Roller Bridge VS TonePros

[Rod]

Gillnetter's thread about replacing the roller bridge with a TonePros inspires this thread. First, a confession. I don't think there's any way in the world I could hear a difference between a roller bridge and a TonePros. That's a difficult confession for even a hack guitar player like me to make. I want to be cool like everybody else and be able to hear all these obvious/subtle differences. Increased sustain from putting a capo on the headstock. Ceramic vs. PIO caps (I have 'em because I want to be cool that way). Nitro vs. poly. I could go on and on. Y'all know the list as well as I do. I'm lucky to be able to tell a Telecaster from a Les Paul. So, honestly, in a blindfold test could you tell? I'm certain I cannot. I might even claim I can, sometimes, because I want to be cool like that. I wish I could. I spend a lot of time and money chasing something that to me is still a mystery or an illusion. It's fun to seek it, even if I have to pretend to understand. Maybe someday I'll get it. I'm sure I'll change out a roller bridge to a TonePros because Gillnetter and others say it made such a difference. Maybe that'll be the one that'll do it for me. I listen to sound samples of various pickups. I've got Klipsch computer speakers and Klipsch ear buds. Sometimes I think I can detect some subtle difference. Usually not, but I'd hate to admit it (In truth I really wouldn't hate to admit it. I'm not trying to impress anybody).

 

Also to that point, with almost any band I hear live it's so loud and the PA is so overdriven that the bass player might as well be playing one note all night. If there's an acoustic guitar I'm only assuming that there are strings on it. I can hear the lead, but I'd defy anybody to tell if he had Seth Lover's or Throbaks, or a Peavey or a Dr. Z (other than looks, of course). I'll submit that 99.9% of the listening public can't hear the difference between a single coil and a humbucker or a hollow body vs. solid. In some cases in a perfect environment they might could tell, but when it comes to listening to a song they would never notice and could not care less.

 

I have zero music education. Not even so much as a guitar lesson. So, maybe this is just one of my many shortcomings. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if it is. I would like to know, though. Do I just not know how to listen critically? Am I hearing impaired? Or am I just one of the few who'll admit it, especially on a guitar forum.

 

This weekend I'll probably be adjusting pickup pole height or changing breakover angle until I get it "just right". Worse ways to waste time, I suppose.

 

BTW, this is not to ridicule those of you who can hear this stuff. I admire that and wish I was one of you. I try awfully hard to get there and will continue to, but I think it's beyond me. Fun trying, though.

[davesultra]

This is a great post, as it sounds like me to a "T". I've been chasing "It" for many years, and have spent a mint in the process. However, I haven't a clue as to what "It" is, or what the hell I'd do with "It" if I found "It". Or does "It" even truly exist? All I do know is if you get "It", see a Doctor and get rid of "It".

[big bob]

Us Bigsby guys will be more than happy to relieve you others of your roller bridges! Really they suck... Just take em off and throw em out!

[pressure]

I spent a long evening at a Death Metal marathon. I didn't know that the guitar player was plugged in until I went right in front of the stage and saw him playing.

[tbonesullivan]

You can slice and dice it any way you want. Look at some of the bridges you'll find on the high end Gretsch guitars. Hardly would I would call a "perfect sound conductor", but they still sound great.

 

I don't really think that you're going to get huge gains from having a little set screw tightened. You've already got quite a bit of downward force on the bridge anyway. How much? Enough that it will eventually crush an original spec ABR-1 tune-o-matic bridge. Some have said that "top wrapping" evolved to help prevent this, but it does illustrate how much downward force is already on a bridge. If you think the sound conduction is bad from a schaller roller bridge, take a look at a Kahler tremolo sometime. Individual multi piece saddles with small action screws and an end point on a cam being the only places where the initial string contact point can conduct sound.

 

Speaking of top wrapping, look at archtop guitars. Look at violins. They have a pretty small break angle, as they also know that this puts more downward pressure on the bridge, which means more sound conduction to the body through the bridge. There usually isn't much, if any, vibration of the strings after the bridge, so that whole thing about having the stop tail being screwed down to give more sound conduction? I call BS.

