Answer to Sweet 16 binding area problem

[MartyGrass]

Recently there was controversy over a 2006 Sweet 16 that has some unstained streaks near the binding. I discussed this with someone "in the know" to find out what causes this. Certainly I've seen it before on naturals.

 

Here's the explanation. The guitars are sprayed with the binding on them. The binding is then scraped. This can be done perfectly but often there are imperfections.

 

One type of flaw is to leave some of the finish on the binding. This is pretty common and is no big deal.

 

Another type of imperfection is to inadvertently scrape the neighboring wood, taking off the stain. That's what seems to be the case here.

 

It's easier for this to go unnoticed in the process when the finish is natural, for obvious reasons.

 

I don't know who was scraping the bindings back in 2006. It got past him/her, past the hardware guy, and the final inspector. It's hard to imagine that no one saw it. I believe they all felt the final guitar was "good enough".

 

So is it a defect? That's a philosophical question. All Heritages show signs that they were hand made.

 

Could it have been done better? Yep.

 

That's my report.

 

[Vanschoyck]

I wonder, can it be touched up if desired? There was talk of a re-fin on the top but could it be done with a little touch around the effected edge?

[MartyGrass]

I brought an archtop to Ren Wall once to ask about a similar touch up. He looked at me puzzled and asked, "Does this bother you?" This was an epiphany as to his frame of mind. I have found that he reflects the general feeling of most others at Heritage- that they produce great guitars that look good, even great, but not works of art, at least primarily.

 

The edge of the top can be touched up, but it's unlikely to match. The antique natural finish dye varies from batch to batch plus the top has aged.

[Blunote]

If it was mine and the imperfections really bothered me, I'd get a chunk of sitka spruce, some aniline stains and some aniline dye and mix it until it matched. It doesn't have to be perfect as there are already different shades of color present in the wood. Then apply it with a foam brush, sponge, or cloth. Or, take it to a furniture repair person. They do this sort of thing all the time.

 

Unlike poly finishes, nitrocellulose is repairable. Get a thimble full somewhere and cover the newly stained parts with a couple of thin coats -then call it good.

[Vanschoyck]

I brought an archtop to Ren Wall once to ask about a similar touch up. He looked at me puzzled and asked, "Does this bother you?" This was an epiphany as to his frame of mind. I have found that he reflects the general feeling of most others at Heritage- that they produce great guitars that look good, even great, but not works of art, at least primarily.

 

The edge of the top can be touched up, but it's unlikely to match. The antique natural finish dye varies from batch to batch plus the top has aged.

 

That's kind of what I would expect. My 16 was a gig guitar for some years and most of what's wrong with it happened from my use and mishaps. If it was mine I wouldn't be worried but some folks are all about that kind of thing. Don't get me wrong, every time my guitar gets dinged I feel it like it happened to me. And then it becomes a scar just like the ones on me. My guitars look better than me on my best day!

[tbonesullivan]

They are hand made, and often that level of precision may not be possible with hands. It's not really possible to tape it off, and also sometimes the scraping can cause adjacent finish to come off. at 3 feet away, no one is going to see it.

[MartyGrass]

If it was mine and the imperfections really bothered me, I'd get a chunk of sitka spruce, some aniline stains and some aniline dye and mix it until it matched. It doesn't have to be perfect as there are already different shades of color present in the wood. Then apply it with a foam brush, sponge, or cloth. Or, take it to a furniture repair person. They do this sort of thing all the time.

 

Unlike poly finishes, nitrocellulose is repairable. Get a thimble full somewhere and cover the newly stained parts with a couple of thin coats -then call it good.

 

You're exactly right. It's bare wood on those spots, and they would take up the dye readily. While it would be difficult to get a perfect match, it would not be hard to get close.

[tbonesullivan]

It's not a stain. It's the color coat. If it was a stain this wouldn't even be an issue, as it wouldn't even adhere to the binding and could be rubbed off. The reason the scraping is needed is because it's a translucent paint, and the other option would be to precisely tape the binding, which just wouldn't be possible.

[MartyGrass]

It's not a stain. It's the color coat. If it was a stain this wouldn't even be an issue, as it wouldn't even adhere to the binding and could be rubbed off. The reason the scraping is needed is because it's a translucent paint, and the other option would be to precisely tape the binding, which just wouldn't be possible.

 

You are correct. The stains at Heritage are mixed with nitrocellulose.

 

Nonetheless stains can be applied to bare wood with clear nitro over the touch up areas. That's pretty easy to do and will look pretty good. Just don't expect perfection.

