Lunchtone Report: Fenders and Voxes....and Fenders. Oh my!

[barrymclark]

So I took my recently fixed Eagle to an oddly low volume Guitar Center to play through the Princetons and Deluxe Reverbs they had. While there, I also plugged into the Vox AC30 they had.

 

First the Vox. Sounded great. The reverb and trem were perfectly smooth through both channels. The only thing that bugged me was that, these days, I like a strong mid, warm and fuzzy bottom with a VERY rounded off top. The Vox was all that but the highs only got rounded off to my liking with all tone controls to the extreme to do so. I really had no more on the dial.

 

The Silverface reissue Princeton was gone but they did have their normal one. So, I played through that.

 

BEAUTY! The kids were very, very present....the bottom was warm and fuzzy and the highs were easily rounded off. The reverb was easily tameable and the trem could be set subtle enough for me to truly enjoy. I would have liked slightly more boom out of the bottom but I surely wouldn't kick this one out of bed for eating crackers.

 

Next, the Silverface reissue Deluxe Reverb.

 

Again. ...beauty! The bottom end had more of that boom that I was after while having the well rounded highs and present mids. This was the trem channel. The Normal channel (from what I hear is Bassman inspired) again was very nice. The mids weren't as lush to me as the Princeton but again. .. the bed. .. the crackers.

 

Interesting how tastes change. I once truly loved scooped mids on everything. Now, I want the opposite.

 

 

[Kuz]

I was just talking to another HOC member today about this. Princetons have more mids and are closer in tone stack to the tweed issue fenders. Deluxe reverb amps will be much more mid scooped then Princeton amps based on the circuitry.

[barrymclark]

I was just talking to another HOC member today about this. Princetons have more mids and are closer in tone stack to the tweed issue fenders. Deluxe reverb amps will be much more mid scooped then Princeton amps based on the circuitry.

Indeed. If I could get a little more boom out of the Princeton, that would have been the hands down winner for me. I suppose this is why you hear of so many doing the 10" to 12" conversion.

 

I'd really like to hear what a 12 coupled up with the 10 would do.

 

...a Prince-twin....haha

[Kuz]

Indeed. If I could get a little more boom out of the Princeton, that would have been the hands down winner for me. I suppose this is why you hear of so many doing the 10" to 12" conversion.

 

I'd really like to hear what a 12 coupled up with the 10 would do.

 

...a Prince-twin....haha

My Headstrong Lil' King is a Princeton Reverb clone and it has a 1x12, which I feel is a huge improvement!

[barrymclark]

In fairness, I didn't spend a lot of time tweaking the tone controls to see if the bass could be brought up. The Eagle I have is very high toned. The 'ping' that was just barely avoidable with the Vox was just gone with the Princeton.

 

I may finally have found a Fender sound that I really dig on.

[barrymclark]

Oddly enough, when I got home, I plugged right into my Cube because what I was enjoying on the Princeton seemed pretty close to what I was getting at home.

 

The Cube is set to the Twin (Black Panel), the B-M-T-P set to 9-12-9-7 (o'clock) with the gain all the way down. I have a subtle reverb and trem as well. Barely noticeable.

 

Very close....the difference is there was terrific (bell-like?) ring to the Princeton that just isn't as present on the Cube. It also wasn't as present on the Deluxe. When I played my more recent version of Sleep Walk, the natural harmonics had a terrific ring to them.

 

Don't worry....the Cube is staying.

 

[Kuz]

Interesting because I wouldn't think of "bell-like" or "chime" being associated more with a Princeton over a Deluxe Rev or Vibrolux Rev.

 

I would think of a Princeton being more tweedish or thicker than a Deluxe Rev.

[barrymclark]

Interesting because I wouldn't think of "bell-like" or "chime" being associated more with a Princeton over a Deluxe Rev or Vibrolux Rev.

I would think of a Princeton being more tweedish or thicker than a Deluxe Rev.

It's all in what you figure bell like to be I think. The Vox, being known for its chime, was way too bright for the hog Eagle. The Deluxe was much better here (for my needs) than the Vox but the midrange of the Princeton was just wonderful and everything about it was just smooth and subtle. Of course, my approach to playing and guitar choice have a lot to do with how the amp sings.

[Billgelder]

I was just talking to another HOC member today about this. Princetons have more mids and are closer in tone stack to the tweed issue fenders. Deluxe reverb amps will be much more mid scooped then Princeton amps based on the circuitry.

You know John that is the second time that has happened. One thing my Princeton does better then any other amp I have owned is it is very touch sensitive. The volume has a sweet spot between 7 and 9 depending on the guitar. If I hit the strings lightly it rings. If I hit them hard it growls, and a little of both in between. The only issue I have with the Princeton is it is not loud enough to use with the band. Not to highjack the post, but is there an amp that sounds just like a Princeton but is twice as loud?

