rockabilly69 Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 On a sideways glance at this thread, Kuz raised the point about ;glue transferring tone. I have heard guitar builders claim that glue gets in the way of tonal transferrance and that bolt on necks do it better. I don't know either way. But I am pretty sure that Heritage can make anything as good as Gibson. It's a bit of a moot point for me though, I'll never be able to buy an R9 etc. Hide glue pulls the joint together, and dries in a crystalline manner than transfers tone efficiently. If a bold on neck is so great at transferring vibration, how come a set neck style guitar generally has more sustain. And as for Heritage making ANYTHING as good as Gibson, I doubt it. Heritage's strong suit IMNSHO is their archtops, they are works of art, and I will own one, when I decide how far I want to go up the chain, but I feel in a Les Paul guitar, for vintage tone, Gibson is incorporating many of the elements of what made the vintage bursts so great, They are pretty much there, other than no brazillian fretboard, and sup par capacitors. But the lightweight Mahogany they are sourcing is awesome. They got a lot of the Historics coming in at way under 9 lbs! They are also using really good hardware, closely matched pots which have a great taper, custombucker pickups that sound great, braid harness, hide glue in all the joint for 2015 (even the maple to the mahogany back!!!). Could Heritage do it? Yes, I feel they can, but they seem to be stuck in the middle of the road and are happy with what they are building, but to compete with the modern historics, they really have to get a consistent set of pickups, good hardware, a good electronics, and you guys may think it's voodoo, but I think hide glue. Ask any of the old school builders at Martin whether hide glue makes a different in the joints and they will straighten you right out. The moment I picked up my 2014 goldtop, I knew I had a great guitar with killer vintage tone, and it sounds just like my friend's R9, and both of our Gibson LP's smoke both of my H150s. Maybe I have two bad H150's but I don't think so, I think they are pretty good examples, and I made them better, with the best replacement parts I could, but the Gibson's historic LP's I've been playing, especially 2013's and 2014's have a resonance that shakes my ribcage. If somebody has an H150 that does that let me know, and record a clip I would like to hear it, and that is no joke! A lot of people think it's marketing hype what Gibson is doing, and I agree they are using these improvements in their marketing, who wouldn't! I know I would! But the bottom line is they are getting the job done. And you know that's all I want, a guitar that does it for me. The price is high, but I bought my two historics used.
ryanjmatthewsII Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Hide glue pulls the joint together, and dries in a crystalline manner than transfers tone efficiently. If a bold on neck is so great at transferring vibration, how come a set neck style guitar generally has more sustain. And as for Heritage making ANYTHING as good as Gibson, I doubt it. Heritage's strong suit IMNSHO is their archtops, they are works of art, and I will own one, when I decide how far I want to go up the chain, but I feel in a Les Paul guitar, for vintage tone, Gibson is incorporating many of the elements of what made the vintage bursts so great, They are pretty much there, other than no brazillian fretboard, and sup par capacitors. But the lightweight Mahogany they are sourcing is awesome. They got a lot of the Historics coming in at way under 9 lbs! They are also using really good hardware, closely matched pots which have a great taper, custombucker pickups that sound great, braid harness, hide glue in all the joint for 2015 (even the maple to the mahogany back!!!). Could Heritage do it? Yes, I feel they can, but they seem to be stuck in the middle of the road and are happy with what they are building, but to compete with the modern historics, they really have to get a consistent set of pickups, good hardware, a good electronics, and you guys may think it's voodoo, but I think hide glue. Ask any of the old school builders at Martin whether hide glue makes a different in the joints and they will straighten you right out. The moment I picked up my 2014 goldtop, I knew I had a great guitar with killer vintage tone, and it sounds just like my friend's R9, and both of our Gibson LP's smoke both of my H150s. Maybe I have two bad H150's but I don't think so, I think they are pretty good examples, and I made them better, with the best replacement parts I could, but the Gibson's historic LP's I've been playing, especially 2013's and 2014's have a resonance that shakes my ribcage. If somebody has an H150 that does that let me know, and record a clip I would like to hear it, and that is no joke! A lot of people think it's marketing hype what Gibson is doing, and I agree they are using these improvements in their marketing, who wouldn't! I know I would! But the bottom line is they are getting the job done. And you know that's all I want, a guitar that does it for me. The price is high, but I bought my two historics used. You are clearly VERY passionate about Gibson guitars and the pursuit of that classic Gibson tone. "Tone" is an incredibly relative term. I'd venture to guess that 9.5 out 10 players wouldn't be able to consistently identify which guitar is which from a blind A/B audio test between an identically appointed H-150 and LP if they were recorded thru an identical signal path. To each his own but I'll personally never have another need for a Gibson LP with any of my H-150's around. I have 3 from the sale of 1 Gibson.
