Plek Question

[skydog]

How long does the Plek treatment "last"? After you've made a seasonal adjustment for a couple years is the Plekking still "intact"?

[GuitArtMan]

In my case it didn't even last from Heritage, to Jupiter, to San Diego.  I've had set up issues with all three of my pleked Heritages.

[AnH555]

I have considered getting a guitar or two Plek'd. My experience with pro setup guys hasn't been that good. Neck stability seems to vary on guitars - on some of mine the setup never changes, others keep changing. If I get my Heritage Plek'd again it will be after a couple years, after the neck is settled and unchanging. The shop nearest me that would do it is in Oklahoma. I'd think Heritage would do it for a price, but news is they're pretty backed up right now. Plus I live in a climate far different than Kalamazoo's. Surely my neck would change before the guitar even got home. The word I read most often to describe Carvin's setup is "impeccable". My Hamer has a great action. And if I knew a luthier who got me superb results I'd stick with him.  I'd like to give Plek a try for my next setup.

[rooster]

All the PLEK setup does is grind the frets. A good fret job, to me, is much better. My last H150 was PLEK'd from the factory, and, as usual, I re-leveled and crowned all the frets myself, for a significantly better playing guitar. IMO, a PLEK job is much better than a hack job on your frets, but someone who knows what they are doing can do a much better job by hand.

 

As far as truss rod adjustment and bridge/nut action, that has nothing to do with the PLEK process. I still prefer the old-school methods, and will always be doing my own setups/fret jobs/tweaking.

 

rooster.

[golferwave]

  Amen.

[yoslate]

Ditto to Rooster!  I have a setup guy (Lucky me) who's a "A Wizard, A True Star!"  I've never taken anything to him which, after his drinking strychnine and handling snakes over it, hasn't played like a different instrument...always to the good.  It's experience, eye, and touch.  No substitute!

                                                                                                                             

[GuitArtMan]

All the PLEK setup does is grind the frets. A good fret job, to me, is much better. My last H150 was PLEK'd from the factory, and, as usual, I re-leveled and crowned all the frets myself, for a significantly better playing guitar. IMO, a PLEK job is much better than a hack job on your frets, but someone who knows what they are doing can do a much better job by hand.

 

As far as truss rod adjustment and bridge/nut action, that has nothing to do with the PLEK process. I still prefer the old-school methods, and will always be doing my own setups/fret jobs/tweaking.

 

rooster.

Bingo.  My guitars get sent to Michael Tuttle at bestfrets.  Plek schmeck - Michael's made all of my Pleked Heritges play much better than stock.

[Kazwell]

Guess this explains why I feel an inherent stiffness in the action on my new and first Heritage. I remember playing an H-150 in a shop last year and thinking -"this is strange, they hardly ever put 11's on at the factory." Then I was surprised when the salesperson said they were in fact 10 gauge as was (and most likely is still) the standard. Thought it was just a fluke.

NOW I know why I had such a hard time getting the "feel" all week.  Last night -after a week's worth of countless truss rod and bridge adjustments, I finally was able to get the guitar to feel somewhat like I'm used to which is a more medium action.

So it sounds like I need to get this thing refretted in order to undo the plek process in order to get this thing to play and feel like all my non pleked guitars. Is this correct?

[yoslate]

Re-fretted?  I would think not!  Find someone who knows guitar, has set up lots of them, and listens to you.  Let him have a spank on a stick which has the feel, the setup you desire.  Then request same on your new 150. 

 

I have a Super Eagle ordered, and if I'm ever lucky enough to actually take delivery, it'll go straight out of the box to Tom for a set up: truss rod tweeze, bridge adjustment, fret dress and polish, probably one of his bone nuts, while we're at it.  I use .011's on all my guitars, and no one who picks them up believes it.  Having someone like Tom to take my guitars to is the closest I'll ever come to stardom!  Good Luck, Kazwell.

