JeffB Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 Lee Ritenour uses/used the Dual Rec. He is well known for his crushing metal sound, not. The Dual Rec is so much more than what people give it credit for. Probably fair to say its one of the most misunderstood amps Ive ever come across. It does metal and carved out a niche there in the 90's but that isnt all it is buy a long shot.
HANGAR18 Posted July 3, 2015 Author Posted July 3, 2015 I'd say decide on what tube sound you want first, 6l6 or El, then start looking. Is it safe to say that the 6L6's are a American (bright/thin) sounding in nature while the EL34's are more British (buttery/fat) sounding? I very recently bought a very expensive 100 watt amp which I just discovered has 6L6's in it when I was doing an A/B test between both of my half stacks. They both sounded great but I likes the sound of the amp which I already had better. That one has a high quality set of Mullard EL34's in it. The new amp had a thiner, well refined razor sharp sound on the gain channel while the old amp had a thicker fuller creamy over-the-top sound on the gain channel. I'm wondering if the only difference is the tubes? I've thought about moving the tubes from one amp to the other to see if the tone I like follows the move. In other news, the " x rectifier" amps are at the back of the pack. The local Mesa dealer/store owner demonstrated a couple of amps and knows I'm a metal guy. He set these sliders in what he called a Hetfield sweep and then started out chugin' out some classic Metallica riffs. (A light goes on above my head, cartoon style.) I'm thinking "make sure you get an amp with those little sliders". Right now some unknown version of the Mark 5 or one of those Express models is closer to the consideration list for my next amp. That Stiletto on Craigslist is still a possibility but both buyer and seller are dragging our feet about making a trade. The Stiletto seems to to be British heavy metal flavored which may be right up my alley since I seem to like a British amp flavor. (Marshall/Vox)
gpuma Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 Many boogies can accept either 6L6 or EL84 However if you have a preference for the British voicing you might want to check the Transatlantic / royal Atlantic series.
HANGAR18 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Posted July 4, 2015 NEW AMP DAY! Traded the half stack for the Stiletto. Too late tonight to plug it in and try it but it is in mint condition, completely stock with almost no hours on it and even then only ever played in a church during services. I'm pretty confident that I'll like it and I will definitely draw upon all the great learning in this thread for deciding what my next Mesa will be.
Vanschoyck Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 Certainly a nice looking amp. I think you're going to like it.
davesultra Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 Sweet looking amp, love the color combo. I'll bet it weighs a ton!
HANGAR18 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Posted July 4, 2015 I haven't even plugged in the amp yet and I just discovered something I feel is pretty incredible by reading the manual. (Yes, I am one of those "read the damn manual" types. aka RTFM) I don't know if Mesa puts this information at the end of all of their manuals or not but near the end of this manual I just downloaded for this amp, (the Stiletto Ace combo amp pictured above) there is an article by by Randall Smith which goes into technical detail on the subject of amp BIAS adjustments and explains why Mesa Boogie amps do not have a bias adjustment dial anywhere. I find the article to be fascinating, if not jaw dropping. Certainly a "must read" in my humble opinion and worth mentioning in this thread.
Yooper Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 For some reason the bias section of the manual just made me thirsty for some Harps and Jameson.
