Shoman Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 My new to me 2005 H-150 has a busted truss rod. It's backed completely off and the rod cannot be loosened any more. The neck is as straight as an anvil. This is what it looked like when I took off the cover. I tried backing it off more but it spins by hand and does nothing. The string height measures 4/64 on the low E side and 3/64 on the High E side. With a capo on 1 and 22 the strings are laying on the frets starting at number 10. Last night I thought the fret buzz was due to high frets on 20 and 21. That I could have fixed. But the truss rod having nothing left in it for relieve is a big deal. Here's a shot at what I got. I hate this. I really liked this guitar and was looking forward to having it for a long time. Guess I'll contact the seller and let him know that this does not work. If anyone has any ideas, let me know because I hate to return this beautiful guitar. I don't think he'd played it for a long time if at all. Strings were rusted and so were the frets. When I asked him about string size or type he said they had been on since he received it. What a shame.
DOGBOY Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 The truss rod is likely not broken but the nut is stripped seems to make sense. Contact the seller of course but I bet this is not that expensive a fix if it's just some threads that need to be recut, check out this video. https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0LEVyD07_1UG3cAGcdXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTMxNS1zBGdwcmlkA0RsRXBpUVozUzk2UlYuRHdLdExSb0EEbl9yc2x0AzAEbl9zdWdnAzQEb3JpZ2luA3NlYXJjaC55YWhvby5jb20EcG9zAzAEcHFzdHIDBHBxc3RybAMEcXN0cmwDMjkEcXVlcnkDcmVwbGFjaW5nIGEgdHJ1c3Mgcm9kIHN0ZXdtYWMEdF9zdG1wAzE0MjU5Mjk3OTI-?p=replacing+a+truss+rod+stewmac&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-315-s&fp=1
Shoman Posted March 9, 2015 Author Posted March 9, 2015 Not sure I understand. The nut works. I can righty tighty and put a back bow in the neck but it won't bend the other way. Straight is as lefty lucy as it goes. The nut is not stripped. I certainly hope you are right but.....
Gillnetter Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 If you can tighten the rod properly then the rod is not broken. There is just not enough tension from the strings to put relief in the neck. I would get a higher gauge set of strings and string it up to see if you can get some relief back in the neck.
Shoman Posted March 9, 2015 Author Posted March 9, 2015 Gillnetter, I'll try that. Makes sense and only costs a pack of strings.
Shoman Posted March 9, 2015 Author Posted March 9, 2015 I don't have any 11's but I do have a couple a pack o new 12's Nanoweb.Electric. That should provide quite a bit more tension. I know that the ones I took off were 10's Measured them several times and in different spots. They were old and actually rusted/corroded. Also the frets were very tarnished. I'll try these 12's.
Kuz Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 The truss rod will only effect from the 1st-9th to 10th frets. Try raising the action at the bridge.
Shoman Posted March 10, 2015 Author Posted March 10, 2015 OK, I changed to the Nanoweb 12's. String height is now 6 64s Low E and 4 64s High E. There is some slight increase in relief on frets 1 through 8. it's not measurable or at least it's not even .004. The E string are still sitting on the rest of the frets. Cuz, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm using a capo on the first fret and holding down the string at the 22 nd fet, raising the bridge will not be involved in the string to fret relief. The bridge would only raise the string height which is measured without fretting the strings. I have a good string height. The bridge height shouldn't effect the relief measurement when fretting the 22nd fret and the 1st fret. I'll leave this over night and see if the heavier strings add any relief to the neck. Might even up tune it a step. BTW, I contacted the seller and he's willing to let me return it. I just hate that I'm having this problem. I really liked this guitar. I don't think he even knew about it. The strings and frets didn't look like it had been played in a long time. You guys had to know this guy. He recommended this forum and said he had over 20 Heritage guitars. I believe the guy lives at a Seminary.
AP515 Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Maybe the truss rod is single action instead of double action?
Shoman Posted March 10, 2015 Author Posted March 10, 2015 Humm,,,,So wouldn't that be a relatively well known thing? Do Heritage 2005 H-150 guitars have single action or double action truss rods?
Shoman Posted March 10, 2015 Author Posted March 10, 2015 Ok, so it's going on 1:00 AM and I'm hitting the sack. I just checked and the relief at the 12th fret is now .08. There is not that much at the 17th fret but I think there is some there now. This is good. Not sure how long it will take to get some relief that will stay with the correct strings on the guitar and the guitar tuned properly. I'll let it sit over night and check again in the morning. I'm sure it will take a couple of days at least. If anyone has had this experience before let me know. A week maybe? WooHoo, I'm not happy but I'm less bummed.. OK so I'm slightly happy.
golferwave Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Here's my .02 worth. If you already have .008" relief at the 7th fret you're in good territory. As Kuz said, raise the bridge until you have .045" between the high E fret and string at the 12th fret, and .055" between the fret and string at the low E, This is done at regular pitch and with NO capo on the neck, I use automotive feeler gauges for measurement. This will give you a good starting point for your setup. To help pull the neck further back into position tune the strings higher to put more tension on the neck while leaving the truss rod nut loose. After a week or so you should be good. You can use a fine grade of steel wool to buff the tarnish off of the frets. Keep us posted on your progress.
