Chinese Heritage... The way forward...

[cosmikdebriis]

Well... I guess that'll be a resounding NO then... ;D

[pro-fusion]

I don't sense a desire by any of the Heritage crew to even "get big" on the American scene, let alone get into Asian manufacturing.  They've got a very nice business going, and trying to go big creates lots of headaches.  I'm sure the Heritage founders know all about that, and Vince is undoubtedly receiving a good education in the hazards of the guitar business.

 

It's a mistake to think of Heritage as competing with Gibson.  As much as anything, Gibson nowadays sells "brand cache".  And I say that as a guy who just bought a Gibby SG and is very happy with it.  Heritage, in a sense, functions as the "blue pill" (In Matrix-speak) to people who see through the Gibson hype.  Heritage will probably never be able to compete one-on-one with a behemoth like Gibson, but I believe they will continue to have a very nice business functioning as an alternative for the more sophisticated buyer out there (that's us...).

 

The way I see it, Heritage is actually in a good position to ride out an economic storm.  They're a lean operation that caters to hardcore musicians.  And we're always going to be out there needing a guitar or two.  The flood of Asian instruments may diminish appreciably--those are actually more of a luxury purchase, IMHO.  You know, when Mom and Dad agree to buy little Johnny a guitar that looks kinda like the one his favorite rock star plays, even though Johnny can't play a note.  Those are the purchases that will go "bye-bye" in hard times, along with the $5,000 Gibson and PRS "wall art".  But serious musicians need well-constructed guitars, and I think Heritage will do just fine...

[cosmikdebriis]

the more sophisticated buyer out there (that's us...).

 

Hmm... Steady on with the insults... ;D No... Really... Look up the real meaning of the word "sophisticate" It makes quite a subtle insult to the unwary...  >

1: to alter deceptively ; especially : adulterate

2: to deprive of genuineness, naturalness, or simplicity ; especially : to deprive of naïveté and make worldly-wise : disillusion

3: to make complicated or complex

 

 

Gibson and PRS "wall art". 

 

More interestingly though... We have to be honest with ourselves here. I'm sure the vast majority of us prefer a nice AAAAAAAAAaaaaa flamed top. Doesn't make it sound any better but I'd bet sales would drop without it ???

 

As for me... Guilty as charged... :police:

[pro-fusion]

Hmm... Steady on with the insults... ;D No... Really...

 

More interestingly though... We have to be honest with ourselves here. I'm sure the vast majority of us prefer a nice AAAAAAAAAaaaaa flamed top. Doesn't make it sound any better but I'd bet sales would drop without it ???

 

Ok, maybe I should have used the term "value-conscious buyer."

 

Hey, I like a nicely figured top, but I think the fetish over fancy tops has driven a lot of mediocre guitars to command stupid prices.  That appears to be the entire PRS business model nowadays.  Which is a shame because they were interesting guitars once upon a time.

 

I'd venture to guess that many of the folks buying the $5,000 "wall art" are not buying on the basis of sound or playability at all.  Every time I see crap about "investment-grade" guitars thrown about on Gibson-related forums, my blood pressure rises.  The guitar market will return to sanity once those folks go back to speculating on junk bonds and slum housing... 

[chico]

Face it, G&L's were made in Fullerton by Leo and George and Heritage only comes from Kalamazoo.

 

My 5 cents worth,

 

y2kc

 

agreed here

[PacerX]

I find this thread disturbing.

 

I find the idea that in the middle of this recession (pushing towards depression), in some part due to the destruction of the American manufacturing base, this idea pops up.

 

It's a terrible, terrible idea.

 

It will do nothing but cheapen the brand.

 

 

 

One amazing thing out of the automobile manufacturer's grilling by congress was the admission by them in the house testimony that Chinese products simply do not stack up quality and cost-wise to NAFTA products.  Many of us knew this, but nobody would believe us when we told them.