rockabilly69 Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 "Tone" is an incredibly relative term. I'd venture to guess that 9.5 out 10 players wouldn't be able to consistently identify which guitar is which from a blind A/B audio test between an identically appointed H-150 and LP if they were recorded thru an identical signal path. You own 3, 2013 or 2014 HIstorics? If you are talking USA regular production Les Pauls I could understand. As a matter of fact I bought my Heritages because I was not happy with Gibson USA Les Pauls and I thought the H150 was a great alternative, and I still believe that. But as for 9.5 out of 10 players not being able to them apart, that's not right, as I get together with many very good players regularly, and they have all picked my 1960 reissue over my H150s, and my R7 is better than my 1960. And not once have my Heritages been picked over my Historics, NOT ONCE! A few of those times people came over because they were interested in buying a new H150 and they heard I was getting into modding them, but not one person wound up buying an H150, just the opposite, they all have bought historics. As for recording, I have a full blown recording studio where in the summer I record myself, and some local people, that I think have talent and wouldn't normally have the resources to pay for good recording time. In that studio I have: Manley, Drawmer, Langevin, Focusrite, preamps, and classic Neumann and modern Blue Microphones, and I also a great project studio in my house and I LOVE recording and I have recorded my H150s and Les Pauls, and I can tell them apart easily. I typically plug straight into some properly maintained vintage amps and some modern boutique variants and that is where I hear the difference, but more importantly, when I play the LPs the differences is right there in my hands. Will there be times when I pick my Heritages over a Les Paul for a recording? Sure, sometimes there's a certain tone that just fits a track depending on what the other instruments are doing. Sometime a $200 Silvertone pawn shop guitar is the guitar I select. And my older H150 does have a really good recorded tone (listen to the clip below). But many times recording is not like live playing and the equipment I use will sometimes alter the sound of the guitar where I can compensate to make a guitar sound a certain way. Many times, like in the clip below, I didn't even use a guitar amp, I used a Digitech modeler into a Drawmer tube pre/compressor. But when I'm playing live, and I turn up the amps to where they are cooking, I really connect with the Historics. When I bought my Goldtop, I was very patient in finding a used guitar that I could resell immediately if I didn't like it, or if it just wasn't worth the extra money to get that small difference in tone I was looking for. I was hoping for the best, but expecting the worst. Just ask Dogboy who has offered to by my newer H150 and I told him he would have to wait, until I was sure the Les Pauls got the trick done. I could really use the money as I dropped $10,700 on three guitars in the last 4 weeks. I can't count the amount of times I've been let down by so called boutique instruments, amps, and recording equipment, so when I say I like something, it's not because I'm mirroring what people have said on guitar forums. I take the guitars out and I gig them. And then I generally join the forums because I already have tried the equipment, and it proved itself. My first Heritage H150 had a really nice neck pickup tone, but at 10.5 lbs I couldn't deal with the heavy weight. My next two Heritages, that I kept are better examples, one of them is a moaner, think "Brothers In Arms" by Dire Straights, or any LP tone cooked up by Mick Taylor in the heyday of the Stones. The other one is a biter, which gets the Tele like tones that Jimmy Page is known for. So I know Heritages can great LP tones, but I still prefer the LP's, and that comes from having them in my hands, and playing them through my amps. This is my heavily modified older Heritage H150 "the moaner" through the Digitech and Drawmer pre, solo is at 3:00 https://soundcloud.com/daniel-weldon-1/blink-of-an-eye This is my other modified newer Heritage H150 "the biter" through the same rig, the guitar is through the whole song... https://soundcloud.com/daniel-weldon-1/my-song-of-love-work-mix Here is my 1960 reissue straight into my Frenzel Super Deluxe Amp, one of my live performing amps, this is my favorite Les Paul type tone... https://soundcloud.com/daniel-weldon-1/waiting-on-you
ryanjmatthewsII Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 You own 3, 2013 or 2014 HIstorics? No, I do not and that's not what I was implying but frankly Im not going to be able to match the intensity here.....I get it, the newer Gibson Historics are like the most amazing guitars ever. Very cool, I'm happy for you that your happy with them. Your demo's are killer!
