Why is Gibson still so prevalent and Heritage not so much on the major player scene?

[skydog52]

 

This was the original thought that Paul was questioning. I answered his question with logical answers while many here took

it as a reason to bash Gibson. Marketing is rarely why players choose Gibson, it's why Gibson chooses players, and that is

not the question posed. Paul was asking why heavy hitters were slinging Gibsons. A very small percentage of these players

get anything more than some free guitars from Gibson. They choose the guitar they would use! And most of these guys

played Gibsons before they got any kind of endorsement deal so that should speak volumes. Do you honestly think that if

given the same deal from Heritage they would switch? I don't, and I personally know some of these guys! One of them

being my brother who was offered a sponsorship from Gibson. And as for Gibson using this for marketing that has been

by done all of the makers, it's just plain good business sense, Heritage chooses not to do that, and as it's been said, maybe

they don't want that kind of growth, and perhaps couldn't handle it.

 

And this business about Kalamazoo being the only place that makes a REAL Gibson is ridiculous. Some of the worst guitars

and "innovations" in Gibsons history originated in Kalamazoo. The Norlin era of Gibson produced some of the worst quality

control ever! Fortunately both Gibson and Heritage have reversed many of the decisions that were made concerning the

way many of their guitars were built since then.

 

When hear Gibson bashing, I just roll my eyes, as without Gibson, there would be no Heritage, and very little market for Heritage

guitars. And it seems that many people here forget that alot of Gibson Kalamazoo people did leave and go to Nashville. And, I can't

count the number of times I've heard "I bought a Heritage because I couldn't afford a Gibson". Is that to say a Heritage is just a

cheaper version of Gibson, no, as a matter of fact when it comes to archtops I feel some Heritages are the cream of the crop!!!

I would love to buy a high end Heritage archtop, but when it comes to Les Pauls, I have to go with Gibson's custom shop as they

use the components I want on a Les Paul, and the build specs as in hide glue and no truss-rod sheath. It's taken them years to

get there, but that's what they are doing, so that's why I would choose them. I bought three Heritage guitars in one years time

to get a feel for what they were about, and I've concluded that from what I've seen, they are fanatastic guitars, and are an excellent

value. Are they perfect? No, all three of mine needed fretwork, had badly cut nuts, and the soldering was sloppy on two of the

three. And I had to replace the hardware and electronics on the two I kept. Have I bashed them? No, I corrected the those things

and now they are great guitars, and even with the extra money spent, they were better values to me than buying a comparable

Gibson historic. I think buying a used Heritage H150 with their low resale value, and modding them is one of the smartest Les

Paul style guitar buys on the planet. But if money is no object, or a company is offering me an endorsement, I'm taking the one

who makes the best starting point, and that to me it's the Gibson custom shop. I don't talk about my endorsements much, but I

have a few, and more importantly, I've turned down a few for the same reasons we are talking about. If Gibson offered me an

endorsement under the condition that I would only play their guitars, I could live with that, because of the reasons I stated. I

couldn't say that about any other company. Not Martin, not Fender, not PRS, not Heritage not anyone! The only thing I would need outside of the Gibson camp would be a National resonator, because Gibson doesn't do a biscuit or tricone style reso as far as I know. But nine out of ten times, when I'm out earning the live performance cash, especially on big money gigs, I've got a Gibson in my hand. And I've had to spend my hard earned money on those guitars.

 

Yes, I have played some Gibson duds, the Firebird I bought a few years ago had ridiculous quality control. It had too small pickup

springs, bad solder joints on the pickup covers, fret file marks on the fingerboard, and those crappy banjo tuners that wouldn't hold

tune, and the balance on that guitar, because of those ridiculously heavy banjo tuners, was the worst of any guitar I owned.

I couldn't unload that guitar fast enough! But since then I got two birds that were GREAT, and the issues that plagued the first one

had been corrected in the second two. The bad one was a Gibson USA (memphis built), and so are the two new ones so it looks like Memphis stepped up their game. I guess when you build that many guitars a few duds are bound to slip through the cracks, but I bought that guitar on a professional discount, and sold it for what I paid (after I fixed the problems), so no harm done. And I know the new owner of that guitar who put a Callaham bridge and Steinberger tuners on it, and now it's his favorite guitar!

