An Interesting Comparison between "Real Deal" Tube Amp and Mustang III

[Dell18]

I agree with the last couple posts completely. One, of the last 7-8 places I've played, I don't get mic'ed up. There's no need. Even with a 20w amp. Two, there's a reason there are 100 SS amps that emulate tube amps and 0 ZERO tube amps that emulate a SS amp. I'm gonna say it again, I've heard killer SS tones out of guys for 25 years and as soon as they get on stage they're tone is gone. There's a reason no Pro's truly use SS amps. They almost always suck and my point was, if your using YouTube or the computer to judge an amp your just being silly. You have to be in the room playing it. I'm sure I could find clips of a Crate SS outperforming a Soldano SLO if I wanted and having expierience with both I can tell you that's a Pinto vs a Ferrari. I'm always stunned on here about guys who play through a Roland Cube changing pick ups on their $3000 guitars to get a better tone. Your playing and your amp are 90% of your tone. I mean c'mon. Can anybody name one, just 1 song that was recorded on a Fender Mustang? I know I'm being a prick now but seriously. Mustang 3?

[JeffB]

I agree with the last couple posts completely. One, of the last 7-8 places I've played, I don't get mic'ed up. There's no need. Even with a 20w amp. Two, there's a reason there are 100 SS amps that emulate tube amps and 0 ZERO tube amps that emulate a SS amp. I'm gonna say it again, I've heard killer SS tones out of guys for 25 years and as soon as they get on stage they're tone is gone. There's a reason no Pro's truly use SS amps. They almost always suck and my point was, if your using YouTube or the computer to judge an amp your just being silly. You have to be in the room playing it. I'm sure I could find clips of a Crate SS outperforming a Soldano SLO if I wanted and having expierience with both I can tell you that's a Pinto vs a Ferrari. I'm always stunned on here about guys who play through a Roland Cube changing pick ups on their $3000 guitars to get a better tone. Your playing and your amp are 90% of your tone. I mean c'mon. Can anybody name one, just 1 song that was recorded on a Fender Mustang? I know I'm being a prick now but seriously. Mustang 3?

Last night I tried to post in this thread and spent quite a while editing it until I finally gave up and didnt post.

Your comment about yt are spot on. I have posted on yt a few times and even went through a process of dialing in amps guits and fx to suit yt.

The best result I ever had was getting a reasonable sound out of a PODXt Live. Up loading the track to yt fattened and warmed up the mids, smoothed out the peaky top end and rounded out the bottom end.

I guess its just compression.

All my tube amp clips have too much bass, no top end and seem muddy compared to the original hard drive recording which sound about right.

So, to get the best sound on yt with my gear and my tube amp I would have to dial the bass right back and pull up the treble and presence. It would sound bad while playing but would probably sound alright listening back through yt.

Another incident that makes me question the worth of yt as a reliable comparison tool is that a video I did of a pedal ended up on manufacturers site. It wasnt his stomp. I mislabeled a couple of vids and he thought it was his stomp. One was a mashall type pedal and one was a ts type pedal. Theyre both guitar sounding pedals. I seem to sound the same what ever I use.

 

I can honestly say there is a world of difference in real life between a Mustang and the EC. They both amplify an electric guitar certainly. But its like comparing homogenized, pasteurized watered down city milk to the real stuff on your cornflakes.

[schundog]

This is all very interesting discussion, guys, and don't get me wrong; I LOVE tube amps as much as the next guy. If you offered me the EC over the Mustang to own, don't think I'm dumb enough to pick the Mustang. ALL Mustangs, ALL modelling/sampling gear will be yesterday's news when something with more clarity comes out next year or the next, rendering the current offerings all the appeal of a Commodore 64 or TRS-80 computer. It's simply the nature of the beast. That doesn't mean I don't have fun with my Mustang I and Mustang III at home, and get great tones at ANY VOLUME I want, while my beloved tube amps have to sit there with cold tubes because I have to keep the family peace when I want to play at 10:00 at night. Do touring pros use them for live work? No. It wasn't ever designed to be used for that, but don't tell me it can't be used on small club gigs, or in Worship Band settings. RhodeScholar, a much better player than many of us, has put that myth to rest with his Mustang III.

