Plek Question

[JohnCovach]

Part of my life has been spent in the world of classical guitar.  Players will pay a lot of money, and will order years ahead of time, to get a fine hand-crafted guitar by a master builder.  These players know what craft means and they can hear it in the guitar.  Some might see it as a mistaken notion on their part, but most of these players would not own a guitar that had not been built by hand.  Maybe this is different because you can't get a machine to do a lot of what makes these guitars special (though some have tried).  A classical guitar is, after all, an entirely acoustic instrument and the repertory makes tremendous demands of the player and instrument.  If you listen to these luthiers talk, however, much of what they say echoes what Paul wrote above.

[Andy R]

I have mixed feelings about all this. It makes sense that a CNC would be a huge advantage when stamping out strat bodies. But it also makes sense that an acoustic guitar would be best braced and cut by someone with a musical enough ear and enough experience to maximize every particular piece of spruce, which do vary quite a bit. And that would go quadruple for a carved top guitar.

[dblazer]

Man, either I lack "the touch" or I'm the luckiest bastard in Heritage land; I've had four anywhere from almost 20 years old to new, and all have been great from the get-go, and haven't required any further attention.

[PacerX]

Part of my life has been spent in the world of classical guitar.  Players will pay a lot of money, and will order years ahead of time, to get a fine hand-crafted guitar by a master builder.  These players know what craft means and they can hear it in the guitar.  Some might see it as a mistaken notion on their part, but most of these players would not own a guitar that had not been built by hand.  Maybe this is different because you can't get a machine to do a lot of what makes these guitars special (though some have tried).  A classical guitar is, after all, an entirely acoustic instrument and the repertory makes tremendous demands of the player and instrument.  If you listen to these luthiers talk, however, much of what they say echoes what Paul wrote above.

 

Please describe what things in the routing of the parts of an acoustic guitar you think cannot be done as well via machine as they can by hand.

 

 

 

 

Footnote:  At the end of the day, the choice to use or not use CNC equipment is about quality.  If an operation can truly be done better by hand, it should be.  If it cannot, and I can't think of any operations that center around cutting out the body or neck that can, then it should be done by the machine.

 

The Plek is basically a CNC grinder with some fancy control software.

[PacerX]

I have mixed feelings about all this. It makes sense that a CNC would be a huge advantage when stamping out strat bodies. But it also makes sense that an acoustic guitar would be best braced and cut by someone with a musical enough ear and enough experience to maximize every particular piece of spruce, which do vary quite a bit. And that would go quadruple for a carved top guitar.

 

I assume you mean a carved top and braced acoustic or acoustic-electric.  Kind of like a jazz box.

 

To which I would reply that you still have to cut the neck and neck joint - which are both better done via machine due to repeatability.

[PacerX]

The thing is, wood is not steel, it breathes.  On a rainy day it swells, then shrinks during a dry spell.  It moves more across the

grain than with it so a board will vary quite a bit in width but very little in length.  It will hardly move at all around a knot.

Quartersawn pieces may move less and in a more regular way but they move just the same.  I know you can say the same

thing about steel but it happens on such a small scale that it can be ignored for something like guitar building.  No one worries

about their tuners' dimensional stability.

 

I have no doubt that a CNC machine will spit out a neck that is dimensionally perfect.  It's what happens after that I wonder

about.  No amount of precision can help once temperature and humidy start to vary.  Those of you with climate-controlled

rooms are certainly at an advantage.

 

The comment relative to steel was to indicate the possible precision and accuracy.  The point being that a human being simply cannot create an object with that type of precision by hand.

 

The important counter-point to your assertion of the wood drifting due to environmental conditions is that even if you cut the piece by hand, it'll do the same thing (and I'm unconvinced at this point that it's all that important due to the prevalence of CNC machinery in some of the best guitars built in the world - Anderson, PRS, Taylor, Martin, Fender Custom Shop, etc...).

 

The other critical difference being that I can eliminate that variation later with the machine, and completely eliminate the variation due to the fact that human being can't cut the object(s) as well in the first place - basically I can kill a couple of things that introduce variation into the process completely, leaving only one (changes due to environment), while the "hand-built" instrument still has all three.

 

A lot of this is really about fixturing and processing to eliminate variation - if I explained it in detail, I'm pretty sure there would be a lot of "Aha" moments from folks here.

[Dick Seacup]

If cutting the wood relieves stresses and removes support such that the billet cum neck blank is now moving again, why not cut it, let it season and settle into it's new shape (twist).  Once it's warped to where it's going to go in the rough form, mill the fretboard surface flat, rabbet (or is it dado, I always got those mixed up) the truss rod channel, shape the back and heel, glue the fretboard on and let it sit again.  I'd imagine gluing and covering the fretboard surface would keep moisture from migrating in/out through that surface, so it's not like it's going to shift a ton at that point.  After some more seasoning, mill that fretboard flat, groove it and slap the frets in. 