Not to be confused with Skydog. We have 2 on this forum I am Skydog52. For the record. Gets confusing sometimes.

[Redsand]

Matt,

Challenge accepted!

 

Next time you're over, let's give it a shot. I did an A/B with my H-150 Classic and a custom shop Goldtop '57 RI, and confirmed the LP had that classic LP tone (Beano and "Gently Weeps) I have in my head. At first I was bothered by the noticeable difference, but came to accept the differences as complimentary sounds. I love my 150 Classic with the SD '59s as a great alternative. Along with my H-150 GT with P-90s, I have a considerable range of cool LP sounds. Not actual '56, '57, and '59, but the P-90s, A2s, and A5s get me as close as I can get to the vintage "trinity", and as used instruments, for the cost of a single new custom shop LP.

 

That said, I'd love to inherit any custom shop LP. One more couldn't hurt, right?

 

Alright, sounds fun!

[Kuz]

John, that's not an accurate price by any means, they are just fishing for people with loose wallets:) I am sure your Carolinas are excellent guitars, and I included McInturff as one of the more tweaked Les Paul variants with Yaron, Bartlett. But, I will hold to my opinion that I would prefer a new R9 as I was blown away by the build quality of the new models, but more importantly the guitar that I tried, played and sounded, exactly how I would want one to. And that is all I need! If my friend would sell me that guitar, I would sell all of my Les Paul types tommorrow to buy it, and I love my R0 and my Heritages. Remember I have played some vintage bursts and 335's in my day and I feel the new models can hang. Gibson custom shop Les Pauls are not mass produced like the USA models, you would be surprised but the amount of hands on work they receive. The stuff that is done with machines makes sense...

 

http://www2.gibson.com/news-lifestyle/features/en-us/219-gibson-custom.aspx

 

And this thread is about why people would rather be endorsing Gibson so that's why I posted what I did.

 

That's fair Daniel and I have no problem with your stance with Gibson CS LPs, BUT.... have you ever played a McInturff Carolina.... have you ever played MY Carolinas? It would be hard to say "I would only want an R9 because it sounded exactly like I wanted it to" without personally trying a McInturff, Yaron, or Bartlett.... just holding you a little accountable

 

But as far as your opinion on Gibson R9 is for you, I have no problem, certainly not from a pro. But you can understand where others are comming from when prior to 2013 Gibson has a line of guitars called "Historic" and they aren't even using real Rosewood (not to mention the other variables that you metioned) that made those guitars no where close to authentic LPs..... and still charged the same high price tag.

 

But I appreciate your candid post on the topic.

[rockabilly69]

 

That's fair Daniel and I have no problem with your stance with Gibson CS LPs, BUT.... have you ever played a McInturff Carolina.... have you ever played MY Carolinas? It would be hard to say "I would only want an R9 because it sounded exactly like I wanted it to" without personally trying a McInturff, Yaron, or Bartlett.... just holding you a little accountable

 

.

No John, I haven't played your Carolinas but I've played a real Burst and that's why I said I would take the R9, it gave me that tone.

It's the same tone Terry McInturff was shooting for, no accountability necessary, I KNOW what I like!!!. and the Historics Standards

have always used real Rosewood although in 2012 they used two-piece fingerboards. I would love to play your Carolinas and maybe

we can make that happen:)

[rockabilly69]

Not to be confused with Skydog. We have 2 on this forum I am Skydog52. For the record. Gets confusing sometimes.

Sorry Skydog52! That is confusing, but one more Allman fan can't be all that bad:)

[HANGAR18]

 

 

 

 

Perhaps you noticed that I haven't been bashing Gibson lately.

Pointing out that they are HUGE into aggressive marketing is not a bashing statement; that's just how they are.

I am even willing to concede that that the custom shop re-issues that you speak of are everything that you say they are.

But let me ask you this... If Gibson offered you an endorsement deal, (must only play Gibson guitars, blah blah blah) but said that they would only provide you with production line Studio or production line Standard model Gibson Les Pauls (for your electric guitar needs), would you still accept the endorsement deal?