 

I have heard about the phenomenon of the sound of these types of amps getting completely lost in the mix in live settings, particularly with the now-discontinued Fender Cyber-Twin. Fender tried to address that with the upgraded model Cyber-Twin SE, and most agree that, while a fraction of the cost of the Cyber-Twins, the Mustang series has much better tone due to advances in processing technology over the last decade. Still, I respect Kenny and Daniel way too much to disagree with what they have experienced in real-life settings. Now, again, to show I'm just playing Devil's Advocate, if you bought a Cyber-Twin in 2002 for $1200, it would, today, be considered obsolete and you might get $400 or so for it. If you bought a DRRI at the same time for around $600-800 (I did) you would still have a tube amp that is produced and sold today and probably for years to come, and could get your $600 back out of it easily. I think it would sound better, too. But not at whisper volumes, and you wouldn't be able to futz with every possible effect on the planet, purely for fun's sake. You could with the modeler.

 

At the time of the original Cyber-Twin's "lost in the mix" complaints, some online explanations attributed the reason to the fact that the tube amps have "harmonic complexity" that simply hasn't been able to be reproduced in the modelers. Any of you tube gurus have a more scientific explanation on that? It certainly sounds plausible, I, like Kenny, just don't know how to explain it.

 

Dell18, I get what you are saying. Tube amps rock, and I love mine. The Mustangs are cheaply built with plastic input jacks that WILL crap out, and, as BillM of Blues Jr. fame says about them, they are basically a PCB board in a box. They know they will probably be obsolete by the time they wear out, so why not offer the best processing power at the time at a very low price? The $250 I paid during a sale at MF wouldn't go far in scratching my tube amp itch, and the Mustang has given me back it's $250 in entertainment value. No regrets here. I know YouTube isn't the greatest way to make any comparisons, but unless you guys all want to come over today (I'm not going anywhere, snowed in), it's all we have to use. Here is another video, using the Mustang IV this time. Peace, Brothers!

 

[schundog]

Last one, I promise. This guy is too hard to watch play for long, haha.

 

[tulk1]

A friend of mine just sold a Cyber Twin head and 4x12 CT cab for $300. with a floor board controller. That was all he could get for it, after starting at $800. Thing is, the SS fading phenom isn't just the Fenders. It's every SS amp I've ever seen that was in what I'd call a "dynamic" band. Which, generally means loud .

 

edited to add: the only SS amps I've seen that can keep up are the old Peavy Nashvilles that steel players love so much. And honestly, every steel player we've had that was using one was SO GD LOUD that we had to ask them to turn down or cover the amps.

[ridethatbike]

Just out of curiousity, in a live situation how would a SS amp at 100db be any different than a tube amp at 100db? Are there some sort of harmonics that allow the tube amp to be heard in a live situation? I'm not doubting y'alls real world experience, but my mind is trying to wrap itself around this.

[tulk1]

Just out of curiousity, in a live situation how would a SS amp at 100db be any different than a tube amp at 100db? Are there some sort of harmonics that allow the tube amp to be heard in a live situation? I'm not doubting y'alls real world experience, but my mind is trying to wrap itself around this.

Thats the conundrum we've been tossing around. You'd think it'd hang just fine. But too much experience says it won't. Unless it's blasting SO LOUD you can't hear anything else. It has to be in the subsonics or harmonics. But really, no clue.

[rockabilly69]

A friend of mine just sold a Cyber Twin head and 4x12 CT cab for $300. with a floor board controller. That was all he could get for it, after starting at $800. Thing is, the SS fading phenom isn't just the Fenders. It's every SS amp I've ever seen that was in what I'd call a "dynamic" band. Which, generally means loud .

 

edited to add: the only SS amps I've seen that can keep up are the old Peavy Nashvilles that steel players love so much. And honestly, every steel player we've had that was using one was SO GD LOUD that we had to ask them to turn down or cover the amps.

Yep I've dealt with those Nashvilles, they are EAR-Bleeders!!!

[schundog]

Let me add one more variable to the mix; tonight, I was running my Line 6 POD HD 300 through the effects loop of my TUBE Ibanez TSA15 Head, so it was utilizing the power tubes of the amp. Would the sound cut through the live mix with this type of setup? Just curious. It sounded damn good using a variety of "amps," including the Bassman and the Gibtone.

[JeffB]

I have used an xtlive Through The loop of a fender concert. It works. Volume was ok. Didn't think much of th od or gain settings compared to stomps in front of The Amp.

[JeffB]

The Kustom amps were SS werent they.?

 

Cant imagine Mr Fogerty getting lost in the mix.

 

[barrymclark]

The Kustom amps were SS werent they.?

 

Cant imagine Mr Fogerty getting lost in the mix.

 

Hush you. Amps like this and the JC120 are not be mentioned as they do not exist.