HANGAR18 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Posted July 4, 2015 For some reason the bias section of the manual just made me thirsty for some Harps and Jameson. I know what you mean. I have both kinds of whiskey at home. (Bushmills and Jameson)
JeffB Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 I haven't even plugged in the amp yet and I just discovered something I feel is pretty incredible by reading the manual. (Yes, I am one of those "read the damn manual" types. aka RTFM) I don't know if Mesa puts this information at the end of all of their manuals or not but near the end of this manual I just downloaded for this amp, (the Stiletto Ace combo amp pictured above) there is an article by by Randall Smith which goes into technical detail on the subject of amp BIAS adjustments and explains why Mesa Boogie amps do not have a bias adjustment dial anywhere. I find the article to be fascinating, if not jaw dropping. Certainly a "must read" in my humble opinion and worth mentioning in this thread. The bias article is interesting, but.... I have converted a few mesa's from fixed bias to adjustable bias. My opinion, take it for what its worth, zilch, is that the Stiletto responds very well to bias adjustment. Out of all the mesa's I have converted to adjustable bias the Stiletto and Roadking(the EL34 part of it) are the ones that really shine from running a bit hotter than their fixed very cold bias. Also a few Dual Recs running EL34's responded well to adjustable bias. My Lonestar had an adjustable bias and in direct comparison to a fixed bias LS running through the same cab it was smoother, fatter and generally felt better. Not just to my ears but to any one who had experience with LS's and the guy that bought it off me. He wasnt sold on the Lone Star until I let him use mine. He bought it the next day. The adjustable bias is actually one of the best mods to do to any mesa. They run them so cold, my LS was 22 from memory as opposed to my Fender also with fixed bias which runs still cold but closer to 36( Im kinda certain) I think I ended up finding a happy place around 36 with the mesa. The cold bias is where a lot of the distortion comes from in a mesa. Its a kind of gritty sound that sits in the sound and cant be dialed out at any setting on the gain dial or by cranking the out put volume and pulling back on the channel volume. Some people like it, I dont. Any new mesa I get gets an adjustable bias kit in it before I take it home. Not really trying to sell my opinion or say its a definitive thing but I have been selling mesa for a decade and although I cant recommend the adjustable bias to a new buyer because of warranty issues most people who convert to adjustable bias are very satisfied and happy with the end result and, screw the warranty. Not recommending that btw. Im sure Randall knows more about amps than I do and has his reasons for cold bias but I wouldnt have sold so many mesa's if there wasnt a second hand one with a bias kit sitting around for customers to do a/b tests with and get an idea of the potential. Hard to not sound mouthy and know it all when you are just a guitar player offering an opinion that differs from Randall Smiths vast knowledge and reputation as an amp designer and builder.
HANGAR18 Posted July 6, 2015 Author Posted July 6, 2015 The bias article is interesting, but.... I have converted a few mesa's from fixed bias to adjustable bias. My opinion, take it for what its worth, zilch, is that the Stiletto responds very well to bias adjustment. Out of all the mesa's I have converted to adjustable bias the Stiletto and Roadking(the EL34 part of it) are the ones that really shine from running a bit hotter than their fixed very cold bias. Also a few Dual Recs running EL34's responded well to adjustable bias. My Lonestar had an adjustable bias and in direct comparison to a fixed bias LS running through the same cab it was smoother, fatter and generally felt better. Not just to my ears but to any one who had experience with LS's and the guy that bought it off me. He wasnt sold on the Lone Star until I let him use mine. He bought it the next day. The adjustable bias is actually one of the best mods to do to any mesa. They run them so cold, my LS was 22 from memory as opposed to my Fender also with fixed bias which runs still cold but closer to 36( Im kinda certain) I think I ended up finding a happy place around 36 with the mesa. The cold bias is where a lot of the distortion comes from in a mesa. Its a kind of gritty sound that sits in the sound and cant be dialed out at any setting on the gain dial or by cranking the out put volume and pulling back on the channel volume. Some people like it, I dont. Any new mesa I get gets an adjustable bias kit in it before I take it home. Not really trying to sell my opinion or say its a definitive thing but I have been selling mesa for a decade and although I cant recommend the adjustable bias to a new buyer because of warranty issues most people who convert to adjustable bias are very satisfied and happy with the end result and, screw the warranty. Not recommending that btw. Im sure Randall knows more about amps than I do and has his reasons for cold bias but I wouldnt have sold so many mesa's if there wasnt a second hand one with a bias kit sitting around for customers to do a/b tests with and get an idea of the potential. Hard to not sound mouthy and know it all when you are just a guitar player offering an opinion that differs from Randall Smiths vast knowledge and reputation as an amp designer and builder. What is involved with a bias kit? Is it something one can buy in the store? Do you have to get into the amp and do a bunch of soldering? Right now I'm still trying to learn how to dial things in. The controls are strange to me at this point. One problem I am having is trying to get it to sound as awesome as the gain channel on the Carvin V3 that I just traded away. Maybe it isn't designed to do that. Still in the middle of the learning curve. It has a lot of neat tones, just not the ones that I am accustomed to, or ones that instantly jump out at me as tones I can personally use. I'll keep messing with it. I am glad it takes up less space and in the long run I may wind up deciding that I would prefer a different Mesa but for now I'm still getting to know this amp.