 

It seems to me that the needle on the quality meter has a wide sweep between their (Gibson's) lower priced USA models and their other models which are priced around the six grand mark or above. On the other hand, comparing apples to apples, Heritage seems to deliver equally high quality with all of their current production line solid body models (ie H137-H157) regardless of their price. In my humble opinion, any Les Paul made in the USA ought to have the same level of quality (I'm not talking about features like binding or no binding) as any other USA made Les Paul. I would expect less of a Korean Epiphone Les Paul but not a USA made Les Paul. I don't think all USA Gibson Les Paul model guitars are made to the same standards. Even if you did get a Gibson endorsement deal and they gave you all the custom shop R9 RI's you wanted, you would still be promoting the entire brand, including the low quality models that Gibson offered.

[Vanschoyck]

You know, I'm still stuck on Elvis' tail fins. (Mentioned a while back, if I'm not loosing it.) If chevy offered a car that looked like that today I might consider one.

[jimsoloway]

You know, I'm still stuck on Elvis' tail fins. (Mentioned a while back, if I'm not loosing it.) If chevy offered a car that looked like that today I might consider one.

 

[skydog]

Not to be confused with Skydog. We have 2 on this forum I am Skydog52. For the record. Gets confusing sometimes.

And Paul has been a member here longer than I have. A full 16 days longer!

[heritagefan7]

I like both...I've had great versions of both and some issues with both. Guitars are (can be) works of art---HOWEVER, I prefer to use them as tools to make art...so they are not the end, but the means to the end. I like both versions b/c both can make great art!

 

Gibson's (certainly the name) been around a long time...has big name players in their stable, and are hanging on the high hooks on every guitar center wall--that every guitar star wanna be walks in and sees--floating there in the heavens. It's an icon--on a pedestal. People like shiny--iconic things---thus Gibson is popular.

IMO they can both make great guitars---Heritage prob makes a lot less duds than Gibson b/c of QC and craftsmanship.

 

Again, my op counts for squat. But when I'm famous and making a ba-zillion dollars, I'm going to use both tools as a means to create the art that I am inspired to create!....& when I make a ba-zillion dollars, I taking everybody on the HOC out to lunch...with my Gibson endorsement check!

[rockabilly69]

 

Perhaps you noticed that I haven't been bashing Gibson lately.

Pointing out that they are HUGE into aggressive marketing is not a bashing statement; that's just how they are.

I am even willing to concede that that the custom shop re-issues that you speak of are everything that you say they are.

But let me ask you this... If Gibson offered you an endorsement deal, (must only play Gibson guitars, blah blah blah) but said that they would only provide you with production line Studio or production line Standard model Gibson Les Pauls (for your electric guitar needs), would you still accept the endorsement deal?

 

It seems to me that the needle on the quality meter has a wide sweep between their (Gibson's) lower priced USA models and their other models which are priced around the six grand mark or above. On the other hand, comparing apples to apples, Heritage seems to deliver equally high quality with all of their current production line solid body models (ie H137-H157) regardless of their price. In my humble opinion, any Les Paul made in the USA ought to have the same level of quality (I'm not talking about features like binding or no binding) as any other USA made Les Paul. I would expect less of a Korean Epiphone Les Paul but not a USA made Les Paul. I don't think all USA Gibson Les Paul model guitars are made to the same standards. Even if you did get a Gibson endorsement deal and they gave you all the custom shop R9 RI's you wanted, you would still be promoting the entire brand, including the low quality models that Gibson offered.

 

 

Now that's a gigmobile, I love that one and it's the same color as Kuz's guitar! And I would love to see the face on

some of the high society types I play for when I rolled up to a gig and unloaded guitars out of that!

[rockabilly69]

 

Perhaps you noticed that I haven't been bashing Gibson lately.

Pointing out that they are HUGE into aggressive marketing is not a bashing statement; that's just how they are.

I am even willing to concede that that the custom shop re-issues that you speak of are everything that you say they are.

But let me ask you this... If Gibson offered you an endorsement deal, (must only play Gibson guitars, blah blah blah) but said that they would only provide you with production line Studio or production line Standard model Gibson Les Pauls (for your electric guitar needs), would you still accept the endorsement deal?