[bluwoodsman]

Didn't listen all the way through but I thought B was the tube amp and the one I liked a bit better. Subtle at times but seemed A had a tighter less rich sound. Not sure how you can expect people to determine with a recording though, no way it replicates the sound of sitting next to them live.

[bluwoodsman]

Here's another test, specs on gear at the end. I think you can hear the "cut through" quality of the tube amp a bit better here.

[Yooper]

 

I'm always stunned on here about guys who play through a Roland Cube

 

 

Ever hear Pat Martino and his Roland? How about Joe Pass and Herb Ellis and their Polytones?

 

I love tube amps too, but man...

[barrymclark]

 

I'm always stunned on here about guys who play through a Roland Cube

 

 

Ever hear Pat Martino and his Roland? How about Joe Pass and Herb Ellis and their Polytones?

 

I love tube amps too, but man...

 

 

Hush you. Quality SS amps don't exist. Don't even get started on Class D.

 

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

[bluwoodsman]

Here's another test, specs on gear at the end. I think you can hear the "cut through" quality of the tube amp a bit better here.

2nd time around, not sure what happened.

 

[Yooper]

He's comparing a Blues Jr and with a "280 Watt" GK???? Seems to me there's some, er, bias, here.

 

I think this is a better example of comparing:

 

[Dell18]

Sometimes, we hold really late jams and my singer gets me drinking too much before dropping me off if he drove. Hence my kinda a-hole posts on this subject. Hold up boys. We had practice tonight and this may be another. First of all, I'm not trying to dis all SS amps. I Looove Andy Summers through a JC120. I recorded my first stuff using a 1st gen Marshall 8100 Valvestate and still love that one thing it does. At times I'm trying to get my tube amps to do what it did. I was just trying to point out you cannot use YouTube to judge an amp. And the player matters. I remember dumping my Valvestate for an $1,800 head, going to show all excited about my gear and having (an amazing guitarist who I hold in very very high regard) get onstage after me using a beat to shit LP through a Valvestate combo and just completely out tone me. We both did clean and mid and high gain stuff and he just smoked me on all counts. His tone blew me out. Tone!!! His shit sounded sooo good. If I put clips on YouTube of me through an SLO vs Robin Trower through a Crate? It won't be close. And yes. My favorite recordings were mic'ed and compressed. Uhhh, but through vintage mic's and $3,000 Pultec compressors run into Neve1073 pre's engineered by Badasses. Not Billy Hillbilly, his iPhone and a YouTube intern. There might be a difference there. Sorry. I warned ya I might get dicky.

[Dell18]

And hold up, all you jazz guys can just chill. You play at lower volumes than us rock/hard rock/ punk/metal guys. Yes, you're lower volume SS amps on clean can kill it. I've heard killer stuff out of hollow body's through SS amps in jazz settings. I am not disrespecting that option.

[schundog]

So what you are saying is:

 

1. Not all SS Amps Suck. Agreed. I had a Marshall Valvestate once, and I agree, they are badass (and HEAVY! Thick PDF cabs).

 

2. The Player matters. Yes, agree completely. I'd sell my soul to play like SRV, even if I had to use a Crate SS for the rest of my life.

 

3. YouTube isn't the best way to judge tone. I agree. Just don't turn it around, then, and use YouTube as a tonal arguement for anything boutique or high end. You can't have it both ways. I wish, short of us all sitting in the same room listening to the samples, we had a better way to compare. We don't.

 

4. You can be a Dick when you drink. Can't we all. Friends Don't Let Friends Post Drunk.

[barrymclark]

So what you are saying is:

 

1. Not all SS Amps Suck. Agreed. I had a Marshall Valvestate once, and I agree, they are badass (and HEAVY! Thick PDF cabs).

 

2. The Player matters. Yes, agree completely. I'd sell my soul to play like SRV, even if I had to use a Crate SS for the rest of my life.

 

3. YouTube isn't the best way to judge tone. I agree. Just don't turn it around, then, and use YouTube as a tonal arguement for anything boutique or high end. You can't have it both ways. I wish, short of us all sitting in the same room listening to the samples, we had a better way to compare. We don't.