 

That'd be my take on it, but I'm not a woodworker, not a luthier, not a process engineer and really have no clue.

[PacerX]

If cutting the wood relieves stresses and removes support such that the billet cum neck blank is now moving again, why not cut it, let it season and settle into it's new shape (twist).  Once it's warped to where it's going to go in the rough form, mill the fretboard surface flat, rabbet (or is it dado, I always got those mixed up) the truss rod channel, shape the back and heel, glue the fretboard on and let it sit again.  I'd imagine gluing and covering the fretboard surface would keep moisture from migrating in/out through that surface, so it's not like it's going to shift a ton at that point.  After some more seasoning, mill that fretboard flat, groove it and slap the frets in. 

 

That'd be my take on it, but I'm not a woodworker, not a luthier, not a process engineer and really have no clue.

 

Basically, you're on the right track.

 

If it is going to move, let it move, and then re-fixture it and cut it again to eliminate that variation.

 

Ideally, you do that after a couple of assembly steps to remove other sources of variation from the final shape.

[Thundersteel]

If cutting the wood relieves stresses and removes support such that the billet cum neck blank is now moving again, why not cut it, let it season and settle into it's new shape (twist).

 

Isn't that the way Hamer does it? That's my understanding, anyway. I think my next guitar will be a Hamer, as I've heard nothing but good things about them, especially their workmanship and attention to detail . And yes, they're hand made, too!

[GuitArtMan]

Isn't that the way Hamer does it? That's my understanding, anyway. I think my next guitar will be a Hamer, as I've heard nothing but good things about them, especially their workmanship and attention to detail . And yes, they're hand made, too!

And they are owned by Fender now...  :'(

[PacerX]

Isn't that the way Hamer does it? That's my understanding, anyway. I think my next guitar will be a Hamer, as I've heard nothing but good things about them, especially their workmanship and attention to detail . And yes, they're hand made, too!

 

Look at this picture taken from Hamer's 2004 open house:

 

http://www.hamerguitars.com/img/hfc/photo2_lg.jpg

 

The machine in the background is a Komo CNC unit (beige with blue lettering and the dust collectors).

 

http://www.komo.com/index.html

[PacerX]

And they are owned by Fender now...  :'(

 

Well, they were owned by Kaman... i.e. Ovation/Takamine/etc...  So it's kinda like going from the frying pan into the fire as being owned by a big company goes.

 

Honestly, I like Fender - I wish they'd make a Strat and Tele with a flatter and faster fretboard radius, but they dominate blues and country in particular.  You can't throw a rock at a blues jam without hitting a Strat.  There's no disputing that G&L makes a good guitar also... they're a CNC shop too.

[Paul P]

The other critical difference being that I can eliminate that variation later with the machine, and completely eliminate the variation due to the fact that human being can't cut the object(s) as well in the first place - basically I can kill a couple of things that introduce variation into the process completely, leaving only one (changes due to environment), while the "hand-built" instrument still has all three.

 

Taking a step back, I ask : then why buy a Heritage ?  Wouldn't you be happier with a perfect specimen out of one

of the above mentioned automated companies ?  I thought one important reason why someone buys a Heritage is

precisely that it is not produced in an fully automated factory, but rather in the 'old-fashioned' way.  It's the same

with furniture.  Anybody can make a perfect table but it will have no soul, and that will show.  Make the same table

using traditional methods and it will not only likely be better built, but it will be alive and will age well.  Antiques are

popular because they have soul.  People pay big money to have quality furniture made by low-tech craftsmen and

craftswomen.  I think it's pretty impressive that Heritage can put out the quality of guitar that they do, especially

for the price they ask in return.  Am I ever glad I got one this year.  The chance may not come again, at least at

the price I paid.

 

What would it mean for Heritage to automate and up its production (which it would have to to pay for the new

machinery) ?  Would it still be Heritage ?  What would be special about a guitar coming off the assembly line ?

Wouldn't it be like a guitar being sold by IKEA ?  To me there's more to a guitar than the guitar itself.  For

instance I would never buy a guitar made in China no matter how great it might be.

 

As John Covach points out, there is an element of romanticism involved when you talk about craftmanship.  To

me it's important to think that the people who made my guitar actually cared about what they were doing.

Whether that's true or not doesn't really matter but I think there's more chance of it being true in a shop like

Heritage that in a factory like Fender.