 

 

 

Do something good for yourselves folks... continue your support for an AMERICAN brand that is a genuine AMERICAN brand.  Americans, from Taylor to American PRSs to American Fenders to Heritage to Martin, make the best production guitars in the world, period.

 

Let's keep that market.  Let's not "rush to the bottom" by turning our sterling guitar industry to another collection of crap coming out of China with a storied and respected name slapped on a piece of trash that probably should end up as firewood.

[JeffB]

I find this thread disturbing.

I find the idea that in the middle of this recession (pushing towards depression), in some part due to the destruction of the American manufacturing base, this idea pops up.

 

It's a terrible, terrible idea.

 

It will do nothing but cheapen the brand.

 

 

One amazing thing out of the automobile manufacturer's grilling by congress was the admission by them in the house testimony that Chinese products simply do not stack up quality and cost-wise to NAFTA products.  Many of us knew this, but nobody would believe us when we told them.

 

 

 

Do something good for yourselves folks... continue your support for an AMERICAN brand that is a genuine AMERICAN brand.  Americans, from Taylor to American PRSs to American Fenders to Heritage to Martin, make the best production guitars in the world, period.

 

Let's keep that market.  Let's not "rush to the bottom" by turning our sterling guitar industry to another collection of crap coming out of China with a storied and respected name slapped on a piece of trash that probably should end up as firewood.

Truth.

Why would you want to  even entertain the idea of Heritage making cheap crap.

Theres so many indistinct brands coming out of Asia now. Light weight pretenders designed purely for separating people from their cash without any thought to service or tone.(can happen by accident though)

I like the fact that Im getting something back thats more than just a visual space filler when I play my own, or other Heritages.

[pro-fusion]

I wouldn't worry too much.  Somehow I can't picture the Heritage guys doing anything of this sort.

 

The loss of the U.S. manufacturing base is a real worry for a lot of us, though, and I'm all for supporting U.S. builders.  Interestingly, though, the loss of manufacturing is a problem throughout the "First World", not just in the USA.  Europeans and Japanese folks have also seen their manufacturing base shrivel up due to cheaper foreign competition.

 

Craft building of the kind that Heritage does is something that doesn't "export" very well, which is one reason I think that Heritage is in a good position.  They don't have all of the corporate overhead that Gibson and Fender have to support, and so there is less pressure to churn out crap products.  At the same time, Heritage is not really a 'boutique' builder, since their production numbers are sufficient to put actual product in stores.

[yoslate]

"Chinese Heritage...The way forward...."  I suppose it could be argued that lemmings are, in fact, moving forward as they scurry to the brink....  I find this thread's premise bordering on the absurd.

[brentrocks]

I wouldn't worry too much.  Somehow I can't picture the Heritage guys doing anything of this sort.

 

right

 

it will never happen

[cosmikdebriis]

Hmm... Things are getting a bit heated... It's only a discussion...

 

One thing I would like to take issue with is that the general consensus seems to be that the Chinese are only able to produce "Cheap crap".

 

That was the same argument levelled at the Japanese manufacturers back in the 70's and in retrospect, after the initial period of production. They produced/produce some very fine instruments indeed. I see no reason the Chinese couldn't behave likewise.

 

One BIG difference would be the price. The Chinese workers will accept lower pay and, I would guess, be prepared to work harder then your average American (or Englishman for that matter).

 

Take a quick look at Chinese art and culture and those guys are certainly not devoid of talent. Don't under estimate the Chinese.

 

Having said all that... None of it is meant to detract from what the guys at Heritage are doing. Far from it. It only re in forces my (personal) opinion that the guys are doing what they do best and should stick to it.

 

The issue was never meant to be whether Heritage could/should compete. Only if the additional ranges would compliment or detract from their current business.

[pro-fusion]

One thing I would like to take issue with is that the general consensus seems to be that the Chinese are only able to produce "Cheap crap".