 

I believe I heard when talking to some of the heritage long timers, that they liked the schaller roller bridge because it gave a "warmer" sound. Schaller has always made standard TOMs, so they definitely could have gotten those had they wanted, though I will admit that the time saving from not having to slot bridges may also have played a part.

 

That said, Schaller doesn't make crap. Their guitar hardware and licensed designs are used throughout the world, and are an industry standard.

[AP515]

I think your ear can get better it discerning a difference in tone. I could always hear a difference (if it was significant enough), but I sometimes didn't know how to interpret it. For example. I was playing a humbucker guitar with a mahogany neck. Then I got a good deal on a humbucker guitar with a maple neck. Before anyone told me what the difference was "supposed to be", my ears heard a difference. A noticeable difference. then I read up on what the difference was supposed to be and it agreed with my ears. That was one of those few "Ah ha" moments.

 

So, you can learn how to hear better.

 

Also, I do hear better sustain with a fixed bridge instead of a roller bridge (usually).

[TalismanRich]

I've never replaced a roller with a TOM type, so I can't say if I would hear a difference or not. I do know that I totally changed the sound of my G&L Legacy simply by resetting the floating trem. It still needs tweaking though but it was the setup that made the difference. The more you play a guitar, the more familiar you are to its sound. I can tell the difference between my Legacy and my Strat. Both maple necks, but different pickups and totally different wiring schemes. The pickups and wiring totally swamp any maple vs rosewood sound.

 

BTW Rod. If you haven't perused all of the old topics, visit this one from our own LK155.

 

Can you pick out the Heritage.

 

No fair cheating by going to the end of the conversation to get the answers.... No No No!

[Spectrum13]

On my H150 I changed out first to a tone pros and then to a Faber but it was never about the tone.

 

First it was to hold the bridge height during string changes and fret cleaning. Then it was from Nashville to ABR-1 for improved locking, lowering the tailpiece and having greater string clearance from the rear of the bridge due to the narrower ABR and then the Farber stainless steel posts better connect to the body and prevent "rocking torque".

 

Yes I spent lots of coin upgrading my goldtop.

[Rod]

I could not pick out the Heritage. I got 2 right, which were the single coils. Almost 3 because I had the 155 down for the 535. Cool test, though. The Doug and Pat show on the PAF's is a good one, too.

 

To confuse myself further, let's extend this into some shade tree physics. AP515 brought up neck material. Let's throw in fingerboards while were at it. I'm not doubting for a second the he and many others can hear a difference. Sometimes I think I can, but I don't understand why. If I think about it quickly, it makes perfect sense that maple is harder than mahogany, hard=bright, soft=dull, muted, whatever. I'd apply the same logic to bodies/tops. While we're on a roll, let's apply the same logic to bridges. That's the easiest one to understand. I can understand that a steel bridge would transfer more energy/vibration to the body than one made out of foam rubber, so hard is good. The harder the better. Titanium is better than pot metal. We're trying to transfer vibration through the bridge to the body, right? Lets say that those hard frets transfer more vibration through that hard maple (or ebony) neck down into the body. We want to feel that body vibrate, right? Resonance. "Even sounds good acoustically". I've probably said it. But this isn't an acoustic guitar. What difference does it make if the top/body vibrates? Seems like what we should be trying to do is keep vibration out of everything but the string itself. Less vibration in the top/body leaves more for the string. String vibration is what creates the current as it passes through the magnetic field, right? Not the vibration of the body, yet we associate a resonant body with grater sustain. I'm thinking the answer lies in the same thing that makes a bell ring. There are more factors at play than just "hard". None of that would explain why a hollow body sounds hollow, either.

 

This is all above my head. Guess the only thing that matters is if it sounds good, whatever that is.