 

It seems to me that the needle on the quality meter has a wide sweep between their (Gibson's) lower priced USA models and their other models which are priced around the six grand mark or above. On the other hand, comparing apples to apples, Heritage seems to deliver equally high quality with all of their current production line solid body models (ie H137-H157) regardless of their price. In my humble opinion, any Les Paul made in the USA ought to have the same level of quality (I'm not talking about features like binding or no binding) as any other USA made Les Paul. I would expect less of a Korean Epiphone Les Paul but not a USA made Les Paul. I don't think all USA Gibson Les Paul model guitars are made to the same standards. Even if you did get a Gibson endorsement deal and they gave you all the custom shop R9 RI's you wanted, you would still be promoting the entire brand, including the low quality models that Gibson offered.

 

Hanger, I am currently using a Gibson USA Firebird, which I modified the hell out of, and a Les Paul Special Jr that I replaced the Nashville bridge with a nylon saddle ABR and a lightweight tailpiece. They are two of the bottom tier guitars. But I wouldn't take the deal unless I got custom shop Les Pauls, as I already have all the Gibsons I need...

[rockabilly69]

Heritagefan7 said... I like both...I've had great versions of both and some issues with both. Guitars are (can be) works of art---HOWEVER, I prefer to use them as tools to make art...so they are not the end, but the means to the end. I like both versions b/c both can make great art!

 

 

Gibson's (certainly the name) been around a long time...has big name players in their stable, and are hanging on the high hooks on every guitar center wall--that every guitar star wanna be walks in and sees--floating there in the heavens. It's an icon--on a pedestal. People like shiny--iconic things---thus Gibson is popular.

IMO they can both make great guitars---Heritage prob makes a lot less duds than Gibson b/c of QC and craftsmanship.

 

Again, my op counts for squat. But when I'm famous and making a ba-zillion dollars, I'm going to use both tools as a means to create the art that I am inspired to create!....& when I make a ba-zillion dollars, I taking everybody on the HOC out to lunch...with my Gibson endorsement check!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Yes, good guitars are definately art, and IMO Gibson is the master painter, it's not just Les Pauls with me, these are my work guitars:)

 

[skydog]

 

But when I'm famous and making a ba-zillion dollars, ..& when I make a ba-zillion dollars, I taking everybody on the HOC out to lunch...with my Gibson endorsement check!

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I forget, how many million in a bazillion?

[HANGAR18]

But when I'm famous and making a ba-zillion dollars, ..& when I make a ba-zillion dollars, I taking everybody on the HOC out to lunch...with my Gibson endorsement check!

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I forget, how many million in a bazillion?

 

A little more than a gozillion.

[heritagefan7]

There are less than a quadrillion but more than $20 in a bazillion....that way im already successful! Its all gravy from here!

[skydog52]

And Paul has been a member here longer than I have. A full 16 days longer!

You gotta love our Avatars!

[Guest HRB853370]

You gotta love our Avatars!

I think I will become Skydog53.....just to add confusion.......

[bolero]

 

Yes, good guitars are definately art, and IMO Gibson is the master painter, it's not just Les Pauls with me, these are my work guitars:)

 

 

 

that's a nice group of instruments!!

[HANGAR18]

I think I will become Skydog53.....just to add confusion.......

 

That would not surprise me, coming from a guy who drives slow in the fast lane just to tick people off.

[Gitfiddler]

 

That would not surprise me, coming from a guy who drives slow in the fast lane just to tick people off.

 

And keeps his left turn signal on while in the fast lane.

 

Just kidding, Will. Couldn't resist!

[Guest HRB853370]

 

And keeps his left turn signal on while in the fast lane.

 

Just kidding, Will. Couldn't resist!

LMAO! But the truth is, you are right!!!!!

[augfive]

I love how in the middle of this thread I saw the name 'Kirn" somewhere! He is still the best guitar builder for many reasons IMO, and if he ever started making Gibson types, he would be inundated with orders im sure.

[smurph1]

Gibson has been around forever, and has an international name that everyone knows.. Un or Fortunately depending on how you look at it, Heritage is our little secret.. By the way what happened to Vince? I hadn't heard..

[bolero]

Aliens. Roswell.