 

It's not that Chinese folks are incapable of building anything but crap guitars, but that's all they're getting paid to do at the moment. 

 

I'm sure you could set up the equivalent of Heritage in China--they have a cultural tradition of craftsmanship and attention to detail that goes back thousands of years.  But no one from the USA is going to pay them to do that because it's all about cheap mass production.

[PacerX]

Hmm... Things are getting a bit heated... It's only a discussion...

 

One thing I would like to take issue with is that the general consensus seems to be that the Chinese are only able to produce "Cheap crap".

 

Let's call a spade a spade.  That's all they DO produce.  If we're going to take shots at American manufacturers for what they do wrong, then we certainly need to be able to speak the truth about the Chinese manufacturers.

 

 

 

 

That was the same argument levelled at the Japanese manufacturers back in the 70's and in retrospect, after the initial period of production.

 

To this day, I am not aware of a top-flight Japanese guitar brand.

 

ESP?  Well, I guess so... if you can swim through the sea of crap with "LTD" on the headstock first.  They certainly made nice necks for Kramer at one point.

 

Ibanez?  Maybe their custom shop... the rest if generally crap... with a very, very nice neck design for speed playing.

 

Japanese Fenders?  Negative, Ghostrider.  The American stuff blows them away.

 

Who else?  I'm drawing a blank...  Truth is that the Japanese guitar industry has been gutted for two reasons:

 

1) They never really had an original and classic product to hang their hat on.  No Stratocasters.  No Les Pauls.  No Telecasters.

 

2) In the aforementioned "race to the bottom" Japanese cheap labor was out-cheaped by cheap labor from Korea, which is now being out-cheaped by cheap labor from China, which is shortly to be out-cheaped by cheap labor from Vietnam and India.  Where the hell we going to send them next?  Sub-Saharan Africa?  The Moon?

 

 

I got a better idea...

 

Howza bout we just buy the best electric guitars, from the best electric guitar makers in the world and feel good about doing it....

 

They all happen to be American.  Bonus!

 

 

 

 

One BIG difference would be the price. The Chinese workers will accept lower pay and, I would guess, be prepared to work harder then your average American (or Englishman for that matter).

 

I disagree on two points:

 

An American or Englishman will work as hard as anybody, and smarter than most.

 

People are people.  There is no "worker-bee gene" that us Anglos are missing that they somehow have.  In general, US productivity (parts or operations per labor hour) is as good as anyone's, and better than most.

[pro-fusion]

To this day, I am not aware of a top-flight Japanese guitar brand.

 

ESP?  Well, I guess so... if you can swim through the sea of crap with "LTD" on the headstock first.  They certainly made nice necks for Kramer at one point.

 

Ibanez?  Maybe their custom shop... the rest if generally crap... with a very, very nice neck design for speed playing.

 

Japanese Fenders?  Negative, Ghostrider.  The American stuff blows them away.

 

Who else?  I'm drawing a blank...  Truth is that the Japanese guitar industry has been gutted for two reasons:

 

ESP is a top-shelf Japanese custom builder.  Their LTD guitars are Korean or Indonesian starter guitars, much like Epiphone.  The ESP Navigator series instruments are more exact replicas of vintage Gibsons than anyone else builds, including Gibson, from what I've heard.  They also cost more than a Custom Shop Gibson and are only available in Japan for legal reasons.  Apart from copies, ESP will build you anything you want, for a price.

 

Ibanez is essentially a design house that has its guitars built in several different factories, including the Fujigen plant in Japan that puts out quality instruments.  The Ibanez J-Custom guitars are hand-built instruments with fantastic quality that, again, are only sold in Japan.

 

Neither ESP nor Ibanez sends their really good stuff our way.  I think they perceive Gibson, Fender and PRS as having such a lock on the high-end U.S. market, that there's no point.

 

Fender doesn't sell Japanese-made guitars in the USA anymore, but back in the '80s, it was generally agreed that their Japanese guitars were better than their US-made ones.  The Fender USA factory has essentially come back from the dead and makes good guitars again, so things have probably changed.