HANGAR18 Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Hide glue pulls the joint together, and dries in a crystalline manner than transfers tone efficiently. If a bold on neck is so great at transferring vibration, how come a set neck style guitar generally has more sustain. And as for Heritage making ANYTHING as good as Gibson, I doubt it. Heritage's strong suit IMNSHO is their archtops, they are works of art, and I will own one, when I decide how far I want to go up the chain, but I feel in a Les Paul guitar, for vintage tone, Gibson is incorporating many of the elements of what made the vintage bursts so great, They are pretty much there, other than no brazillian fretboard, and sup par capacitors. But the lightweight Mahogany they are sourcing is awesome. They got a lot of the Historics coming in at way under 9 lbs! They are also using really good hardware, closely matched pots which have a great taper, custombucker pickups that sound great, braid harness, hide glue in all the joint for 2015 (even the maple to the mahogany back!!!). Could Heritage do it? Yes, I feel they can, but they seem to be stuck in the middle of the road and are happy with what they are building, but to compete with the modern historics, they really have to get a consistent set of pickups, good hardware, a good electronics, and you guys may think it's voodoo, but I think hide glue. Ask any of the old school builders at Martin whether hide glue makes a different in the joints and they will straighten you right out. The moment I picked up my 2014 goldtop, I knew I had a great guitar with killer vintage tone, and it sounds just like my friend's R9, and both of our Gibson LP's smoke both of my H150s. Maybe I have two bad H150's but I don't think so, I think they are pretty good examples, and I made them better, with the best replacement parts I could, but the Gibson's historic LP's I've been playing, especially 2013's and 2014's have a resonance that shakes my ribcage. If somebody has an H150 that does that let me know, and record a clip I would like to hear it, and that is no joke! A lot of people think it's marketing hype what Gibson is doing, and I agree they are using these improvements in their marketing, who wouldn't! I know I would! But the bottom line is they are getting the job done. And you know that's all I want, a guitar that does it for me. The price is high, but I bought my two historics used. My 2014 Gibson LP Traditional was put together with Franklin Titebond 50 and it has the 120th Anniversary inlay at the 12th fret because it was a regular production line guitar and not a GC special spec'd guitar. I like it but I'm not sure if it has the 50's wiring or not. http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/2014/Les-Paul-Traditional.aspx
indravayu Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 I am a huge Gibson fanboy - have been since I was a kid in the 80's and got my first SG - the 2013-14 Historic LP's certainly are nice (if not way overpriced), but I think the difference between them and a recent, well made H150 are being exaggerated a bit here. I have been thinking about buying another R8, or possibly an R9, for a while now (just can't get the cash together, haha) and have been trying out a number of 2013-14's at my local GC and Sam Ash to see if I can find "the one"; honestly, beyond the neck carve, the difference in craftsmanship, no less tone between them and my 2014 H150 are simply not that drastic. If I put an ABR1 and Gibson CS humbuckers in my H150, I doubt I be able to tell much difference at all, beyond the neck carve (the H150 is a little slimmer with less shoulder).
rockabilly69 Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 For those who are wondering about my infatuation, just remember this, I really like my Heritages, and they both have unique voices that any good guitarist could build a career around. I just prefer the reissues for the vintage tone I'm personally changing. So I think I'm done commenting on this subject as what I chase may different than what others chase.