[GuitArtMan]

Guess this explains why I feel an inherent stiffness in the action on my new and first Heritage. I remember playing an H-150 in a shop last year and thinking -"this is strange, they hardly ever put 11's on at the factory." Then I was surprised when the salesperson said they were in fact 10 gauge as was (and most likely is still) the standard. Thought it was just a fluke.

NOW I know why I had such a hard time getting the "feel" all week.  Last night -after a week's worth of countless truss rod and bridge adjustments, I finally was able to get the guitar to feel somewhat like I'm used to which is a more medium action.

So it sounds like I need to get this thing refretted in order to undo the plek process in order to get this thing to play and feel like all my non pleked guitars. Is this correct?

You shouldn't need a re-fret unless you want a different size fret. 

[groovin]

My 575 was plek'd at the factory and is as straight as a dye.  I'm impressed!  Maybe I got  lucky for  once.  The only issue I ever had was the standard rosewood brige and saddle.  With these the action was too high for my taste and there wasn't enough adjustment in the saddle to lower it enough.  I bought a Tunomatic bridge and contacted Heritage to request a cut down saddle so I would have enought adjustment to play with.  Ren was very helpful and send me the replacement saddle free of charge.  Now I play with a feather weight string tension using 11's and a very low action that doesn't  rattle  because of the excellent neck job.

 

My only negatives with the guitar are that the pots are already crackly even though it is kept  in its case when not in use, and its tendency to feedback which is just part of the character of the design.

[Andy R]

I couldn't disagree more. A Plek job is a mathematically perfect fret dress. If a neck isn't stable, all the fret work in the world won't help. Ren sent me a mahogany neck 555 that he plekked, and the neck moved around a little for the first couple of months, and then settled in to being the best setup I've ever seen on any guitar ever. The action is stupid low and every note rings true. The only thing I had done was Joe Glaser tweaked the nut and the bridge.

[Thundersteel]

I've never had a problem with any of my Heritages in that area. I agree with Andy R. If the neck isn't set-up properly and stable, then all the fret dressing in the world won't help it.

[Gitfiddler]

I've never had a problem with any of my Heritages in that area. I agree with Andy R. If the neck isn't set-up properly and stable, then all the fret dressing in the world won't help it.

 

Fortunately, that was the exact same situation with my '07 H-555.  I had it tweaked a bit a week or so after delivery and it's been singing ever since.

 

With guitars being primarily made of wood and glue, anything can happen over time, so it can be luck of the draw. 

 

Plek'ing is simply a more precise, consistent way of getting frets leveled.  Some Plek operators are better than others, just as some luthiers are better than others.

[GuitArtMan]

I couldn't disagree more. A Plek job is a mathematically perfect fret dress. If a neck isn't stable, all the fret work in the world won't help. Ren sent me a mahogany neck 555 that he plekked, and the neck moved around a little for the first couple of months, and then settled in to being the best setup I've ever seen on any guitar ever. The action is stupid low and every note rings true. The only thing I had done was Joe Glaser tweaked the nut and the bridge.

Hmmm... I'd put a Tom Anderson up against any pleked guitar any day of the week and it will more than hold it's own.  As will Don Grosh guitars.  As will early PRSs (don't know how the QA is these days that he is HUGE).  As will the McInturff's I've playes.  And the Zions. 

 

I will also say my Anderson's didn't need to "settle in".  Nor have the PRSs I've owned.  Or the Don Groshs.  They all played perfectly out of the box and never once did I even need to tweek the truss rod.  My guess is that the new boys on the block properly age/dry/cure the wood before the guitar is built - not after!  The also proerly level and radius the fingerboard before the frets go on - not after.

 

I'm not ragging on Heritage as I love 'em - but there is definitley room for improvement. 

 

You may notice I left Suhr out of the picture - he is now a notable plek user.  I've owned two Suhrs, both classics, one pre-plek and the other pleked.  Neither one played as well as my Andersons.  Or the Don Grosh's I've owned.  In my experience a good luthier most definitely can match a plek fret job (if not beat it).  And he will also adress the nut and bridge to acieve the perfect set up.