[barrymclark]

 

I was just talking to another HOC member today about this. Princetons have more mids and are closer in tone stack to the tweed issue fenders. Deluxe reverb amps will be much more mid scooped then Princeton amps based on the circuitry.

 

 

You know John that is the second time that has happened. One thing my Princeton does better then any other amp I have owned is it is very touch sensitive. The volume has a sweet spot between 7 and 9 depending on the guitar. If I hit the strings lightly it rings. If I hit them hard it growls, and a little of both in between. The only issue I have with the Princeton is it is not loud enough to use with the band. Not to highjack the post, but is there an amp that sounds just like a Princeton but is twice as loud?

I'd agree with all things here...except for the sweet spot bit. Not because I think you're wrong but only because it varies from person to person and guitar to guitar.

 

You can get an amp that sounds like the Princeton but louder: either a more powerful Princeton or more speakers from the Princeton. A second speaker would really get the sound up there.

[Kuz]

You can get an amp that sounds like the Princeton but louder: either a more powerful Princeton or more speakers from the Princeton. A second speaker would really get the sound up there.

I don't think I agree with this.

 

1) Princeton circuitry (at very least the tone stack) is different from other Fenders, so how do you get a "louder Princeton" if the circuitry is somewhat unique

2) A second speaker, an extension cab with the internal speaker engaged, would only disperse the sound not make it louder. (if anything a second extension speaker would lower the overall dBs)

3) A more efficient internal speaker COULD increase the output dBs, so I do agree with you here.

 

Then again, I probably should defer to someone much more knowledgable than me.... Hello, paging SLIDER....

[barrymclark]

You can get an amp that sounds like the Princeton but louder: either a more powerful Princeton or more speakers from the Princeton. A second speaker would really get the sound up there.

 

I don't think I agree with this.

1) Princeton circuitry (at very least the tone stack) is different from other Fenders, so how do you get a "louder Princeton" if the circuitry is somewhat unique

2) A second speaker, an extension cab with the internal speaker engaged, would only disperse the sound not make it louder. (if anything a second extension speaker would lower the overall dBs)

3) A more efficient internal speaker COULD increase the output dBs, so I do agree with you here.

Then again, I probably should defer to someone much more knowledgable than me.... Hello, paging SLIDER....

Of course I was over simplifying it. Either of those options would require some retooling on a Princeton (if memory serves where the we're stage is concerned....and it may not) but the overall apparent volume will increase with more speakers assuming your amp is up to the task regarding loads.

 

All things being equal, doubling the speakers in parallel will yield a doubling of apparent volume.

[barrymclark]

Oops. The above is not correct. It would be a half over increase of apparent volume and not doubling.

[smokedtires]

Interestingly Barry, your sound preference is very similar to mine but I don't play jazz (not enough talent here ). I think having strong mids forces you to be an honest player whereas I can hid abit with scooped mids.

[Kuz]

Oops. The above is not correct. It would be a half over increase of apparent volume and not doubling.

I am not trying to be a PIA, but if a Princeton puts out 12watts of power through 1 speaker how does adding another speaker increase the output wattage? It doesn't. Two speakers would mean you have the same amount of output wattage divided between two speakers. Thus the "sound spread" increases, but the volume (dBs) does not. Or in other words, the amp is not louder with two speakers.

[barrymclark]

Interestingly Barry, your sound preference is very similar to mine but I don't play jazz (not enough talent here ). I think having strong mids forces you to be an honest player whereas I can hid abit with scooped mids.

Not enough talent here but that doesn't stop me!

 

i can't say there's technical reason behind the tone that i like... but there's no question that it has much in common with the stereotypical tonal tastes of the jazz standards world.

 

it has taken me years to separate what i hear in my head as my voice (on guitar) and what i think i want it to sound like. It did hit me one day in one my many indecisive bouts of amp acquisition mania to ask, "What is it you do when you play purely for your own pleasure?" The answer wasn't rocking faces off or swinging it up like setzer or chunking through some standards. Nope, I like tunes to almost lullaby-like. That sound when you hear a mom or dad singing to their kid to get them to relax and sleep. It may not be technically worth a flip but, man, is it ever beautiful. Since my playing is already technically not worth a flip, all i need to do now is somehow make it beautiful. haha.

 

 

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[Billgelder]

I'd agree with all things here...except for the sweet spot bit. Not because I think you're wrong but only because it varies from person to person and guitar to guitar. You can get an amp that sounds like the Princeton but louder: either a more powerful Princeton or more speakers from the Princeton. A second speaker would really get the sound up there.