tbonesullivan Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 I wouldn't call 6L6GC's "bright and thin", they are actually very round sounding, in my opinion. They also have more bottom OOOMPH than EL34 tubes, in general. But, it's the preamp design as well as the power amp and speakers that will also factor into it. It's really not easy to generalize like that. Usually people Equate the 6L6 sound with the Fender type of amp, and the EL34 with the Marshall type of amp. Which of course is funny because the first Marshalls were pretty much Fender clones. I have both 6L6 and EL34 amps, as well as some EL84 amps, and they all sound good to my ears. Though, I don't really own any "boutique" level amps, so I may not have the most discriminating taste in amps.
JeffB Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 What is involved with a bias kit? Is it something one can buy in the store? Do you have to get into the amp and do a bunch of soldering? Right now I'm still trying to learn how to dial things in. The controls are strange to me at this point. One problem I am having is trying to get it to sound as awesome as the gain channel on the Carvin V3 that I just traded away. Maybe it isn't designed to do that. Still in the middle of the learning curve. It has a lot of neat tones, just not the ones that I am accustomed to, or ones that instantly jump out at me as tones I can personally use. I'll keep messing with it. I am glad it takes up less space and in the long run I may wind up deciding that I would prefer a different Mesa but for now I'm still getting to know this amp. Dont go straight for a bias kit.....even though thats what I kinda suggested in my post Get a good sound that you like first. Bias adjustment will enhance that sound a lot. The stiletto is an amp that people like or dont get at all. I love the cleans and plexi'ish crunch that they have. Not so fond of the high gain sounds in them. Its interesting to me that Andy Timmons uses his Stiletto's for big cleans and light crunch and the Lone Star for saturated lead sounds. Another use for the Stiletto is to use it in conjunction with a Dual Rec. The two together cover so much sonic territory and each fill in gaps the other lacks. Upper mids and tightness of the stiletto and lower mids and looseness of the Dual Rec I think the stiletto is a class amp and every time I hear complaints about it or people having a problem getting it to sound good is because there expectations of the amp are different to what the amp was actually designed to do. I think Andy Timmons use of it is a good example of what kind of amp it is or where it really shines, a somewhat British voiced blues classic rock amp. It can do that 80's metal thing quite well also. Check out his demo's for an example of what this amp can do. As far as converting it to adjustable bias from fixed bias, there used to be a kit you could buy online, I dont know if there is any more. I got an amp tech to show me how to do the mod and convert them. Its not complex to do, I can do it . But I generally send people to a real tech to have it done. What correct bias does is open the amp up, I dont care what Randall says, his cold bias amps are quite stiff, grainy. Its a feel and sound you cant actually dial out and no tube swap will take care of. It is all because of the cold bias. Its not just cold, its very cold. But I have to say, everything I have said is opinion. So many people use amps differently to how I would and sound great or just seem to make things happen despite the gear they are using. I know a guy in a modern metal band that has been using the Stiletto Deuce II to great effect and a country picker that uses the same amp and sounds amazing. Incidentally, they both converted to adjustable bias after about a year and have been well sorted ever since. btw, the country picker was always a Fender Twin user. I think that says a lot about the clean channel on the stiletto.
JeffB Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 I wouldn't call 6L6GC's "bright and thin", they are actually very round sounding, in my opinion. They also have more bottom OOOMPH than EL34 tubes, in general. But, it's the preamp design as well as the power amp and speakers that will also factor into it. It's really not easy to generalize like that. Usually people Equate the 6L6 sound with the Fender type of amp, and the EL34 with the Marshall type of amp. Which of course is funny because the first Marshalls were pretty much Fender clones. I have both 6L6 and EL34 amps, as well as some EL84 amps, and they all sound good to my ears. Though, I don't really own any "boutique" level amps, so I may not have the most discriminating taste in amps. Totally agree, if I want a big fat warm sounding amp, its 6L6's that I generally have in mind. Never been sure how much the tone stack has to do with it though. More often I think its the tone stack. Ive heard my mesa's with 6L6s and EL34's and my concert II with 6L6s and another converted to EL34's, every time the 6l6s are bigger and warmer sounding. But generally EL34 amps have a different tone stack and purpose to amps with 6L6's. Not all the time but often.