[PacerX]

I couldn't disagree more. A Plek job is a mathematically perfect fret dress. If a neck isn't stable, all the fret work in the world won't help. Ren sent me a mahogany neck 555 that he plekked, and the neck moved around a little for the first couple of months, and then settled in to being the best setup I've ever seen on any guitar ever. The action is stupid low and every note rings true. The only thing I had done was Joe Glaser tweaked the nut and the bridge.

 

BINGO.

 

The Plek is capable of work that a human being simply isn't - but will NEVER be more capable than the background work that went into the guitar or the stability of the neck system.

 

Any problems post the Plek process are indicative of variability in the neck system due to other issues in the build.

[PacerX]

I will also say my Anderson's didn't need to "settle in".  Nor have the PRSs I've owned.  Or the Don Groshs.  They all played perfectly out of the box and never once did I even need to tweek the truss rod.  My guess is that the new boys on the block properly age/dry/cure the wood before the guitar is built - not after!  The also proerly level and radius the fingerboard before the frets go on - not after.

 

I think you touched on the very issue in question in one respect - that being the seasoning of the wood.

 

The other is the consistency of the operations PRIOR to the Plek job.

 

Which, btw, has a solution also...

 

Here's an example:

Taylor teaches other companies how to do fret jobs (Gibson recently went to Taylor for some education), and their guitars are universally renowned for playability.  The REASON they are is because Taylor has absolutely stunning repeatability in their builds.  They all feel the same because they ARE the same.

 

If you've played one 414 CE L7 like mine, you've played them all.

 

The ideal situation is rock-solid repeatability combined with the skills that an uber-luthier can bring to the table.

 

Anderson is a CNC house, btw, with the perfect blend of technology and craftsmanship - have the machine do what the machine is best at, and the human do what the human is best at.

 

http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Arti...rson_Interview/

[GuitArtMan]

The other is the consistency of the operations PRIOR to the Plek job.

 

Anderson is a CNC house, btw, with the perfect blend of technology and craftsmanship - have the machine do what the machine is best at, and the human do what the human is best at.

 

http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Arti...rson_Interview/

Bingo, bingo, and bingo!  The propper time for precision fret work is before the frets are installed.  I still maintain you will not improve an Anderson by pleking it.  The plek machine will probably report back - "Perfect set up acheived".  What the plek machine does for those shops that have it is alows a machine to do, what a human used to do so the human can go work on something else.  I maintain all the non-pleked Anderson's I've played (dozens) played better than the pleked Suhrs I've played (maybe a dozen or dozen and a half).

 

Of course Anderson uses a CNC machines.  I you read many of my posts you'll see I hope that the new Heritage will start using CNC machines to increase the consitency of their instruments.  As I've said, their is room for improvement.

 

PS  I live about 20 minutes from the Taylor facotry btw - great tour.  I also live about 20 minutes from the Carvin factory.  I don't personlay care for Carvin's designs, but they are well made and play beautifuly.

[PacerX]

Bingo, bingo, and bingo!  The propper time for precision fret work is before the frets are installed.  I still maintain you will not improve an Anderson by pleking it.  The plek machine will probably report back - "Perfect set up acheived".  What the plek machine does for those shops that have it is alows a machine to do, what a human used to do so the human can go work on something else.  I maintain all the non-pleked Anderson's I've played (dozens) played better than the pleked Suhrs I've played (maybe a dozen or dozen and a half).

 

Of course Anderson uses a CNC machines.  I you read many of my posts you'll see I hope that the new Heritage will start using CNC machines to increase the consitency of their instruments.  As I've said, their is room for improvement.

 

PS  I live about 20 minutes from the Taylor facotry btw - great tour.  I also live about 20 minutes from the Carvin factory.  I don't personlay care for Carvin's designs, but they are well made and play beautifuly.