Shoman Posted March 10, 2015 Author Posted March 10, 2015 Hey Golferwave. I have up tuned the #12's that are on the guitar for just that reason. I currenlty have more than .009 and not quite .010 at the 12th fret when capoed and fretted. I spoke with the Heritage people today and they say they can fix it for something like $75.00 if that even. Said they may not charge anything. I just need to pay shipping. The rods/necks are guaranteed to orig user but still they honor the warranty. I'm of course fine with that. Seeing if the gentleman I purchased from will pay shipping as I would rather not return it to him. I like the guitar other than this issue. I'll take some pics and put them up later. Already cleaned the frets although I don't use steel wool on my guitars. I know it's an accepted practice but prefer to use very very fine sandpaper. I once received a guitar with metal steel wool shaving in the pickups and don't want to risk that again. I really appreciate your input. I was thinking that I heard that it might take a week for something like this but couldn't quite remember. Your confirmation helps. I may loosen the strings in order to reset the string height closer to spec and that was also suggested by Heritage and Cuz here. Then put them back to well over pitch to keep the pressure on. Thanks.
golferwave Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Good luck Shoman - I'm sure all will turn out well, it's a beautiful axe, a keeper for sure!
Shoman Posted March 10, 2015 Author Posted March 10, 2015 Hey golferwave. I normally measure relief and string height in 64th inch. What unit of measure are you using mm or 100th of inch? I need to convert to know what I'm doing. Normally I set 4/64 at the low E and 5/64 at the high E at the 17th fret. This guitar seems to have the bridge set the wong way as far as hight. High E is set lower than Low E HIGH E. 17th fret LOW E 17th fret Worst case, I can send it back, but I'd like to be able to fix it myself. Just don't want to mess it up. haha hard to hold the guitar, ruler, camera and keep it level, but you get the idea.
Shoman Posted March 10, 2015 Author Posted March 10, 2015 If you look close, you can see the height adjustment on the bridge. The High E side of the bridge definitely needs to come up. Not sure whe the bridge pickup is so high. Doesn't look right to me but I've not had a Heritage before.
rockabilly69 Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Take this for what it's worth.... By what I have seen of the questions you posted, especially in regard to the pickup and bridge setup, I do not think you are qualified to be spinning a trussrod and doing your own setups. It is obvious by the position of the bridge you should have started there. Take it to a qualified tech, let him get it there, and if he can't, then return it to the seller. Perhaps the tech will help you understand what he did in the way of adjustment, and in the future you could try smaller adjustments on your own till you get up to speed. I do not mean to be rude, or condescending I am just trying to keep you from causing damage to the guitar that the seller would call you out on in the event of a return!
golferwave Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Shoman, relief is the measure of how much bow is in the neck. You measure this with a straight edge bar (thin edge) flat on the frets and you insert a feeler gauge between the straight edge and fret that is closest to midway between the nut and the point at which the neck is even with the body. For LP style guitars this is about the seventh fret. At the 7th fret I like to be able to slide a .007" or .008" feeler gauge between the fret and straight edge as a starting point for the relief. It's best to measure the string height at the twelfth fret by inserting a feeler gauge between the fret and string (high E and low E) and raise or lower the height wheel on the bridge until you get a slight drag on the feeler gauge between the string and fret at the desired height (see my recommendations in the previous post as a starting place, this is measured in thousandths, .045" etc.) If you don't have a straight edge or feeler gauges you'll need to buy those at a hardware or automotive store before you proceed. There are many videos on youtube to watch if you get stuck. You can use your ruler to measure the pickup height and make the height adjustment on those with the screws on each side of the pickup. Check youtube for recommendations on pickup height for the bridge and neck. Gibson has a chart as well that you can access. The proper amount of magnet pull from the pickup pole pieces onto the string is important for tone. Have a go at it and let us know how you're coming along.
Millennium Maestro Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 A lot of players like some neck relief, Heritage uses a single action truss rod.... I love a poker straight neck, to me I would have zero issues with the guitar. It is great to have the ability to add relief if required, a good luthier will heat the neck to soften the glue that attaches the fingerboard and manually induce relief so that once the neck cools it will have a relief position on a relaxed truss rod... Then will use the truss to pull the neck back to straight. Dont fret(Pun intended) I am sure your purchase will work out perfectly. IF YOU ARE NOT BUZZING IN THE FIRST 5 FRETS, the adjustment should be made in the bridge area! My opinion......
Kuz Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 Maybe you mistyped but the high E is always lower than the Low E. On all my guitars my specs are (measured at the 12th fret with no capo and no strings pressed) Low E @ 4/64ths and High E at 3.5/64ths. Like I said before you need to raise the bridge, but better yet based on some of the info you have set that contradicts normal set up procedure, take it to a good tech for a set up. Good luck, John
DetroitBlues Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 The bridge seems low, but you have the tailpiece up really high... While I can do some setup work, I always take a new acquisition to a luthier to get it setup right. Then I'll know if there really is a problem or not... Please don't be offended, I think it's a real time saver.