 

The guitar market in Japan is very large, and the high-end market might actually be healthier than ours.  High importation taxes etc. make American instruments ridiculously expensive there, so Japanese companies have developed a high-end range that might surprise you.

 

The "race to the bottom" is essentially about building the cheapest starter guitar possible, wherever that can be done, and isn't particularly relevant to a maker of professional-caliber guitars like Heritage.

[yoslate]

It's not that Chinese folks are incapable of building anything but crap guitars, but that's all they're getting paid to do at the moment. 

I'm sure you could set up the equivalent of Heritage in China--they have a cultural tradition of craftsmanship and attention to detail that goes back thousands of years.  But no one from the USA is going to pay them to do that because it's all about cheap mass production.

 

Bingo!  It's not about the worker; it's about management, the profit motive, and scale...about the disconnect between the craftsman in the shop and the beancounter in the office (I used to work in the shop, and my old man was plant manager...I lived that relationship!), and it's about the bottom line.  Mao checked out only how long ago?  The Chinese rise to capitalist juggernaut has occurred how quickly?  And with what as a business model...contemporary GM, Wal-Mart, Goldman-Sachs?  China is capitalism on steroids and growth hormone, and the rapidity and scope of the growth are wholly unnatural and will never sustain themselves.  

 

I have come to love the theatrical absurdity of this time of year.  Those few times I have to force myself to go to CVS or any other "pharmacy" for a prescription, I just wander the aisles looking at all the seasonal detritus, checking for "Made in...."  It's ALL from China (Fabrique en Chine)...Christmas lights, mangers, Santa, reindeer, the baby Jesus, Mary's donkey, Frosty, on and on....  And I wonder what occupies the thoughts of the good folk working on the production lines in China, as they crank this "product"out.  

 

My ex-college roomate is fluent in several dialects of Chinese; he's a classical Chinese scholar and a Fullbright Fellow.  He took a job in import/export fifteen-or-so years ago, after flailing around in academia.  The money was fabulous!  But what got to him was the realization that the Chinese culture he loved was in the process of being  co-opted, and the plastic excreta that generated by the container load was being dumped in the U.S. at the cost of a lot of domestic employment.  He said once he realized the implications and the direction that seemed headed (this was over ten years ago) he just didn't have the stomach for it, and he got out.

 

I'm not at all nationalistic by nature, particularly now that it seems the distinctions between nations and corporations are disappearing, and I don't mean this as anything other than what it is, but thank god for Parsons Street, and every little institution just like it...regardless of where they are....   

[cosmikdebriis]

To this day, I am not aware of a top-flight Japanese guitar brand.

 

Who else?  I'm drawing a blank... 

 

1) They never really had an original and classic product to hang their hat on.  No Stratocasters.  No Les Pauls.  No Telecasters.

 

Regards Japanese Top Flight guitars... I'd argue the Yamaha SG range are at least the equal of the Les Paul and compare them in time to the Gibbons of the 70's with their pancake bodies, probably better.. Build quality was superb. Design was an improvement on the LP shape and, in it's own way, the SG2000 was more akin to Les Pauls original design than the Gibbon as it had a through neck. The main difference would be the pickups. The Yamaha had coil taps (which were admittedly of limited use) the other thing is that they were much brighter than the std Gibbon "muddy" pups. To be fair the Yamaha pickups are clearer and more defined but the "sound" people wanted (and seem to still want) was the Gibbon sound. (or is that really the Gibbon image) :wink:

 

Yamaha also made some very interesting guitars of radically different design but they were largely ignored because people wanted "the real thing". Ironically perhaps, Heritage are suffering the same fate.

 

Ibanez, after their 70's copy period also produced some amazing instruments such as the Artist series. More recently they have indeed found their niche market with some VERY prominent musicians that have been prepared to choose an instrument for what it does rather than for the image.