HANGAR18 Posted July 6, 2015 Author Posted July 6, 2015 Dont go straight for a bias kit.....even though thats what I kinda suggested in my post Get a good sound that you like first. Bias adjustment will enhance that sound a lot. The stiletto is an amp that people like or dont get at all. I love the cleans and plexi'ish crunch that they have. Not so fond of the high gain sounds in them. Its interesting to me that Andy Timmons uses his Stiletto's for big cleans and light crunch and the Lone Star for saturated lead sounds. Another use for the Stiletto is to use it in conjunction with a Dual Rec. The two together cover so much sonic territory and each fill in gaps the other lacks. Upper mids and tightness of the stiletto and lower mids and looseness of the Dual Rec I think the stiletto is a class amp and every time I hear complaints about it or people having a problem getting it to sound good is because there expectations of the amp are different to what the amp was actually designed to do. I think Andy Timmons use of it is a good example of what kind of amp it is or where it really shines, a somewhat British voiced blues classic rock amp. It can do that 80's metal thing quite well also. Check out his demo's for an example of what this amp can do. As far as converting it to adjustable bias from fixed bias, there used to be a kit you could buy online, I dont know if there is any more. I got an amp tech to show me how to do the mod and convert them. Its not complex to do, I can do it . But I generally send people to a real tech to have it done. What correct bias does is open the amp up, I dont care what Randall says, his cold bias amps are quite stiff, grainy. Its a feel and sound you cant actually dial out and no tube swap will take care of. It is all because of the cold bias. Its not just cold, its very cold. But I have to say, everything I have said is opinion. So many people use amps differently to how I would and sound great or just seem to make things happen despite the gear they are using. I know a guy in a modern metal band that has been using the Stiletto Deuce II to great effect and a country picker that uses the same amp and sounds amazing. Incidentally, they both converted to adjustable bias after about a year and have been well sorted ever since. btw, the country picker was always a Fender Twin user. I think that says a lot about the clean channel on the stiletto. I did like the tone demos online for the Lonestar as well as for the Stiletto ace. But having two amps defeats the goal of having amps take up less space and having less crap to haul if I ever need to go anywhere. My unscientific method for tone comparisons is to play the main riffs from Living After Midnight and Jailbreak (Thin Lizzy) through each amp in the gain channel and see how good I can get it to sound. That sort of gives me a baseline comparison. At any rate, I'll give it some time. One thing I don't like is not being able to read the dials unless I get down on my knees and stick my face and a flashlight right in front of the dials. I may need to get another amp stand for it.
JeffB Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 I did like the tone demos online for the Lonestar as well as for the Stiletto ace. But having two amps defeats the goal of having amps take up less space and having less crap to haul if I ever need to go anywhere. My unscientific method for tone comparisons is to play the main riffs from Living After Midnight and Jailbreak (Thin Lizzy) through each amp in the gain channel and see how good I can get it to sound. That sort of gives me a baseline comparison. At any rate, I'll give it some time. One thing I don't like is not being able to read the dials unless I get down on my knees and stick my face and a flashlight right in front of the dials. I may need to get another amp stand for it. I would think that the stiletto should do that sound quite well. Classic Marshall guitar sounds. I read some where, either in a guitar mag in the 80's or on the web recently when I was trying to find out about the Hamer Phantom, that they, Judas Priest, used the low input on their NMV Marshalls and used a range master. Maybe dont worry about what number the dials end up at. I was always surprised the next day when I checked what settings I had that were so good the night before. If I relied on visual cues I would never have thought to set the dials where I did. The Nomad I had had black knobs on a black panel, you just turned them til they sounded good.