[High Flying Bird]

Gillnetter's thread about replacing the roller bridge with a TonePros inspires this thread. First, a confession. I don't think there's any way in the world I could hear a difference between a roller bridge and a TonePros. That's a difficult confession for even a hack guitar player like me to make. I want to be cool like everybody else and be able to hear all these obvious/subtle differences.

I have zero music education.

My brother. We are from the same tribe. You even know how to use, "Y'all" correctly.

 

You take a guitar and run it through 12 pedals and talk about the new bridge and beat your chest like a monkey. I don't think so either. Probably an electric played acoustically would be the best way to tell. That's how we do it here when we talk guitars. Out of a 550, 357, 2 535s and 2 150s, the 150 thin cut with the roller bridge sustains longer than the rest - it's loud as hell unplugged too. The other 150 and the 357 have Nashville style bridges. The 357 has a TonePros bridge.

[Vanschoyck]

For what it's worth I've never changed hardware on a guitar unless the original gave me some kind of actual problem. I've changed pickups to get more output. I've scrapped guitars when the hardware change is too involved, like when I had one with a Floyd Rose type vibrato. I've had guitars made with options just to tweak conventional wisdom, like my 535 that I had made with a trapeze tail piece. Honestly if it sustained any better it would be unnatural I think. It's kind of like office furniture, you want to be comfortable, express your style, but if you're a plumber you probably have no use for a dentist chair. Sometimes an educated ear can pick up nuance, but on occasion the emperor is just plain naked.

[ironmike]

i have a roller on my old 150, factory stock with ren's magic on the shaller pickups, that guitar was used on the Big Mountain Recording "Baby i love your way" a reggae version. personally, i love the roller bridge, i string 12 guage pyramids on there with a 20 g string and it is one super duper guitar, jazz to country and anything i can think of besides..it is what it is, lay bwhat you have, and play the hell out of it, and if you need another guitar, buy another and another , i have about 18 guitars right now, and i'm settled in,,maybe just need four more!

[Rod]

At least I'm not the only one.

 

I've heard that Eric Johnson can tell by listening what brand of batteries are in his pedals. Perhaps that was just somebody's joking exaggeration that got repeated as fact, like someone saying a golfer can hit a ball a mile. I do wish I could hear some of these nuances. I think I get more out of listening to music because I can play a little. I think I'd get even more if I knew how to listen or was able to hear more. Add to that, I wish that when you went to hear live music that it was mixed/presented in such a way that you could hear the instruments properly. I like loud. My neighbors are witness to that. But even if I turn my stereo up to some skull crushing decibel level I can still hear every instrument. I understand that volume is a substitute for talent in some genres with some bands. I can choose to not attend those, and do. But when it's someone who can really play... I've heard them on the radio or bought their music... I don't understand why there isn't great care given to showcasing talent. Well, maybe I do sort of get it. In a room of a few dozen or a few hundred there are only a few actually listening to the music. The rest are doing anything but. It ruins the experience for me and maybe a couple of others, but we're probably not the target audience.

[Teo22]

I have no experience with any of the subtle differences in bridges that we are talking about here , but I have some experience with computer ear training programs. When you first start your training, the differences between some of the tones is very hard to detect much less identify, but with time it starts happening. You get better and better with time and practice. So I can easily understand how someone can learn to love one bridge over another.

 

Ken

[tbonesullivan]

I've never replaced a roller with a TOM type, so I can't say if I would hear a difference or not. I do know that I totally changed the sound of my G&L Legacy simply by resetting the floating trem. It still needs tweaking though but it was the setup that made the difference. The more you play a guitar, the more familiar you are to its sound. I can tell the difference between my Legacy and my Strat. Both maple necks, but different pickups and totally different wiring schemes. The pickups and wiring totally swamp any maple vs rosewood sound.

 

"resetting" the floating trem? Was the base plate not in the proper groove? I know that G&L recommends that the bridge plate be a certain height off the deck, and that the rest of the action adjustment be done with the individual saddles. They also were offering a special version of the trem that had stainless steel saddles and a steel bridge block. It's a GREAT trem system, one of the best out there IMHO.

