Point to Point vs PCB

[gpuma]

 

Unless someone has played through the exact same circuit design with the same exact components and same everything else except that one was PTP, one was Turret/eyelet board, and one was PCB, all arguments in this thread have no logical basis.

 

I remember seeing a pretty well-examined study comparing guitar tone capacitors and their frequency response curves, and found that any supposed benefit of orange drops was simply non existent.

 

oh wait, here it is: http://www.aqdi.com/tonecap.htm

 

So can anyone give any logical explanation to why a PTP or Turret board amp would sound better due simply to its construction rather than the circuit design?

Exactly my idea.

[JeffB]

Thanks, Mike. While my first priority should be to learn to play better, I'll certainly take this under consideration!

The old stop shopping and start playing concept of guitar playing. Seems like a relatively untested idea. Let us know how it works out.

[111518]

Like so many arguments about "tone," I think this one interweaves so many factors (not of "tone," but of out experiences and attitudes towards it), that it almost inevitably becomes personal.

 

This reinforces to me a perception that has grown over the nearly 40 years I've been around guitars and amps: perceptions of "tone" have much more to do with what is between our ears --our preconceptions, the way we define our identity with the stuff we own-- than with the sound waves that enter our ears.

 

If we were more focused on why a certain technology held appeal for us, as opposed to arguing about which sounds better, we might have a more constructive exchange.

 

This reminds me of the endless debates between the Harley guys and the riceburner guys that I heard when I did construction work; more than once these came to blows. They always talked past each other, because they insisted that the other guy impose their own preconceptions and values on the debate.

 

I think each technology has advantages and disadvantages. My time as an electrician, and growing up the son of a scientist, makes me very skeptical that electrons care whether they flow through a wire or an appropriately- sized trace, BUT, that's the preconception I bring to the issue, and it doesn't mean point to point doesn't have real advantages, not the least of which is that they are open to tinkering. I own both designs, purchased with my eyes and ears open, for different purposes. Fortunately, I've found an amp repair guy who has an attitude very similar to my own.

 

All my two cents.

[schundog]

"Seek First to understand; THEN to be understood...." Steven Covey

[kbp810]

Ahh yes, the good ol' PTP vs PCB debate!

 

To think that a signal traveling over wire sounds better than a signal traveling over copper traces alone is a rather silly notion to me; sure there can be associated negative drawbacks to PCB constructed amps, but I have my doubts that its the copper traces fault.

 

So why do I think some PCB amps fall short then?

 

1. Think about why that company went with PCB construction... in most cases, it was a cost savings initiative; and if they are trying to reduce production costs, the components selected were most likely done out of cost and/or compatibility with their assembly line machining rather than their transparent or sonic qualities.

 

2. Also, a short signal path is a happy signal path (minimizing signal loss)... ever try to follow a signal path in your typical PCB amp? It can be maddening to say the least. Many boards were designed to either just "work", or to be better compatible with the assembly methods.

 

But not every PCB amp is bad... some still use high quality components and very well thought out layouts, and some went PCB because it was the best logical way to accomplish what they wanted to accomplish with the amp, without resulting in a birds nest mess of wires and components (the likes of Soldano and Guytron immediately come to mind)

 

Why do PTP amps sometimes sound better? Well, as stated in an earlier post, its care of craft; combine that with the potential for use of better components, and shorter signal paths.

 

Do all PTP amps sound better? No, of course not! Circuit design is first and foremost the most important factor... second, just because its easier to implement a wider array of components, doesn't mean that they still don't go for the cheap stuff. There is also the human variable as well... quality of solder joints alone can make or break an amp.

 

So as I just said above, circuit design is the single most important factor between a "good" sounding amp and a bad sounding amp... from there, its component choice and layout that can make the difference between a "good" sounding amp and a "great" sounding amp, and often, these differences can be quite subtle. Some have more sensitive ears to these changes, so while to them it might seem like a night and day difference, to others they could likely care less, or only notice the difference in a side by side comparison. The real problem here, like in so many other things in life, you often have to pay significantly more just to get something that is often just a little bit better.

 

Should you pay a lot more to play something that's potentially just a little better? Depends on how important that is to you and your ears... but I will say, most of us here play Heritage Guitars for a reason! (***Insert Mavguy212's signature here***)

 

...and in conclusion, none of my above gibberish even matters... if the amp sounds good, it sounds good. Period.

 

 

 

Now just for a quick note on longevity and repair-ability.... some PTP amps can still be a real PITA to repair, but most (not all) PCB amps are down right infuriating to work on, if you can even work on them at all.

[tbonesullivan]

I have seen some terrible PCB designs. Carvin had a few where they put a big fat trace on a tube daughter board right around one of the screw holes, which could cause it to short to ground and them VOOM. The problem seems to be that a lot of the PCB designers come more from the "electronics" side of things where often using convoluted tracings and such is the norm.

 

However when you get an amp designer than knows their stuff planning an PCB, it can be great. I should mention that I don't have any PTP or turret board amps at present, mainly because I find it hard to get the features I want in that style of amp. Switchable effects loops, three channels, multiple EQs, etc etc etc would be rather difficult to accomplish with turret or PTP.

[bolero]

I don't really care either way, aside from the unreliability & unrepairability factor on a lot of PCB amps.....which would sway my purchase decision

 

however, in my experience the handwired amps I have played have sounded much better than the PCB amps I have played.

 

KBP has a good point: when a manufacturer uses PCB it is often ( always?) for costcutting, so in addition to the PCB other parts are usually cheaper as well. which overall may affect the sound

 

I'm not losing any sleep over it though, I know what I like and I doubt I would ever buy a PCB amp....if it works for someone else, good for you!!