 

It's like we were separated at birth or something, my brother!

 

Did you catch Tom Anderson's commentary in the article?  Here's a quote for our friends here:

 

"I hear a lot of 'hand made is better than machine made,' and I don't really know what hand made is. No matter how you make something you use tools."

 

I've taken the Heritage tour twice.  Is something still "hand-made" if there is a routing fixture used?

 

I would assert that it is not, and given the fact that the routing fixture is a tool, and the CNC machine is a tool, I fail to see the difference - apart from the fact that the CNC mill will cut, day in and day out, within a .001" EVERY TIME.

 

"Hand-made" to me involves a chisel and a saw, and nobody in their right mind is going to assert that you can be more consistent with a saw and a chisel than you can with a routing fixture or (even better...) a Fadal CNC mill (which is the machine Mr. Anderson is referring to).

 

The "MAGIC" is in what hands select the wood, and do the final finishing and fitting and setup, not the method used to rout out the body.

[Paul P]

The "MAGIC" is in what hands select the wood, and do the final finishing and fitting and setup, not the method used to rout out the body.

 

I have some custom furniture making experience.  One thing I fear happening when talking about CNC

machines is their very speed.  When you make something by hand, especially with non-powered hand tools,

you have plenty of time to see what's going on in the wood as you work it.  If the piece of wood isn't

absolutely perfect you may go about changing things to best fit the final piece you're going to make out

of it.  You may end up deciding to throw the piece away if you come across some property that could

cause problems down the road.

 

Say you have a CNC machine carving necks.  I imagine the process would be to cut a whole pile of identical

billets that you would then feed into the CNC machine one at a time and perfect necks would come out the

other end.  You'd have one person (not necessarily all that skilled) sawing billets all day long and another one

(again, not much experience necessary) feeding the CNC machine.  There isn't much interaction between a

human and a particular piece of wood in this situation.  There isn't enough time or opportunity to give a piece

more than a superficial inspection between processing steps.

 

So out the other end pop perfect necks that will all start to deviate from perfect in a few seconds.  Wood

has all sorts of imperfections and internal tensions that start to act on it the minute you remove wood that

was contributing to keeping it in a balanced state.  Even if your billet is completely stable, and that's not

a given, once it's shaped into a neck things will start to move.

 

I guess you could let your necks sit around for a year or so, in various environments, and then throw out

all the ones that are not longer perfect.  I can't imagine someone like Gibson doing this but maybe they do.

 

What I like when I watch the Heritage shop tour video, which I wish was a lot longer, is that the workers

are very close to the wood they're working on and have certainly developed a feel for what is right and

what isn't as they go through the process.  I think this makes it harder for a bad piece to make it all the

way through to the final product.

[JohnCovach]

Thanks for that post, Paul; it's a nicely written account of what many of us believe (or at least hope) goes on when a guitar is made by a skilled luthier.  It's certainly true that "hand-made" does not really mean "made without tools," and that any tool is a kind of machine.  "Hand-made" really seems to mean that some craftsperson made specific decisions regarding the construction of an instrument, and the hope is that this person's skill and experience make a guitar better than if such consideration did not occur, or was done in a routine or mechanical manner.  Some of this is probably a romantic and idealistic notion of guitar building, but that's the image we have.

[PacerX]

I have some custom furniture making experience.  One thing I fear happening when talking about CNC

machines is their very speed.  When you make something by hand, especially with non-powered hand tools,

you have plenty of time to see what's going on in the wood as you work it.  If the piece of wood isn't

absolutely perfect you may go about changing things to best fit the final piece you're going to make out

of it.  You may end up deciding to throw the piece away if you come across some property that could

cause problems down the road.

 

Well, the first comment I would have is that CNC machinery is not a replacement for quality control.

 

In effect, you still have to do the checks necessary to ensure that you have an appropriate blank for the job.  Some big old knot in a piece of wood that would result in a bad neck needs to be removed from consideration.