RhoadsScholar Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Thanks rockabilly for taking the time to post subtle but noticeable (to me) differences in the tone quest for the elusive les paul tone. This post has been very informative and educational. I am a heritage fanboy and the 2 157s I have hold their own for the rock stuff I do however, I have only compared them to classics, standards, non-custom shop customs. I briefly played yooper's R7 at Steiners pre HOC event last year and was impressed. I will have to take some of the custom shop LPs for a spin next time I visit the guitar stores.
Gitfiddler Posted April 20, 2015 Posted April 20, 2015 One Man's Perspective: Many of my friends over at the LP Forum are big time Gibson fan boys...and they all seem to tear into their brand new or used expensive Historics to make them better. Personally, if I spend $4k - $6k for a new guitar, it better be right!! And yes, I've spent WAY too much for certain gitfiddles (Gibson Custom Shop, Roger Giffin, PRS, etc.), so I'm not blowing smoke up your truss rod cavity. Maybe ultimate tone-seeking is just the nature of the beast with some players, but when is a guitar good enough...right from the factory? I have done little or nothing to most of my guitars after buying them. Maybe I'll do a pickup swap here or there, but even that is after doing everything possible to the originals to make them sound the way I like them to sound for the kind of music I like to play. Maybe I simply don't have the kind of hearing sophistication of others, but unless a guitar has serious playability issues or is an overall sonic dud, I can usually pull some good to great tones out of it. And all due respect to other posters, I really can't tell the difference in hide glue to Elmers glue when it comes to tone. As long as the neck is attached properly and has no flex or warp, I'm a happy camper. YMMV. These are great topics for us to toss about here on a guitar forum. But there is never going to be consensus. We are all too different for that. Plus, I always learn stuff during the process. And man, I can listen to Rockabilly's sound clips all day long! What a talent! I think folks like him and several others on this forum could make one of those oil can guitars sound amazing. I'm off the soap box and ready to grab my 157 and make a joyful noise here in the neighborhood.
JeffB Posted April 20, 2015 Posted April 20, 2015 My H150 sounds nothing like any of the R's I have played. I have played lots. My H150 is darker smoother and more powerful sounding. Im not a traditional LP sort of player. Im not wanting to or trying to get any classic or iconic sound. I have played a few of the original LPs. Some have been great, some a bit "meh". I think Gibson today is nailing both of those vibes in the Re Issues. I would not buy an Re issue with out playing it first. They are not all equal. Just like any other guitar type.
HANGAR18 Posted April 20, 2015 Posted April 20, 2015 At least I'm glad that Gibson has finally admitted publicly that they have a very elaborate wood grading system with at least 5 different quality levels. (I actually figured that out on my own a while back.) This is what allows them to make so many different versions of the Les Paul guitar at so many different price points. My Les Paul was nearly $3000.00 and I'm very happy with it. I think there would only be about one higher step I could have gone with regard to the grade of materials and that whole hide glue thing but I didn't want to spend over $5000.00 on a Les Paul. I guess that's the very reason why they have a grading system and Les Pauls at different prices.
DetroitBlues Posted April 20, 2015 Posted April 20, 2015 Well since we are discussing Gibsons, I bought this used 1996 from Brent last November. Its not a Custom Shop, its not an Historic, its not any kind of reissue. Its just a nice feeling guitar that has some great tones in it. Yes I changed the pickups, but that's because they were way too hot for my tastes. But the "specs" on this one were supposed to be modeled after a 1959, but really that is just the tuners and the neck profile. Nothing else is close to a 59 burst. But its still a great guitar, depsite its checking, discolored binding, and fretsprouts peeking through the neck binding...