 

Getting back to the subject of this thread, for Heritage to have a PLEK machine is kind of against their whole

way of doing things.  Just look at how out-of-place it looks in the pictures.  Maybe they'd be better off if they

got rid of it :-)

[Thundersteel]

As John Covach points out, there is an element of romanticism involved when you talk about craftmanship.  To

me it's important to think that the people who made my guitar actually cared about what they were doing.

Whether that's true or not doesn't really matter but I think there's more chance of it being true in a shop like

Heritage that in a factory like Fender.

 

Well said!

[PacerX]

Taking a step back, I ask : then why buy a Heritage ?  Wouldn't you be happier with a perfect specimen out of one

of the above mentioned automated companies ? 

 

I'm happiest with the highest quality guitar I can get my hands on that meets my needs in light of the specific job I have in mind for it.

 

Am I happy with my Fenders and Taylor?

 

You bet.

 

They sound great, they're rock solid, play like a dream, and have never required anything like a fret job or serious work to get that way.  Because of the consistency of manufacturing one gets from Fender and Taylor, they're certainly not flukes either.

 

For a Les Paul type guitar, I'm happiest with a perfect Heritage.

 

 

 

 

 

Anybody can make a perfect table but it will have no soul, and that will show.  Make the same table

using traditional methods and it will not only likely be better built, but it will be alive and will age well.  Antiques are

popular because they have soul. 

 

People forget that most "antiques" had whole reams of copies of themselves that ended up as "junk".  A large percentage of the vintage Strats and Les Pauls and Teles on the market are literally awful guitars, and were that way from the factory - they might be worth a lot because they're original, but that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they were actually quality instruments.  In many vintage guitar sales, the buyer couldn't care less if the guitar actually plays well - all he/she is looking for is whether or not it's "original".

 

In that case, you're looking at a market of people that would view a significant flaw in the instrument (like a warped neck) as being preferable to putting a replacement neck on because it's an "antique".

 

 

Also:

Please explain to me the way that a routing jig imparts "soul" into a guitar that a CNC mill is somehow incapable of matching.

 

In a router, there's a bit, coupled to an electric motor that is plugged into a wall - and the whole thing cuts wood.  That's all it does.  It doesn't inject fairy dust into the wood while it cuts it, all it does is cut it.  The CNC machine just cuts the wood more accurately than than the router and routing jig.

 

Human hands still have to do a tremendous amount of work to build a guitar that has had it's major components cut out via CNC - and they would have more time to do it, start with a more solid foundation to do it, and end up with a higher quality product in the end.

 

 

 

 

What would it mean for Heritage to automate and up its production (which it would have to to pay for the new

machinery) ?   

 

Your assumption that the company would have to up production significantly to pay for the machinery, or suddenly become a "lights out" room of robots is false.

 

Anderson makes 800 guitars a year... probably very, very close to what Heritage made/makes (maybe a little less), and managed to do it.  I can't think of any reasonable individual who would claim that an Anderson is "second rate" or "soulless".

 

 

 

Would it still be Heritage ? 

 

If adopted in such a way as to maximise the capabilities both things (the human luthier and the CNC machine) can bring to the operation, I certainly can't see why not.

 

All it would be is a more consistent Heritage, with higher quality and happier customers.

 

 

 

What would be special about a guitar coming off the assembly line ?

 

Again, your assumption that automating routing a body or neck out turns the place into a lights out automated shop is false.

 

What would be special about the system I am referring to?

 

How about this:

A flawless guitar, delivered to the customer, that doesn't need significant repair work when it gets there.  EVER.  It's still got top-notch materials all that great input into it from the luthier - but has the input where it counts.  And where it counts is not in what tool is used to shape a body.

 

I guarantee that after finishing, you could never tell which body had been routed out via a router and jig and which was routed out via CNC if I put two of them in front of you.

 

Want some proof?

 

Hamer has a multi-head CNC mill/router, bigger than life, in the background of one of their pictures there - I linked it.  I guarantee you that machine isn't used to hold the floor down or simply occupy space.  They're cutting stuff on it, and folks here swore they were better because they were "hand made".

[JohnCovach]

Please describe what things in the routing of the parts of an acoustic guitar you think cannot be done as well via machine as they can by hand.

 

I applaud your faith in quality engineering.

[Thundersteel]

Hamer has a multi-head CNC mill/router, bigger than life, in the background of one of their pictures there - I linked it.  I guarantee you that machine isn't used to hold the floor down or simply occupy space.  They're cutting stuff on it, and folks here swore they were better because they were "hand made".

They advertise that they're hand made; I didn't know they had a CNC machine. 

[Kazwell]

Let's not forget, "human hands" assembled the CNC machine.....