 

In twenty years time the Chinese may well be producing instruments of similar quality, there's absolutely no reason why not.

 

I'm afraid I just don't accept that there's any innate reason an American should be better at producing guitars than anyone else. Surely it's down to the individual ???

[pro-fusion]

Bingo!  It's not about the worker; it's about management, the profit motive, and scale...about the disconnect between the craftsman in the shop and the beancounter in the office (I used to work in the shop, and my old man was plant manager...I lived that relationship!), and it's about the bottom line.  Mao checked out only how long ago?  The Chinese rise to capitalist juggernaut has occurred how quickly?  And with what as a business model...contemporary GM, Wal-Mart, Goldman-Sachs?  China is capitalism on steroids and growth hormone, and the rapidity and scope of the growth are wholly unnatural and will never sustain themselves.

 

Actually, the rise of industrialization in the West occurred almost as quickly.  Germany went from agrarian backwater to industrial powerhouse between about 1850 and 1880.  The rise of the UK, USA and Japan as industrial powers took about the same amount of time, though at different periods.

 

The rise of Chinese-produced goods is a double-edged sword.  If we in the USA could only buy U.S.-produced stuff, it would be a lot more expensive and we would buy a lot less of it, which would have a negative impact on quality of life in general and specifically on other parts of our economy.  But it's questionable whether a country can go for long without a viable manufacturing sector--all of the Western countries are currently experimenting with this, basically.

 

My guess is that things even out eventually.  Our standard of living will go down (it's already doing so), and consequently the cost of manufacturing goods in the USA will go down.  Why do you think Toyota and Honda build so many cars in the USA now?  It's cheaper to do that than to ship the Japanese-made ones here.  In fact, I believe labor costs are now lower in the USA than in Japan.  Nobody's opening new plants to build much of anything in Japan.  Ultimately, products that can be built with unskilled labor can, and will, be built wherever costs are lowest.

 

China is in real economic danger by relying so heavily on exports and not working harder to develop a domestic market for its products.  If we can't buy it, they can't sell it...

 

Getting back to guitars, I'm old enough to remember when starter guitars were truly atrocious, regardless of where they came from.  Today's Chinese-made Epiphone or Squier is a better instrument than that, not to mention the better cheap amplifiers, recording gear, etc.  Life is much better for the beginning guitarist today than it was for us.  

 

It may be that the future of U.S. industry is more like Heritage than like the Gibson of old.  No amount of industrialization and cheap labor can produce a Heritage.  Specialized, smaller-scale manufacturing offers potentially higher profits and wages than big industry ever will again in this country.

[JeffB]

I didnt think the topic was getting heated. Apologies if I came across that way.

Im sure The Chinese can make a good quality product. But a majority of their guitar related products are not high quality products.

They are not intended to be. They are products that are designed to be made cheaply and imitate the real thing.

Thats how OS companies set up business in China.

 

We sell Chinese made products and we have Chinese customers.

It cracks me up when they ask where something is made.

They dont want Chinese made products(although they want to pay Chinese made prices) They want German, Danish, U.S and UK made products!!

Why??

 

"Where's this flute made?"

"China"

"No no I want good one. One made Germany or Japan. I pay extra. You do cheaper for me.

 

If any Chinese are reading this, there is honestly no malice in my post. I enjoy dealing with Chinese people. Very warm, friendly and always smiling and making jokes. Good customers who like to build relationships.

[Spectrum13]

I have to say my Eastman is made in China and is of equal quality to my American made. Sure it was designed by Bob Benedetto (otherwise no reason it would be this interesting) but well crafted and has that handmade personality. Should you play a couple of the same models they feel and sound very different. My Japan made 355 Edwards (not laminated & not for export) while a great guitar has an overbuilt quality. I would say the available or purchased woods and skill of the worker to carve the top and back a bit thinner and/or work with the raw materials in a way to acheive the best individual instrument is where it falls short of a 555. So the rest of the world can produce of equal quality but it takes first rate design, craftmenship and materials.