 

The benefit is that you then allow more time at lower cost to make inspections like those.

 

But, you need to recognize, that in large part what I would tend to call "hand lapping" a part to fit another part is indicative of neither part being cut all that accurately in the first place.

 

They can be cut accurately enough that if I were to wish it, I could cut a steel pin and a hole so closely to line to line (i.e. a 1.000" pin and a 1.000" hole) that to assemble them I would put the pin in a freezer for a couple of hours.  It'll drop in nicely when cold, and as it heats up it will re-expand to fit the hole perfectly - if you consider the coefficient of thermal expansion for steel, it'll give you a good idea of the accuracy I'm talking about.  Die guide pins for stamping tools are made and assembled in this way.

 

Also, and this is no knock on you - you obviously have skills that I could never hope to replicate by hand, what you and I call "precise" are probably two different things.  To me, because of my background in engineering and manufacturing, .008" of an inch of TOTAL variation is significant variation.  It's arguable that .008" of an inch in a furniture or guitar build is more precise than necessary.

 

 

 

Say you have a CNC machine carving necks.  I imagine the process would be to cut a whole pile of identical

billets that you would then feed into the CNC machine one at a time and perfect necks would come out the

other end. 

 

Well, in truth, the way to do it is to fixture the blank properly so that accuracy in the billet (blank) isn't all that important to the final product.  Then you can save money on the operations used to cut the billet and spend that money in a place where you give your customer higher value - like more highly figured wood, or more buffing time on the finish, or something that allows you to add a feature that makes your customers happy.

 

 

 

You'd have one person (not necessarily all that skilled) sawing billets all day long and another one

(again, not much experience necessary) feeding the CNC machine.  There isn't much interaction between a

human and a particular piece of wood in this situation.  There isn't enough time or opportunity to give a piece

more than a superficial inspection between processing steps.  

 

Short of going through the process with you in detail (which I can do, but would rather not bore you to death), I can pretty well assure you that if it's fixtured properly and the datums are correctly engineered, dimensional issues with the neck would be caught very quickly.

 

Also, understand that we're talking about a significant period of time for the machine to do the cutting - Anderson stated a body takes 15 minutes to cut.  After the operator fixtures the billet and pushes the start button, it's his job to do the dimensional checks on the parts that just came off the machine to ensure they are dimensionally correct before allowing them to go to the next step in the process.

 

 

 

So out the other end pop perfect necks that will all start to deviate from perfect in a few seconds.  Wood

has all sorts of imperfections and internal tensions that start to act on it the minute you remove wood that

was contributing to keeping it in a balanced state.  Even if your billet is completely stable, and that's not

a given, once it's shaped into a neck things will start to move.

 

AHA...

 

I can fix that.

 

Understand also that any variation you would note in the CNC cut billet would also be present in the hand routed one.  To eliminate that variation, I have a trick up my sleeve that the hand operations don't.

 

 

 

I guess you could let your necks sit around for a year or so, in various environments, and then throw out

all the ones that are not longer perfect.  I can't imagine someone like Gibson doing this but maybe they do.

 

Fender keeps their wood in billets for a year in a temperature and humidity controlled environment prior to cutting to season them.

 

As you know, Fender makes a cubic bajillion guitars a year.

 

 

 

What I like when I watch the Heritage shop tour video, which I wish was a lot longer, is that the workers

are very close to the wood they're working on and have certainly developed a feel for what is right and

what isn't as they go through the process.  I think this makes it harder for a bad piece to make it all the

way through to the final product.

 

Here's a rule of thumb for visual inspections:

 

Visual inspections in a production environment with highly skilled operators pass, at a minimum, 10% of the bad parts run through them.  Meaning that if you have a guy whose entire job in life is to inspect a hole size with a caliper, he'll catch 90% of the bad parts sent to him, and miss 10% and pass that 10% along as good.

 

If you're making... say... plastic toy tanks, that's probably OK.