Kuz Posted April 20, 2015 Posted April 20, 2015 I had two LP "60s Classics" from around '93-'94 and while they were good guitars (and now supposedly semi-colletable/desirable) they both had the worse fret-job on any guitar I have ever owned. The frets were not buffed and like razor-blades. I changed the pickups then played them and kept them for years but had no problem getting rid of them. My 150s are clearly superior to those guitars in playability & tone.
pressure Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 I’m going to start off by saying the “Les Paul” tone is not important to me and hasn’t been for at least 50 years. When I was younger, much, much younger I played quite a few Les Pauls because they were inexpensive used guitars and my guitar heros (Freddie King and Mike Bloomfield) played them. But the more Les Pauls I played the less I liked them. For one thing they were heavy and always went out of tune. Some sounded good and some didn’t. Some played well and some were awful. I finally wound up with an SG Standard, 2 PAFs and the Sideways Vibrato. I took the Vibrato off and replaced it with a trapeze tail-piece and replaced the Kluson tuners with Grover Imperials, finally a great sounding guitar that would stay in tune. Back then if you wanted a guitar set up properly you did it yourself because there were no “Guitar Techs”, no replacement pickups and your strings were La Bellas or Black Diamonds… then came Ernie Ball Slinkys… Hallelujah! Those Ernie Ball strings were a real game changer. Back to the “Les Paul” tone thing. Every body raved about Jimmy Pages great Les Paul tone through Marshall stacks but then we found out that tone came from a Tele thru a small Supro amp… whoops. Or how about the great tone Jeff Beck got from his Les Paul… whoops his recordings with the Yardbirds were with a Fender Esquire. And to top it all off all these great guitar sounds we are so familiar with were EQed for AM Radio and 45 rpm records. There are great sounds that come out of Les Pauls and a lot of those are from Joe Bonamassa who has the pick of the best and a Guitar Tech to tweet things to perfection or Sean Costello, who I prefer, but he played a Les Paul with p90s. Of the 9,557 or so Les Pauls made by Gibson in the 50s and the 20,000 that remain I’m sure a lot of them sound really good and with the knowledge we now have they can be made to stay in-tune, probably. It may sound like I’m bashing Les Pauls but thats not my intention. My intention is good guitar tone is good guitar tone no matter what it comes from. Just because the Fender Telecaster and Stratocaster or the Gibson Les Paul were the first electric guitar sounds to thrill us it doesn’t mean other guitars don’t have good tone, it just isn’t that tone. If PRS, Hamer, Collings, Terry McInturff or CP Thorton were firstest then their tone might be the sounds we desire. I know good guitars when I play them and Heritage Guitars are Fab. Flame suit is on. © 2015 The Artist Formerly Known as Pressure.
indravayu Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 Every body raved about Jimmy Pages great Les Paul tone through Marshall stacks but then we found out that tone came from a Tele thru a small Supro amp… whoops. I hear what you're saying, but it was only the first LZ album that was primarily a Tele through a Supro - by the second album Jimmy was already using a Les Paul through a Marshall (not exclusively, of course - he is well known for employing an army of different amps and guitars in the studio).
uniqlo Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 no tone is inherently better than another they can only be closer to or farther away from the tone you are seeking gibson has the resources to make historics sound like 59s by which i mean they can record and measure natural resonant frequency the bell like sound you get from striking the guitar thats important it is the range that is reinforced heritage doesnt care and why should they the reissue business is a specific thing and they arent in it the fact is that they are mostly in business to do hollow and semi hollow the solidbody guitars dont represent their best effort just like prs hollowbodies arent great so downvote me i guess
pressure Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 My take is that Gibsons are trying to capture the glory of the 50s, not a bad marketing idea, but Heritage are making the best "Heritage" guitars they can. Heritage is not in the reissue business because they don't need to reissue anything. Heritage guitars being made today are Fab, they are not old Gibsons.
DavesNotHere Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 My take is that Gibsons are trying to capture the glory of the 50s, not a bad marketing idea, but Heritage are making the best "Heritage" guitars they can. Heritage is not in the reissue business because they don't need to reissue anything. Heritage guitars being made today are Fab, they are not old Gibsons.Amen Brother
FredZepp Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 the fact is that they are mostly in business to do hollow and semi hollow the solidbody guitars dont represent their best effort It's very possible that there is more appreciation and affinity for Heritage solidbodies on this forum than at any place on the entire internet..... certainly one of the top sites for the love of Heritage solidbodies. Many feel a bond with the instruments and the company and may disagree with your assumption. But then again ... you probably already knew that. I love their solidbodies.... and the semis and archtops.. but then again, this is the Heritage Owners Club.. so not that is not unexpected.
