!

[Kuz]

Of the 20 or so amps I have owned... the ones I couldn't bond with we're PCB amps. And these PCB amps weren't cheap (ie Bogner Shiva). This was not an intentional bias, but one based on tone alone. Yes, I have sold a number of PtP amps, but I didn't sell them because I didn't like the tone.

 

Bottom line for me, and only my opinion, is the PCB miss the 3D complexity of a PtP wired amp.

[schundog]

Rosewood... DEFINITELY Rosewood..... Except when I want Maple...... Then it's DEFINITELY Maple......Sometimes Ebony......Oh, wait, sorry, wrong long-standing arguement!

[Guest HRB853370]

Of the 20 or so amps I have owned... the ones I couldn't bond with we're PCB amps. And these PCB amps weren't cheap (ie Bogner Shiva). This was not an intentional bias, but one based on tone alone. Yes, I have sold a number of PtP amps, but I didn't sell them because I didn't like the tone.

 

Bottom line for me, and only my opinion, is the PCB miss the 3D complexity of a PtP wired amp.

Whoa, HRW's are stereophonic and PTP amps are 3-D?

 

I think I will stop reading this thread now and go play through my Peavey Trans-tube amp which sounds just lovely to "my" ears.

[slider313]

Whoa, HRW's are stereophonic and PTP amps are 3-D?

 

I think I will stop reading this thread now and go play through my Peavey Trans-tube amp which sounds just lovely to "my" ears.

If the Peavey Trans Tube sounds good to you, then that's all that matters. We all hear things (or don't hear things) differently.

 

Some folks think the bands Kiss has great guitar tone. Others like The Allman Bros. guitar tone. Different strokes for different folks.

[yoslate]

We all hear things (or don't hear things) differently.

 

Some folks think the bands Kiss has great guitar tone. Others like The Allman Bros. guitar tone. Different strokes for different folks.

 

After five years (maybe 120 gigs) of location recording, working with players, sound guys, club denizens, I'm here to tell you, truer words were never spoken!

[Beagle216]

yes, of course there is a difference, but that difference doesn't equate to better.

 

Very true that my favorites, e.g, Heritage Liberty, Carr Rambler, Comins Jazz, '64 DR, '54 Tweed Deluxe, the ones that i'll remember the moment forever, have mostly come from P2P amps, newer and vintage. But that could also be that the amp was better engineered and constructed to produce a specific quality of tone, with more attention to detail, tighter tolerances and quality of cabinetry, joints, and other materials, not the P2P aspect. An Alessandro amp is better made all around than a factory assembly line amp. If the Alessandro had a PCB, it would probably still sound better than the factory assembly line amp made with inferior materials, cabinetry and without a trained, experienced, caring human making sure everything was just right.

 

In the end, there is no doubt that there is something special about a P2P amp. Just knowing that someone did that intricate and detailed work with pride (one would hope) caring about the quality brings something special to it. It is like you are partners in a joint tone endeavor with the designer/builder, rather than just another sale out of a factory assembly line and marketing process. Whether P2P alone makes it sound better, in a way i don't care.

 

beauty is in the eye/ear/mind/heart of the beholder.

 

This echoes my exact beliefs about my Gries P2P amp. He is painstakingly consistent, not a single thing out of place! Would it sound the same if it was PCB, maybe, but I don't care. I wanted something meticulously hand crafted by one guy on a quest for the perfect blackface clone. I got it in spades. I didn't buy P2P cause I thought that alone was the difference maker, it's when you add up all the attention to detail and hand work that goes into it, you can hear that something special, even if it's just in my head. =)

[tsp17]

I love Steven Fryette's take on this:

 

 

Excellent!

[Kuz]

Whoa, HRW's are stereophonic and PTP amps are 3-D?

 

I think I will stop reading this thread now and go play through my Peavey Trans-tube amp which sounds just lovely to "my" ears.

 

I think that is a great thing for you to do Will. Some people hear differences, and some can not. Just remember, because you can't hear a difference, that doesn't mean others don't. And I am really glad you are happy with your amp.