I did say "depending on the guitar". The hotter the pickup the lower the volume setting is to find "the sweet spot". As for person to person, well I'm only one person. I have unplugged the internal speaker and plugged into a 2*12 Marshall. This did increase the volume, but not enough, and it lost its Princeton tone.

[barrymclark]

I'd agree with all things here...except for the sweet spot bit. Not because I think you're wrong but only because it varies from person to person and guitar to guitar. You can get an amp that sounds like the Princeton but louder: either a more powerful Princeton or more speakers from the Princeton. A second speaker would really get the sound up there.I did say "depending on the guitar". The hotter the pickup the lower the volume setting is to find "the sweet spot". As for person to person, well I'm only one person. I have unplugged the internal speaker and plugged into a 2*12 Marshall. This did increase the volume, but not enough, and it lost its Princeton tone.

Surely it did. It went from a 10" to 12" and to what I assume is a sealed cab and not an 8 ohm load.For a 2 speaker extension cab, you'd need to get two speakers voiced similar to that in your Princeton at 16 ohms and wire them parallel in a box constructed similarly to that of the combo. Some tweaking of the cabinet and speakers will likely be in order to get it just right. Otherwise you'd need to mod your Princeton power stage if you wanted to use two of the 8 ohm speakers that come stock with your Princeton.

 

[smokedtires]

You guys are correct. When I was into car audio, we would see what an amp was stable too for ohm resistance. By adding more speakers, you can lower the ohm resistance which is like going from a garden hose (16 ohms) to a fire hose (4 ohms) for greater power output. These were not tube amps, but I would assume the same would apply with guitar/audio amps.

 

BTW, always enjoy reading your lunchtime reports!

[barrymclark]

You guys are correct. When I was into car audio, we would see what an amp was stable too for ohm resistance. By adding more speakers, you can lower the ohm resistance which is like going from a garden hose (16 ohms) to a fire hose (4 ohms) for greater power output. These were not tube amps, but I would assume the same would apply with guitar/audio amps.

 

BTW, always enjoy reading your lunchtime reports!

glad you dig em!

 

 

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[Kuz]

You guys are correct. When I was into car audio, we would see what an amp was stable too for ohm resistance. By adding more speakers, you can lower the ohm resistance which is like going from a garden hose (16 ohms) to a fire hose (4 ohms) for greater power output. These were not tube amps, but I would assume the same would apply with guitar/audio amps.

 

BTW, always enjoy reading your lunchtime reports!

True, lowering the ohm resistance will make the amp work harder and become louder. But this is not always practical (or safe ) for the life of the amp. When I said that adding another speaker would not make the amp louder, I was assuming a speaker swap that would keep the ohm resistance the same as the stock original speaker & same ohm resistance. Some modern amps have the ability to change the ohm resistance on the back of the amp, but vintage amps don't have this feature.

 

Bottom line, when adding or changing speakers be careful of the ohm load.

[Billgelder]

The amp and the internal speaker are both 8 ohms. So is the 2*12 Marshall cabinet. The Marshall cabinet is also a closed back and the speakers are much more efficient. That alone would increase the volume. I do not want to make any changes the Princeton, What I am looking for is a louder amp that sounds and reacts just like a Princeton.

[barrymclark]

The amp and the internal speaker are both 8 ohms. So is the 2*12 Marshall cabinet. The Marshall cabinet is also a closed back and the speakers are much more efficient. That alone would increase the volume. I do not want to make any changes the Princeton, What I am looking for is a louder amp that sounds and reacts just like a Princeton.

Yeah. If you don't want any changes, then yeah... you'd have to go looking. Maybe a good modeler? AxeFx or something? I've got a decent approximation with my Cube... but I wouldn't say they are anywhere near identical.

[Kuz]

The amp and the internal speaker are both 8 ohms. So is the 2*12 Marshall cabinet. The Marshall cabinet is also a closed back and the speakers are much more efficient. That alone would increase the volume. I do not want to make any changes the Princeton, What I am looking for is a louder amp that sounds and reacts just like a Princeton.

Seems like it's time for me to send out the secret "bat signal" to the amp whisperer and clear up some of these questions ....

 

Hopefully, I can post some knowledge answers tonight.

[slider313]

The Princeton and Princeton Reverb amps have a cathodyne phase inverter, where the other larger Fender amp have a long tailed phase inverter. The inefficient cathodyne pi limits output in the power supply and has a different "feel" when the amp is pushed, when compared to the long tailed pi. The Princeton amps also use the same power transformer as the Champ amps. The 12 watt output transformer also saturates much sooner than a larger unit would. In theory you could build a larger wattage amp to try to capture the sound and feel of a Princeton but the sum of the components and how they react within the circuit design make it what it is.