 

or did they?.........

[deluxemeat]

i'm sorry but i've got to link the 'human hands' myth to the same thinking that might go into not wanting to wash a part of your anatomy in warm water for fear that it might shrink beyong repair.

it's just plain silly.

 

fine guitars can come out of cnc manufacturing and pure GARBAGE can come out of a pr of human hands.

[Kazwell]

Heritage guitars ARE works of art. Anyone care to debate THIS?!!!

 

The founders/luthiers who help craft these things by their very  hands-along with the sweat of their brow and passion in their hearts to keep alive something very very special are living legacies to times past-when rock-n-roll was in it's infancy-and the age of the eletric guitar was being born which, as we all know, went on to change the world.

 

We Heritage owners are not just owners a piece of wood here, we own a freakin piece of history!!!

 

Maybe in some cases inferior craftsmanship was aided by CNC technology, case in point early Japanese knockoffs of the 60's and early 70's that have improved ten fold over the last 30 years.  But in the case of Heritage, no damn CNC piece of automated computerized nuts and bolts will ever EVER replace the hands of these Masters. Period

[Thundersteel]

Hoping not to stray too far off the topic at hand...

 

I just finished watching a Hamer DVD about how they're made. I didn't show any CNC machines, but I'm assuming they only use them to cut out the basic body shape. Then, the body top is hand carved and sanded.

 

 

Anyway...there are positives and negatives to both methods. Just as long as WE like the guitar, does it really matter how it's made?

[yoslate]

Wow, got a hold of one here!  I always enjoy watching a title bout between Objectivity and Subjectivity, particularly when "Romanticism" is sitting ringside in that fabulous red crushed-velvet number...rooting for both!

 

"If adopted in such a way as to maximise the capabilities both things (the human luthier and the CNC machine) can bring to the operation, I certainly can't see why not," says Pacer X in respose to Paul P's inquiry, "Would it still be a Heritage?"

 

Given the recent turn of events at Heritage, I'd like to back away from the tight focus on the precision or soulessness of the CNC machine over in the corner.  I'm much more concerned about the effect of the pervasive shop philosophy and how the luthiers putting my Super Eagle together view their roles in production and in the company.  How do they feel about going to work every morning, new CNC machine in the corner or not?  For example how will changes in ownership, increased production quotas, and a hundred other things about which we have no idea affect the, for lack of a more objective and quantifiable entity, vibe in a place where such an intimate thing as a musical instrument is born?  ...and no, I'm not an H.R. guy! 

 

I've really enjoyed the entries on this one, but I think PacerX has hit most of the definitive licks on this topic!  Kudos!

[Dick Seacup]

...Then, the body top is hand carved and sanded.

 

If you are referring to the contouring of the top, then that is done by hand with the use of an angle grinder (at least that's what I'd call it) with about a 5" disc on it.  The contour lines are laid out in pencil, and then the craftsman went to town with that grinder.  Now, some will say that's not "hand carved" but I'm here to tell you, there's no way I or anyone without a lot of practice and skill could have done what he did, as quickly as he did, as well as he did it.  It was amazing, as were lots of things on that tour (this past spring, BTW; courtesy of Ovation, Kim Keller and all the other employees of Ovation who kicked it in to high gear to make it happen, the Ovation Fan Club and especially Alpep of the OFC and Takamine boards). 

[JohnCovach]

Well, there's no such thing as objectivity when you're talking about something you like.  If you like the way a guitar feels and that's a more important feature than the manner in which it was built, then you like that guitar.  Or maybe it feels good and you like it that some great technology was used to build it, and perhaps to make each one of these kinds of as identical as possible.  Or perhaps you like it that the guitar feels good and you know that somebody built it "by hand," in a traditional manner. 

 

The truth is that most of us buy not only guitars, but the stories that go with these guitars.  I like the Heritage story and the way those guitars feel; I'm a bit turned off by what Gibson has become, and I like the feel of those guitars less.  I also like the G&L story and the way those guitars feel; I'm a bit turned off by what Fender has become and I like the feel of those guitars less.

 

Am I imagining these differences?  Probably not, I've been playing professionally for thirty years.  Is the feel of the guitars I like directly attributable to the way they were made (either by hand or using more mechanization)?  I can't say for sure.  I'd like to believe that's the difference, but you really can't be objective.

 

So you believe your stories and I'll believe mine . . .

[deluxemeat]

Wow, got a hold of one here!  I always enjoy watching a title bout between Objectivity and Subjectivity, particularly when "Romanticism" is sitting ringside in that fabulous red crushed-velvet number...rooting for both!

 

would that be ed romanticism? lol