[tbonesullivan]

Wow, I can smell the corks from here.

 

Unless someone has played through the exact same circuit design with the same exact components and same everything else except that one was PTP, one was Turret/eyelet board, and one was PCB, all arguments in this thread have no logical basis.

 

I remember seeing a pretty well-examined study comparing guitar tone capacitors and their frequency response curves, and found that any supposed benefit of orange drops was simply non existent.

 

oh wait, here it is: http://www.aqdi.com/tonecap.htm

 

So can anyone give any logical explanation to why a PTP or Turret board amp would sound better due simply to its construction rather than the circuit design?

[Gitfiddler]

Point-to-point vs. Turret board vs Eyelet board...blah, blah blah...

 

How does BB King get all of that stinging tone from his solid state amp?! From his FINGERS!!!

[Hfan]

Well the ease to repair and mod is a plus in my mind. Tone is subjective. As is the mojo factor, I find the old circuits to be cool.

[buzzy]

Earlier, I used a quote from Ken Fischer. I picked it for a reason; if a guy as obsessed with tone (and as frank) as Fischer can voice that opinion, then I'm not going to argue. If you think you've got better ears than Fischer had, then you should seriously consider lowering your dosage.

It's rarely apples to apples. Last week I played a simple circuit hand wired by guys who care amp (Savage) and the other guy used a Bugera. To me it was no contest; 15 watts of pure, raw, cut-thru-the-mix TONE that cost 5x the competition. I got complaints that my sound was too clean when it was my turn to dial down and play rhythm. It's true. His Master was on 10 and mine was <4; he had no headroom and my amp is so responsive that by using the volume knob and some touch, I had GLORIOUS clean.

This week I used the modded Marshall. A couple of switches for this, a couple more for that and an extra knob that's only useful on 2 of 30 songs - PCB and a lot of extra components between my guitar & the speaker. My rhythm was more appropriate to support his leads, but I didn't cut thru the same and I missed those cleans.

Next week I'm bringing a Boss GT-3, why? We play to entertain people with music. Music is a collaboration. I'm going to use the tools that serve the song, make music. I'm not going to pull the cork to hold it under their nose.

Well, in truth, I'll probably use the Boss thru a ToneBone loop into a Metropolitan - but, it's still PCB, so there!

[slider313]

Wow, I can smell the corks from here.

 

Unless someone has played through the exact same circuit design with the same exact components and same everything else except that one was PTP, one was Turret/eyelet board, and one was PCB, all arguments in this thread have no logical basis.

 

 

So can anyone give any logical explanation to why a PTP or Turret board amp would sound better due simply to its construction rather than the circuit design?

 

Wow! Good nose. I just pulled this cork out of my as....

 

I've only played a few side by side. The "reissues by Fender; Princeton Reverb, Deluxe Reverb, "Custom" Vibrolux Reverb (which doesn't really count) Super Reverb and Twin Reverb. We swapped tubes from the originals; both preamp and power tubes, re-biased and crossed over speakers to each other. In all cases the pcb amps sounded dull or "muted", almost like having a blanket over them, when compared to the originals.

[Kuz]

One thing that has to effect tone is materials. Many of the vintage materials aren't made any more. Transformers are completely different.

 

You can argue which sounds better, and that is subjective, but how can two amps (say a Vintage Blackface Deluxe Rev compared to a DR reissue) that have different caps, transformers, and components made of different materials NOT sound the same?

 

Like Slider said, buy what you like, make up your own mind, but what's up with the "cork sniffing" name calling? If you don't agree, then aren't others allowed an opinion without being labeled?

[tbonesullivan]

If you're comparing a reissue to an original, that doesn't really prove anything. The caps and resistors in the original are decades old, have been used extensively (most likely) and may possibly be out of spec.

 

The only way to really prove anything scientifically is to remove as many variables as possible, which would mean you would have to compare two newly made amps, or a Blackface that had all of the components replaced. It's not likely to happen, so a better way would be to take a simple design, like a bassman or a marshal bluesbreaker, and make two versions, one done PTP, and one done with a PCB. everything else would need to be identical.