 

Another tone obsession I've never really understood is NUTS. Everyone is saying "oh it's gotta be bone!" when you're talking about something that only effects the open string sound. I would think a properly set up and slotted nut that doesn't bind when you bend is more important than what it's made of.

[AP515]

 

...

 

Another tone obsession I've never really understood is NUTS. Everyone is saying "oh it's gotta be bone!" when you're talking about something that only effects the open string sound. I would think a properly set up and slotted nut that doesn't bind when you bend is more important than what it's made of.

I think the nut still plays a role, even when your fretting a note. There is still tension on the string and the nut is till putting downward pressure on the neck. So whatever tone is there on an open string, should be there on a fretted one, with the exception of what change in tone your finger makes.

[TalismanRich]

 

"resetting" the floating trem? Was the base plate not in the proper groove? I know that G&L recommends that the bridge plate be a certain height off the deck, and that the rest of the action adjustment be done with the individual saddles. They also were offering a special version of the trem that had stainless steel saddles and a steel bridge block. It's a GREAT trem system, one of the best out there IMHO.

 

The trem was getting some looseness in some set screws, and I reset the spring tensions and deck height. I think the saddles might need replacing. Its just routine maintenance.

[Kuz]

If you are going make the change, Faber hardware is on all my guitars. Better quality, Better locking system, and it looks better. And yes they are more expensive but worth it to me.

[ironmike]

It is a lot like archery,the Indian behind the bow is what makes The bow accurate,it ain,the the

Bow at all.

[Spectrum13]

It is a lot like archery,the Indian behind the bow is what makes The bow accurate,it ain,the the

Bow at all.

Is the Bow maple, spruce, rosewood, ash, korina or alder?

[Yooper]

Is the Bow maple, spruce, rosewood, ash, korina or alder?

What about string gauge, with round wound, flat wound, or half-round?

[Kuz]

It is a lot like archery,the Indian behind the bow is what makes The bow accurate,it ain,the the

Bow at all.

Unless someone with a compound bow and laser site comes to a traditional long bow contest.

 

For me the Faber stuff was more practical from a locking stand point and the aluminum tailpieces really changed the tone to a more open ringing tone. Plus the Faber locking ABR-1 looks more vintage. Also, in my opinion, if you are going to invest the money and time of changing the hardware why use the pot metal TonePros stuff.

 

But I agree that changing the Nashville hardware to locking ABR is only a personal choice. Larry Carlton prefers the Nashville bridge over the original ABR TOM.

 

So if the guitar sounds great with roller or Nashville hardware..... Well then the guitar sounds great.

[Conneazoo]

Ok, I'm a TonePros guy. As far as being able to hear a difference, there is one. To me, that is.

 

The problem with all of this is that everything is subjective. Whether it's TonePros, Faber, Mahogany, Maple, Ebony, Humbucker, Single Coil, Grover, Sperzel, Glock, Sig, Springfield, Ford, Chevy, Harley, Honda, German Shepherd, Basset Hound, bla bla, yadda yadda. Et. Al., ad nauseum...........

 

Everything. Subjective. Period.

 

The issue is that absolutely nobody wants to feel that they spent their hard earned moola on something that is the least bit inferior.

 

Then again, now that I think on it a bit, isn't that what makes this so much fun?

[tbonesullivan]

It is a lot like archery,the Indian behind the bow is what makes The bow accurate,it ain,the the

Bow at all.

I prefer my archers to be Welsh. Sure they don't shoot on horseback as well, but they are better at bagpipes.

 

As for composition, Yew is the only way to go.

[FredZepp]

I just exchanged a roller for a Nashville bridge on one of my 150s. I was perfectly happy with the roller and I guess I did it mostly for appearance.

 

The difference I've experienced is in terms of the feel. The radius of the bridge feels different and also bending strings without a roller involved probably changes that also. Neither bridge has felt or sounded bad.. I'm not sure that I have a preference so far... it's still a great playing , great sounding solidbody.