 

4. You can be a Dick when you drink. Can't we all. Friends Don't Let Friends Post Drunk.

Agreed on all points. I find YouTube to be about as useful for demos as actually hearing a person play right in front of me. YMMV. For me, all I look for in the demo's is whether or not the amp or whatever gets in the right ballpark. I have found that even if someone is actually playing the amp in front of me, once I play through it, it sounds very different. There are numerous amps that I LOVE when other people play through them but when I do, it just loses something. There are other amps that I am rarely impressed with when others play through them, but just adore it when I do. So... all I listen for, if I am not playing through it, is whether or not it gets in the ballpark, ...and I don't mind if people think my amp is a Pinto. The important part is the amp does what "I" want it to do. Not what people on a forum want it to do. I have honestly gotten away from characterizing amps as better unless we are talking build quality. The reality is, I love my Cube but the next guy may not be able to do anything with it. That's true with ANY amp. I have bought countless tube amps over the past 28 years and only two I would say I really, really loved the sound of: Peavey 5150 (original run) for high gain and an AC30 (newer) for cleans on the edge of breakup. The 5150 was built like a tank (...and about as heavy) and the AC30 was built like crap. In fact, I had a hard time finding one in a store that was fully functional. Never did actually. Real shame, too,. If there was an actual amp that I liked better than the Cube model, it was the AC30. The other models hung in there nicely with the originals.

 

 

...and even though I have a lot of gear that fits nicely into the jazz category, I cut my teeth on heavy metal and punk. So... my tastes vary greatly. While there are a number of tube amps I like for the higher gain stuff, I am still perfectly content with my Cube in those respects. ...and I have played at band levels with bands with it. I used an extension cab, but used it none the less.

[les paulverizer]

Modelling has come a long way for sure, but it's "modelling", which implies it copies what, for a lack of better terms, we could call "the real thing". Modelling can sound impressive in a shop, someone's bedroom, and also when recording; I have cut a whole album with one of those things and it did indeed serve the purpose.

HOWEVER(!)..... one thing is to be at the receiving end (i.e. listener) and quite another is playing through a modelling amp/unit; the feel is completely different, especially the tail end of the notes, the way they decay.

For me it's got to be a valve or hybrid amp, loud and cooking, then I have total control of the sound.

On the other hand I see how avant-guard guitarists like Adrian Belew, Elliot Sharp, Fred Frith, etc. etc. could use modelling technology to a great effect; just use it for what it is and make it do its "own" thing, whatever that ends up being, but if you try to use it like you would a Marshall/Vox/Fender.... forget it.

And like someone wisely pointed out before, you just can't tell sounds and tones from You Tube, Mp3. etc. etc. :you gotta "be there", then the differences can be massive...

[barrymclark]

Modelling has come a long way for sure, but it's "modelling", which implies it copies what, for a lack of better terms, we could call "the real thing". Modelling can sound impressive in a shop, someone's bedroom, and also when recording; I have cut a whole album with one of those things and it did indeed serve the purpose.

HOWEVER(!)..... one thing is to be at the receiving end (i.e. listener) and quite another is playing through a modelling amp/unit; the feel is completely different, especially the tail end of the notes, the way they decay.

For me it's got to be a valve or hybrid amp, loud and cooking, then I have total control of the sound.

On the other hand I see how avant-guard guitarists like Adrian Belew, Elliot Sharp, Fred Frith, etc. etc. could use modelling technology to a great effect; just use it for what it is and make it do its "own" thing, whatever that ends up being, but if you try to use it like you would a Marshall/Vox/Fender.... forget it.

And like someone wisely pointed out before, you just can't tell sounds and tones from You Tube, Mp3. etc. etc. :you gotta "be there", then the differences can be massive...

Completely understand. I tend to prefer the feel/response of solid state but dig the tones that often come with certain valve amps.

[JeffB]

Modelling has come a long way for sure, but it's "modelling", which implies it copies what, for a lack of better terms, we could call "the real thing". Modelling can sound impressive in a shop, someone's bedroom, and also when recording; I have cut a whole album with one of those things and it did indeed serve the purpose.

HOWEVER(!)..... one thing is to be at the receiving end (i.e. listener) and quite another is playing through a modelling amp/unit; the feel is completely different, especially the tail end of the notes, the way they decay.

For me it's got to be a valve or hybrid amp, loud and cooking, then I have total control of the sound.

On the other hand I see how avant-guard guitarists like Adrian Belew, Elliot Sharp, Fred Frith, etc. etc. could use modelling technology to a great effect; just use it for what it is and make it do its "own" thing, whatever that ends up being, but if you try to use it like you would a Marshall/Vox/Fender.... forget it.

And like someone wisely pointed out before, you just can't tell sounds and tones from You Tube, Mp3. etc. etc. :you gotta "be there", then the differences can be massive...

Hey les paulverizer, been a long time between posts. Wondered where you had got to.