schundog Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 It's very possible that there is more appreciation and affinity for Heritage solidbodies on this forum than at any place on the entire internet..... certainly one of the top sites for the love of Heritage solidbodies. Many feel a bond with the instruments and the company and may disagree with your assumption. But then again ... you probably already knew that. I love their solidbodies.... and the semis and archtops.. but then again, this is the Heritage Owners Club.. so not that is not unexpected. I Swear, Fred, you should run for Public Office.... Oh, wait, you are too honest and nice for that. Still, your ability to tell this Troll to go ^&$*# Himself in such an diplomatic fashion is incredible!! I have enormous respect for Daniel, Rockabilly, his great ear, his tasteful playing, and his passion for tone. He makes his living as a musician, and does it quite well, apparently. Having said that, and please forgive me Daniel, but I simply don't believe all the hype about hide glue, truss rod straws, and, to a lesser extent, short tenons, having a sizable effect on tone, especially in the context of a full band. Furthermore, spending 3X to 4X more to get a marginal difference for a basement hack player like me would never make sense. For a guy like Daniel, who makes his living doing it, has a Pro Studio, and a reputation to uphold, I get it. Not for me. I love the feel, look, tone, and, yeah, story, of my Heritages. I still own ONE Gibson; The ES-335 Memphis Reissue that I bought when I turned 40, and it's excellent. I had to search high and low to find one that wasn't jacked up cosmetically or structurally. I bought my 2 535s sight unseen, and I couldn't be more pleased with them. Having had the trouble finding the right Gibson, I would have never bought one sight unseen. No offense meant to anyone, other than the Troll.
Vanschoyck Posted April 23, 2015 Author Posted April 23, 2015 heritage doesnt care and why should they the reissue business is a specific thing and they arent in it I respect your opinions and I have a question - in your first post you said there were aspects of the guitar build that Marv didn't care about, and more recently (the above quote) you say something similar. Do you know that? (That they don't care, that is.)
DetroitBlues Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 I Swear, Fred, you should run for Public Office.... Oh, wait, you are too honest and nice for that. Still, your ability to tell this Troll to go ^&$*# Himself in such an diplomatic fashion is incredible!! I have enormous respect for Daniel, Rockabilly, his great ear, his tasteful playing, and his passion for tone. He makes his living as a musician, and does it quite well, apparently. Having said that, and please forgive me Daniel, but I simply don't believe all the hype about hide glue, truss rod straws, and, to a lesser extent, short tenons, having a sizable effect on tone, especially in the context of a full band. Furthermore, spending 3X to 4X more to get a marginal difference for a basement hack player like me would never make sense. For a guy like Daniel, who makes his living doing it, has a Pro Studio, and a reputation to uphold, I get it. Not for me. I love the feel, look, tone, and, yeah, story, of my Heritages. I still own ONE Gibson; The ES-335 Memphis Reissue that I bought when I turned 40, and it's excellent. I had to search high and low to find one that wasn't jacked up cosmetically or structurally. I bought my 2 535s sight unseen, and I couldn't be more pleased with them. Having had the trouble finding the right Gibson, I would have never bought one sight unseen. No offense meant to anyone, other than the Troll. Amen... As to the whole "Troll" comment, I don't want to sling around such a harsh term to anyone. Everyone has an opinion, some are more liked than others. I personally have no idea who this new comer is, but I do say I suspect this person maybe another former member sneaking back in the fold. No idea who though. But then again, I maybe wrong and this person just hasn't posted enough for us to understand where he/she is coming from.
HANGAR18 Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Stinks like Jack Baruth in here. You mean sniffngrowl?
Kuz Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Everyone should be able to give their opinion no matter how unpopular it is..... but the poster has to realize we are somewhat biased (or completely biased), this is a HERITAGE owners site!!! And unpopular opinions can be and should be given, with full respect. But that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to comment back. As long as things remain civil (and I think Daniel has does an excellent job of giving counter opinions (with facts & his experience) without arguing) we can learn from different opinions. I DON'T think (just my humble opinion) we should speculate on other persons motives or state names of previous banded members..... you know what they say about assuming!!!!
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