 

If you're making... say... seatbelt systems for cars, that's completely unacceptable.

[GuitArtMan]

I have some custom furniture making experience.  One thing I fear happening when talking about CNC

machines is their very speed.  When you make something by hand, especially with non-powered hand tools,

you have plenty of time to see what's going on in the wood as you work it.  If the piece of wood isn't

absolutely perfect you may go about changing things to best fit the final piece you're going to make out

of it.  You may end up deciding to throw the piece away if you come across some property that could

cause problems down the road.

 

Say you have a CNC machine carving necks.  I imagine the process would be to cut a whole pile of identical

billets that you would then feed into the CNC machine one at a time and perfect necks would come out the

other end.  You'd have one person (not necessarily all that skilled) sawing billets all day long and another one

(again, not much experience necessary) feeding the CNC machine.  There isn't much interaction between a

human and a particular piece of wood in this situation.  There isn't enough time or opportunity to give a piece

more than a superficial inspection between processing steps.

 

So out the other end pop perfect necks that will all start to deviate from perfect in a few seconds.  Wood

has all sorts of imperfections and internal tensions that start to act on it the minute you remove wood that

was contributing to keeping it in a balanced state.  Even if your billet is completely stable, and that's not

a given, once it's shaped into a neck things will start to move.

 

I guess you could let your necks sit around for a year or so, in various environments, and then throw out

all the ones that are not longer perfect.  I can't imagine someone like Gibson doing this but maybe they do.

 

What I like when I watch the Heritage shop tour video, which I wish was a lot longer, is that the workers

are very close to the wood they're working on and have certainly developed a feel for what is right and

what isn't as they go through the process.  I think this makes it harder for a bad piece to make it all the

way through to the final product.

A CNC machine is a tool - just like a router, or bandsaw, or planer, or...

 

The better builders are going to inpsect their pieces at critical steps along the way.  The better builders are going to reject pieces that don't come up to their standards.  The better builder are going to season their woods before they start manufacturing, not after it.  I think it's prety much a given/accepted that the better manufactures today are using CNC machines.  Even the smaller shops like Tom Anderson, Don Grosh, John Suhr, Ron Thorn.  Heck even Olson acoustics uses CNC machines. 

[Paul P]

Some of this is probably a romantic and idealistic notion of guitar building, but that's the image we have.

 

I would have thought so too until I saw the Heritage video !  The place is like a

cabinetmaking shop a hundred years ago.

 

I read a book recently "Clapton's Guitar" which is an account of the building of a guitar

in Wayne Henderson's shop.  Let's just say that Wayne is not a CNC operator... 

The Heritage factory seems to be the same sort of place, only bigger.  It makes me

feel even better about the purchase of my H535 this year.  This guitar wasn't made,

it was crafted.

 

I fear that the Heritage shop is not modern enough looking to survive the scrutiny of

a new non-woodworking president.

[Paul P]

Short of going through the process with you in detail (which I can do, but would rather not bore you to death), I can pretty well assure you that if it's fixtured properly and the datums are correctly engineered, dimensional issues with the neck would be caught very quickly.

 

The thing is, wood is not steel, it breathes.  On a rainy day it swells, then shrinks during a dry spell.  It moves more across the

grain than with it so a board will vary quite a bit in width but very little in length.  It will hardly move at all around a knot.

Quartersawn pieces may move less and in a more regular way but they move just the same.  I know you can say the same

thing about steel but it happens on such a small scale that it can be ignored for something like guitar building.  No one worries

about their tuners' dimensional stability.

 

I have no doubt that a CNC machine will spit out a neck that is dimensionally perfect.  It's what happens after that I wonder

about.  No amount of precision can help once temperature and humidy start to vary.  Those of you with climate-controlled

rooms are certainly at an advantage.

 

Using woods like rosewood and mahogany that move less will help (better yet would be lignum vitae but you'd need a crane to lift

your guitar) but there is less and less of those woods available and its quality is not like it used to be.