Blunote Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 One other point I'd make is that when i measure relief, I capo at the 1st fret, and manually fret where the neck joins the body at the 14th or 15th fret for an LP style guitar. Then I measure relief at the mid point of the neck between the capo and the 7th or 8th fret. I don't expect any bow along the portion of the fret board that is fastened directly to the top of the guitar. If you're still getting buzz then you need to adjust the action at the bridge like most everyone here says. Also, I normally take these measurements in 64ths rather than millimeters, and aim for 3.5 or 4/64ths action on the high e (string closest to the floor when I'm holding it) and 4-5/64ths on the low E measured at the 12th fret. I suppose it's possible the magnets in your pickups could be pulling the string lower at those higher frets, but I doubt that's happening here. And, like others are saying, I'd urge you to get a professional setup done with a guitar tech that will adjust the guitar to your preferences.
Shoman Posted March 11, 2015 Author Posted March 11, 2015 Wow, thanks eveyone for the information. Golfwave really appreciate all the information, what a great Forum this is. When I started I did put a straight edge on the neck and even with New 10S there was no "measureable" relief. I have feeler gages, straight edge and also a notched straight edge. Keep the info coming and thanks again. rockabilly, no problem we just come from different points of view. I always work on things whether I'm qualified or not. Wouldn't dream of returning a guitar if I had damaged it. Also the seller suggested I put on heavier strings and up tune it. I had already gotten permission to retun but told him I really didn't want to return. Asked if he wanted to pay some of the freight to Heritage if I send it in. He hasn't answerd yet but it has no bearing on me keeping the guitar. I'm going to keep it because all that I've learned here makes me think I can do the fix and if not I can send it to Heritage for relatively little expense. I'm keeping the guitar anyway. if it's mine I can work on it without premission whether I'm qualified or not. It's how I have fun. There is no one here in town to "take the guitar to". There is only one good luthier and, he's not taking any new business even though I"ve seen him before. I actually paid him for a 30 minute chat. See him by apt only. Not taking phone calls untill sometime Like I said earlier, I'll probably send it in to Heritage if I need to but for me it's fun to try to fix it. I'll do my best not to muck it up. Too much fun not to try. Also the bridge is a seperate issue from the relief. The bridge is an easy adjustment and the neck is more problematic. that is why I approached the neck first. if it were a simple setup and the neck had "some" relief then I would have started with the bridge. Really appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Kuz. "On all my guitars my specs are (measured at the 12th fret with no capo and no strings pressed) Low E @ 4/64ths and High E at 3.5/64ths." You're right that is how you measure string height. Thanks for the information that you use. That is what I was asking about. Appreciate it. Millenium, thanks for confirming that it is a single action truss rod.
Shoman Posted March 11, 2015 Author Posted March 11, 2015 The bridge seems low, but you have the tailpiece up really high... While I can do some setup work, I always take a new acquisition to a luthier to get it setup right. Then I'll know if there really is a problem or not... Please don't be offended, I think it's a real time saver. Not offended at all. Called the luthier that is local here and he's not taking calls or any new business untill after the middle of the month. Small town, not much here in the way of qualified luthiers. the music shop that does some setup work does not do anything having to do with frets..He will make a truss rod adjustment. He has about 8 guitars in stock. The other music shop here uses an out of town luthier. That's it no more music shops, some pawn shops. I take that back. There is another shop here called,My Favorite Guitar Shop. He will see you by apt only and wants to know what you're looking for before giving you an apt. Never been there. LOL I agree about the first trip to the luthier. Wish I had one to see. I left the one we have a message but he has not called back. Other people in town have told me I was lucky to have seen him at all as he's mostly retired. Has some health issue. He was a nice guy and I enjoyed talking with him. Quite helpful.
Shoman Posted March 11, 2015 Author Posted March 11, 2015 One other point I'd make is that when i measure relief, I capo at the 1st fret, and manually fret where the neck joins the body at the 14th or 15th fret for an LP style guitar. Then I measure relief at the mid point of the neck between the capo and the 7th or 8th fret. I don't expect any bow along the portion of the fret board that is fastened directly to the top of the guitar. If you're still getting buzz then you need to adjust the action at the bridge like most everyone here says. Also, I normally take these measurements in 64ths rather than millimeters, and aim for 3.5 or 4/64ths action on the high e (string closest to the floor when I'm holding it) and 4-5/64ths on the low E measured at the 12th fret. I suppose it's possible the magnets in your pickups could be pulling the string lower at those higher frets, but I doubt that's happening here. And, like others are saying, I'd urge you to get a professional setup done with a guitar tech that will adjust the guitar to your preferences. Thanks I appreciate that. Wish I had someone here to see. I will definately reset the bridge, probably tonight. I appreciate everyone straightening me out regarding the High E Low E string heights. The info I had learned from viewing YouTube channels like davesworldoffunstull and others are using a capo on the first fret and depressing the string at the last fret, measuring at the 17 or other depending on the make of guitar. I have not seen any printed info from Heritage on where they measure relief. I do appreciate your information thanks a bunch.
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