[slider313]

If you're comparing a reissue to an original, that doesn't really prove anything. The caps and resistors in the original are decades old, have been used extensively (most likely) and may possibly be out of spec.

 

The only way to really prove anything scientifically is to remove as many variables as possible, which would mean you would have to compare two newly made amps, or a Blackface that had all of the components replaced. It's not likely to happen, so a better way would be to take a simple design, like a bassman or a marshal bluesbreaker, and make two versions, one done PTP, and one done with a PCB. everything else would need to be identical.

My original '65 blackface Deluxe Reverb has had all the coupling caps and resistors replaced. When I bought it it was "shotgunned" and the replacement parts were average "Radio Shack" stuff. I now have Sozo Blue Molded caps in it and all new carbon comp resistors. There's nothing on the board is out of spec or decades old.

[schundog]

 

Wow! Good nose. I just pulled this cork out of my as....

 

I've only played a few side by side. The "reissues by Fender; Princeton Reverb, Deluxe Reverb, "Custom" Vibrolux Reverb (which doesn't really count) Super Reverb and Twin Reverb. We swapped tubes from the originals; both preamp and power tubes, re-biased and crossed over speakers to each other. In all cases the pcb amps sounded dull or "muted", almost like having a blanket over them, when compared to the originals.

 

Mike, let me start by saying I am a friend of John's, and I know his very high standards for both guitars and amps. His taste and ear are impeccable. That he holds you in such high regard makes me listen VERY closely to any posts you make! Here is where I am at: I have 1 PTP amp, a 5E3 Clone built by the HOC's own KBP810. It is excellent. I also have several PCB Tube amps: A Fender BillM Modded Blues Junior, a Fender DRRI, a Peavey Classic 30, and an Ibanez TSA15H 15 watt head. In addition, I am a user of modellers, both floorboards and combos (Mustang I and III.)

 

I am a basement guitar hero; I'll never be in a gigging band, and have found the easiest way to get the best tone when I play in a church setting is running a Boss GT or Line 6 Floor unit through a Direct Box to the board. Still, I am intrigued by the "magical" tone the vintage Fenders could give me.

 

My hesitation has always been the reliability of the 4-5 decade old originals VS the warrantied re-issues. There are SO many variables in how they have been taken care of/maintained, I don't want to pay NEW prices for an amp that is simply old, and needs $500 or more worth of work. So, would your suggestion for a guy like me be to get a PRRI, a Silverface/Blackface PR, or have a guy like KBP810 build me a new one PTP? Again, I am not a PTP purist, but I am not blind to the benefits of them, either. Thanks in advance for your advice!

[Guest HRB853370]

I think that is a great thing for you to do Will. Some people hear differences, and some can not. Just remember, because you can't hear a difference, that doesn't mean others don't. And I am really glad you are happy with your amp.

I have choices of amps John, I like my ptp Gibson GA40rvt, the KBP tweed deluxe and the PV's dont' compare at all to those. But I can get by with the PV, it doesn't sound bad at all to me. I will acknowledge my ears do not detect as good as yours and others do here.

[slider313]

 

 

My hesitation has always been the reliability of the 4-5 decade old originals VS the warrantied re-issues. There are SO many variables in how they have been taken care of/maintained, I don't want to pay NEW prices for an amp that is simply old, and needs $500 or more worth of work. So, would your suggestion for a guy like me be to get a PRRI, a Silverface/Blackface PR, or have a guy like KBP810 build me a new one PTP? Again, I am not a PTP purist, but I am not blind to the benefits of them, either. Thanks in advance for your advice!

 

 

From what you've just written, I would have a ptp/tag board "clone" built with Magnetic Components Inc. "Classic Tone" transformers. It will sound better than any PRRI.

[schundog]

Thanks, Mike. While my first priority should be to learn to play better, I'll certainly take this under consideration!