HANGAR18 Posted July 6, 2015 Author Posted July 6, 2015 I would think that the stiletto should do that sound quite well. Classic Marshall guitar sounds. I read some where, either in a guitar mag in the 80's or on the web recently when I was trying to find out about the Hamer Phantom, that they, Judas Priest, used the low input on their NMV Marshalls and used a range master. Maybe dont worry about what number the dials end up at. I was always surprised the next day when I checked what settings I had that were so good the night before. If I relied on visual cues I would never have thought to set the dials where I did. The Nomad I had had black knobs on a black panel, you just turned them til they sounded good. I don't think I'm trying to reproduce anyone's tone. What I think I'm trying to do is play these classic songs and make them sound BETTER than the tone that the original artists came up with.
212Mavguy Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 I would think that the stiletto should do that sound quite well. Classic Marshall guitar sounds. I read some where, either in a guitar mag in the 80's or on the web recently when I was trying to find out about the Hamer Phantom, that they, Judas Priest, used the low input on their NMV Marshalls and used a range master. Maybe dont worry about what number the dials end up at. I was always surprised the next day when I checked what settings I had that were so good the night before. If I relied on visual cues I would never have thought to set the dials where I did. The Nomad I had had black knobs on a black panel, you just turned them til they sounded good. This is huge in a good way. Ever try to play through and adjust an amp in the dark with the only light coming from the pilot bulb? Sometimes we impose our opinions on what our eyes want to see on those knob settings rather than what our ears want to hear! Try it at least one time.
HANGAR18 Posted July 6, 2015 Author Posted July 6, 2015 This is huge in a good way. Ever try to play through and adjust an amp in the dark with the only light coming from the pilot bulb? Sometimes we impose our opinions on what our eyes want to see on those knob settings rather than what our ears want to hear! Try it at least one time. I can certainly do that but right now I can't tell what knobs modify the sound without reading the dials. All the knobs are in different places. And what the heck is an OUTPUT knob anyway? It already has volume and master volume knobs.
Gitfiddler Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 I can certainly do that but right now I can't tell what knobs modify the sound without reading the dials. All the knobs are in different places. And what the heck is an OUTPUT knob anyway? It already has volume and master volume knobs. Mesa Boogie Support should have the answers to your questions. http://www.mesaboogie.com/support/user-manuals.html?page=3
HANGAR18 Posted July 6, 2015 Author Posted July 6, 2015 I would think that the stiletto should do that sound quite well. Classic Marshall guitar sounds. I read some where, either in a guitar mag in the 80's or on the web recently when I was trying to find out about the Hamer Phantom, that they, Judas Priest, used the low input on their NMV Marshalls and used a range master. Maybe dont worry about what number the dials end up at. I was always surprised the next day when I checked what settings I had that were so good the night before. If I relied on visual cues I would never have thought to set the dials where I did. The Nomad I had had black knobs on a black panel, you just turned them til they sounded good. Have you ever used that SPONGY power switch? I think I'll give that a try next. I noticed in one of the tone demos I saw, the guy was using the power switch in that position.
JeffB Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 When you get around to it put the loop into hard bypass, flick over to spongy and use tube rectifier. You lose the output and solo functions, the channel vol becomes the overall volume control. Dropping into spongy reduces output by about 13%......I think. The earlier clipping and the slight compression from the tube rec plus the bypassing of the fx loop circuit makes the amp more.....responsive or alive or something You do lose some of the control of volume and gain to a slight extent and you cant use the loop, obviously. Are you having fun with it or is it frustrating you?
HANGAR18 Posted July 6, 2015 Author Posted July 6, 2015 Kinda frustrating. But today I did get a tone I sorta liked. Yea, but I actually had to use the TONE KNOB on my guitar in addition to the spongy stuff! Oh the humanity! lol After more reading of the manual, it seems like Mesa likes to start everything around the 12:00 mark and then make adjustments from there. Not always but that is where I started today and things went better. Still, I did get a brief out of control squeal when I went to the gain channel and I don't know why. Still getting to know the amp. They really seem to take that vintage British tone seriously with this one as I can't seem to get anything other than 5 different versions of that from this amp. hahaha
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