[tsp17]

 

 

...and in conclusion, none of my above gibberish even matters... if the amp sounds good, it sounds good. Period.

 

now there is some wisdom! When Duke Ellington was questioned about some of his harmonic devices he said the same thing: "If it sounds good, it is good" (story told to me by Kenny Burrell).

 

So, Brian- you are in pretty darn good company there.

[yoslate]

"JPTFT"!

[JeffB]

"JPTFT"!

Are you crazy!!

 

What we have going on in this thread is male pattern ocd at its zenith. Playing guitar has nothing to do with this discussion

[Beagle216]

 

"JPTFT"!

 

Are you crazy!!

 

What we have going on in this thread is male pattern ocd at its zenith. Playing guitar has nothing to do with this discussion

 

^^ +1,000

 

I mentioned that my preference is PTP due to the quality components and care. A lot of variables exist, and some manufacturers of PCB amps are just as tedious and produce amazing amps, I just PERSONALLY don't like the looks of it inside the chassis. This opinion is solely based on how I FEEL about what I purchased, not tone of the exact same circuit in PCB vs. P2P. I prefer handmade every time over machine produced, just the way it is.

 

 

The more I read into this thread, the less I cared about the debate. You bought what you bought for a reason, shut up and go play it. Does it sound good? Awesome, go play it! Does it sound like shizz? Awesome, find your nearest dump or sell it! Then, go buy one that sounds good, PCB OR P2P!!! The key word in all this is PLAY!

[Hfan]

Are you crazy!!

 

What we have going on in this thread is male pattern ocd at its zenith. Playing guitar has nothing to do with this discussion

Ouch, I resemble that remark ha ha. Playing and improving our guitar skills actually requires effort, BSing on the net is easy.

 

One challenge related to my beloved tube amps is, well, the tubes. Learning the nuances, finding sources, paying the $, dealing with failing or flakey ones, new vs NOS vs used vintage etc. Actually a source of more male pattern OCD I guess.

 

Brian, nice to hear form you.

[JeffB]

Ouch, I resemble that remark ha ha. Playing and improving our guitar skills actually requires effort, BSing on the net is easy.

 

One challenge related to my beloved tube amps is, well, the tubes. Learning the nuances, finding sources, paying the $, dealing with failing or flakey ones, new vs NOS vs used vintage etc. Actually a source of more male pattern OCD I guess.

 

Brian, nice to hear form you.

Hey, Im completely and totally in there with everybody else.

2014 is going to be the year I start just playing for the love of it again.

Might be through a ptp or a pcb amp. Maybe just an acoustic. Either way it will sound good.

Probably a ptp Ive had for over 25yrs. It amplifies stuff.

[Vanschoyck]

I want to thank everyone who took some time to respond to this thread. I know there's a hot button or two in this topic so I appreciate the effort all the more so.

 

I'm finding amp shopping a little more challenging than I used to. The PTP is a real buzz word in the market right now and I know I've owned and used amps of that type in the past unaware. Of course I need yet another amp for no particular reason other than I want one to accessorize the new guitar (that I thought I would have by now!)

 

It used to be easier, I think, because I had to just get what was available and what I could afford, and had to be at least as loud as the other guitar in the band. Or else I would get what my favorite player was using at the time. The price of opulence is too many options I suppose.

 

So, I still have some questions that I'd like to put out for consensus. And this has been very helpful, believe it or not. Thanks everyone! (Oh, and keep it coming.)

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[Blunote]

So far, I'm two for two on the PCB tube amps I've owned. That means I've had to have circuit boards repaired on both. I expect that sort of thing on the mass marketed Blues Junior, but not on the Guytron -it's built like a tank. But for some reason, it was putting out about double the rated power and I guess that took out a couple of components. So, all things being equal, I favor PTP amps over PCB.

 

That said, the Guytron is a very sophisticated amp. The tone adjustments are dynamic and it has Voicing and Focus settings that re-route the signal through different circuit paths. It wouldn't be economical to build that birds nest into each amp without charging $4-5,000 for them. If I had to give up every amp but one, this would be the one I'd keep. So, while i favor P2P amps for certain reasons, i'm not locked into that preference for every purchase I make.

[tbonesullivan]

Well, just remember that back in the day, when the only PCBs you found in amps were usually in the Capacitors, that the PTP amps could look nice and organized, or they could be a rat's nest.

[TalismanRich]

Nothing like a nice, neat, simple point to point wiring job to give you a good clean sound.....

 

 

[tsp17]

P2P vibe aside, I do love my PCB PRRI, once I put in a 12" speaker. Sounds great. focused yet warm tube tone. Also love my solid state Acoustic Image Clarus 2R. Amazing portability, reliability and clarity. It is what I gig with most for those reasons.

[GuitArtMan]

Nothing like a nice, neat, simple point to point wiring job to give you a good clean sound.....

 

 

There actually may be some validity in having it look like a rats nest. Wires that are parallel to each other are more susceptible to cross-talk I chuckle when I see those amps that have all the wires twist tied to gather in straight lines with right angle bends - it may look neat but it does nothing for the sound and may (probably?) makes the amp noisier.

[tsp17]

here's a clean machine: PTP Comins/Alessandro Jazz amp.

 

[H]

And here's the inside of my Vibrolux. More knobs, more jacks, more components, more wire!

 

[buzzy]

'60's Skylark

[tbonesullivan]

dang, those resistors have some looooong legs.

[rockabilly69]

This is what a Top Hat Club Deluxe looks like inside. Pretty simple and easy to repair if necessary!

 

 

[yoslate]

This is what a Top Hat Club Deluxe looks like inside. Pretty simple and easy to repair if necessary!

 

 

 

Miss my Vibra-Trem 20! My next amp will be another Top Hat....