[PacerX]

Fender doesn't sell Japanese-made guitars in the USA anymore, but back in the '80s, it was generally agreed that their Japanese guitars were better than their US-made ones. 

 

Generally agreed by whom?

 

I've owned both.  No way.  The American stuff ALWAYS had better hardware, wood and electronics.

 

 

The "race to the bottom" is essentially about building the cheapest starter guitar possible, wherever that can be done, and isn't particularly relevant to a maker of professional-caliber guitars like Heritage.

 

No.  The race to the bottom takes the high-end manufacturers with it.  The reason being that the low-end manufacturers are constantly striving to reach the high end where the profit margins are vastly greater - dragging them down at the same time.

[TalismanRich]

At this point, it depends a lot on what the Heritage company wants for the brand.      The use of a lower cost import line can dilute the name and reputation.  At the same time it can generate profit.

 

I have several US and import guitars.  I have a G&L Legacy (3 bolt USA)  and a newer ASAT special Tribute.  Both fine guitars.  The wood on the Tribute isn't as nice as the US, especially the maple neck, but the workmanship and playability are both excellent.  But if you know  anything about G&L,  they tried to push the import line as TRIBUTE by G&L.  Now they say G&L  Tribute Series.    Apparently the Tribute name didn't carry the acceptance factor that a G&L did.

 

I have a Korean Dearmond Starfire Special that is a darn nice guitar.  It's not the same as the Guild Starfire IV, but the Dearmond GoldTones have a charm all their own.    Now there is actually a demand for Dearmonds on their own merits, not as a "cheap" Guild.

 

On the other hand,  I've played Mexican Strats and Teles that ripped flesh from the lousy fret jobs.  A custom shop Fender can be super, but my collection doesn't have one.  A couple of Epis that I tried just didn't feel right.

 

The thing that brought me to Heritage is the hand built aspect.  That was really brought home after I toured the shop about a month ago.  How such beautiful works of art come out of the dust is amazing.  It's old school... sometimes that's a good thing.  It's like point-to-point wiring in amps.  Is it necessary?  No.  Is there a place for it?  Absolutely.

 

Somehow, I didn't get the impression for Rendell that they are in this to be big.  They want to make quality.  I think that they wanted to generate cash, it would be better to do another name, perhaps as an older one with a bit of history like Guild / Dearmond,  or as Aria has done with the D'Aquisto name (but in reverse). 

[cosmikdebriis]

Karma up for such an eloquent response...

[pro-fusion]

Somehow, I didn't get the impression for Rendell that they are in this to be big.   They want to make quality.  I think that they wanted to generate cash, it would be better to do another name, perhaps as an older one with a bit of history like Guild / Dearmond,  or as Aria has done with the D'Aquisto name (but in reverse). 

 

That's one thing I find reassuring about Vince joining the company.  He seems to have the same vision for Heritage that the old hands do.  In other circumstances, you might worry about how the company would evolve once the founders decide to retire.

 

Going big isn't necessarily better...it brings lots of additional problems and risks along with the opportunities.

[backline]

Yeah, as a newby I'll chime in here.

 

I never thought the crew at Heritage was interested in competing for more market than they currently are able to sustain.

 

WE may wish them well and even speculate about what could or couldn't be achieved with some more grease, but the world is flooded with offshore knockoffs of classic American patterns already.

 

Given the worldwide economic leveling, I'd try to weather the storm and survive by continuing straight ahead with simple proven designs. Sometimes conservatism gets a bad rap, but recent economic hiccups may take down the power brokers faster than the humble and in the black.

 

It's not the size of the pumpkin patch that gets my attention, it's the sincerity.

-The Great Pumpkin

[bolero]

it sounds like they are busy enough as it is...and making another inexpensive import model would not make sense to me, as it seems that market is already saturated IMO