[tbonesullivan]

They can yes, but the problem is that the stain would absorb differently than it would in a color coat vehicle. it would most likely end up a lot darker. The real way to do it would be to have some of the paint, and touch it up with a VERY fine brush. Then wait for it to dry, and clear coat it. The color coats I believe are usually not nitro anyway (and weren't back in the OLD DAYS either).

[Blunote]

They can yes, but the problem is that the stain would absorb differently than it would in a color coat vehicle. it would most likely end up a lot darker. The real way to do it would be to have some of the paint, and touch it up with a VERY fine brush. Then wait for it to dry, and clear coat it. The color coats I believe are usually not nitro anyway (and weren't back in the OLD DAYS either).

That's why you test the color on separate piece of wood -then apply it to the guitar when you get a good match. You could probably also mix the pigment into the nitro -I can't see that there'd be any advantage to it.

 

Mass produced furniture and guitar and guns are generally finished with pigment mixed into the top coat. It costs less since you reduce the number of coats that must be applied. The best furniture tends to be stained, then finished with subsequent clear coats. I'd expect higher end guitar makers would too.

[yoslate]

With all due respect: JPTFT.... Sheesh!

[SouthpawGuy]

With all due respect: JPTFT.... Sheesh!

 

[Thundersteel]

I brought an archtop to Ren Wall once to ask about a similar touch up. He looked at me puzzled and asked, "Does this bother you?" This was an epiphany as to his frame of mind.

 

I had a similar conversation with Ren when I had my H157. The fretboard binding on the upper frets looked like they were filed by a blind person--very sloppy and uneven. I talked to Ren about this, and he asked me the exact same thing! BTW--yes, it DOES bother me! That's one of the reasons I let it go.

[2bornot2bop]

I had one of those with the top scraping disease. After I sold the archtop I later learned that's an EZ fix with a Sharpie 'touch up marker'...Lem, archtop's main repair guy, turned me on to them...they come in different shades...they're a very quick fix...cheap too.

 

[tsp17]

very informative thread.

[chico]

With all due respect: JPTFT.... Sheesh!

Sorta like "shut up and dance!"

[bolero]

I found this information useful, thx guys

[ScottNaylor]

very informative thread.

+1

[jimsoloway]

I think that one of the worst things that ever happened to human perception is macro-photography and the internet. We are presented with flaws that seen by the human eye in the correct perspective may be small enough to ignore but blown up and in perfect focus they look enormous. It has made most people overly critical of some things that really aren't important (in my opinion) and it has put a demand on quality control that is not consistent with the hand-craft nature of a company like Heritage. the detail work on my H575 is not nearly as clean as my $600 Ibanez but as a musical instrument, it's a much better guitar, so I really don't care.

[MartyGrass]

I agree.

 

There is a point of diminishing return when you pursue perfection. That point is only a short distance from the beginning.

 

In my previous life I did amateur pistol smithing. There are more similarities than differences with luthiery. People would bitch in person and on forums about tool marks and finish flaws all day long. Most of the good competition shooters had road worn pistols that performed very well but looked like crap.

 

So it comes down to what do you want from your tool. Some JPTFT. Some want to look at it and maybe show it off. Some want to tweak it and enjoy making modifications. Personally I do some of each.

[jimsoloway]

In my former life (when I actually had some money) I collected watches. It was right at the beginning of the the digital cameral age and watch collectors were experimenting with macro photography for the first time. People were actually going to the trouble of buying inexpensive electronic microscopes and photographing through the scope. Details were being blown up so much that flaws that were absolutely invisible to the naked eye looked like huge imperfections. Those were then being posted as early internet forum leading to arguments that would run for dozens of pages on how horrible the workmanship was on these expensive (sometime very expensive) watches. There was a complete disconnect from reality.

[yoslate]

When I went to the shop last week to check out the progress on the Dent build, Jack addressed one point quickly. He scrapes the edge of the maple top to resemble binding. Contrasted to the dark mahogany back and whatever color of the top, it looks really nice! He explained, almost unapologetically, that, since I'd wanted a red top, there'd be bleed into the scraped maple faux binding. Nothing to do about it. Red just really bleeds, and there it is. And it is there. If you're looking for it, at it, it's clear to see. He said, "Just think of it as a fingerprint." Works for me. I asked Jack how he thought it might affect the tone....

[Hfan]

Another reason I like to buy guitars with already added bumps and bruises. Minty guitars make me anxious.

[jimsoloway]

Another reason I like to buy guitars with already added bumps and bruises. Minty guitars make me anxious.

There is something to be said for that. I almost look forward to getting the first ring in mine just to get it over with.