Has anybody ever looked underneath the neck pick up?

[jacques]

One of the topics concerning quality of glued necks in Les Paul or ES style guitars is the famous long neck tenon.

I asked Rendal Wall about that and he gave me the rather obscure answer: "We use a long enough tenon to keep the neck stable. We are happy with our tenon, and feel that it is more than adequate”. Ever since I've been wondering wether the tenon runs all the way underneath the neck pick up or not. I know the Gibsons don't have it, except for expensive custom shop models. Anybody out there knows more?

[GuitArtMan]

I've probably been inside all of my Heritages and have never bothered to look.  It just doesn't matter to me.  If the guitar plays, sounds and sustains great, what does it matter if the tennon is long or short?  Do all long tennon guitars rock?  Nope.  Do all short tennon guitars suck?  Nope. 

 

If you like the guitar and find out it has a short tennon, are you going to not like it?  Sadly I feel most of the internet population would say yes.

[Thundersteel]

Yes, I've looked under all mine. None of them have the long tenon. But does it bother me? Nope!

[Dick Seacup]

Hamer makes a big deal about the length *and* the girth...er, width...of their tenon.  And how tightly they're mated to the body.  Do I think it makes a difference?  Maybe.  If the joint is mostly glue and not so much wood-to-wood contact, I can imagine there is some loss of coupling.  But, if the joint is solid, does it make a difference if the tenon is 1/2" longer or shorter?  I can't imagine that is true.  On a solid-body electric guitar, I have to believe that the electronic parts make a bigger difference than the size of the tenon.  But, what do I know, I'm just a UNIX guy, not a mechanical engineer.

[jacques]

Thanks for the information and comments.

Of course I don't love my Heritages less now I know about the tenon - that would be rather sick, wouldn't it?

It is just out of curiousity and for my web site where I like to give accurate information. Since the founding boys at Heritage all originate from early Gibson years, I was just wondering what choices they made in this long time vintage-or-not-vintage discussion about neck tenons. I have an article of the British magazine Guitar & Bass about a visit to the Heritage plant. There are some pictures of guitar parts and they show rather huge tenons on the necks - hence my confusion about this topic. I would rather have Rendal Wall explain why the Heritage luthiers made the choice for their type of neck-to-body construction, but I understand they need their time for making guitars instead of answering all these questions.

[Gitfiddler]

'Tenon Envy'  A condition brought on by way too much time examining, inspecting, disecting, analyzing your guitar...rather than playing it!

 

I've played bolt-on guitars that scream and sustain and just sound fantastic.  So when the topic of tenon length comes up, I just shake my head and turn up the amp volume. 

[Thundersteel]

Gitfiddler is correct. Once the drummer and bass kick in, you won't be able to hear any so-called "perceived" difference anyway!

 

[glow=red,2,300]Turn it up and enjoy![/glow]

[JimmyTheSaint]

Has anyone here actually a/b'ed two guitars that were as similar as possible aside from the length of the neck tenon? Isn't that the only way to experience the difference and decide for yourself if the difference is worth the cost?

[Dick Seacup]

I haven't looked under the pups, but when I start the clean and setup of the 137 tomorrow, I'll let you know what I find as to tenon dimensions.

[jacques]

Well, have you, Dick?

[Dick Seacup]

Well, actually, I did pull the pups when I did the clean, restring, setup dance.  And I can't specifically recall what the tenon looked like.    I did take pictures, though, so maybe there's one that shows it...when I get home tonight I'll look through them and report back.

[V23505]

Looked under the neck pickup of my H157 when last restringing it and no, mine doesn't have a long neck tenon. It's available as an option on the H150/7. I'm thinking of custom ordering an H150 from Jay at some point and will probably spec it as have liked the G****n offerings with it, but the sustain on my H157 compares very well indeed with those offerings. Love that guitar!

[Kazwell]

I Googled this maybe it will help. Supposed to be what a long tenon looks like under the neck pickup. I thought I saw what looked similar it on my H-150 when I replaced the PUPS, but I could be wrong. I know one thing, and it's not my imagination, whether iit is a long tenon or not, the neck on my 150 feels much more solid than any neck on any electric I have ever owned.

 

http://home.columbus.rr.com/ethomas/jp_relic_tenon.jpg

 

Here's something I stumbled across while looking for pics, from uh Greco guitars.

 

Neck Joint:

 

Early 70's Grecos such as the EG360 had bolt on necks. These are relatively well made but not really in the scope of this page.

 

Mid 70's onward Greco guitars with "set" or glued in necks used a variety of neck joints. You can view pictures HERE (this link takes you to a photo of all three views:

 

http://www.cosmikdebris.co.uk/grecopics.htm#tenon    )

 

"Tenon and Dowel"

 

This is a very sturdy joint and the dowels which run longitudinally along the tenon add plenty of strength. This joint can be identified by two dowel ends, either side of the tenon, protruding into the pickup cavity. This tenon is often off centre to give maximum width but to allow for the cutaway in the bottom bout. It is my preferred method and second only to a genuine through neck design. (Not found on a Les Paul)*.

 

"Long Tenon"

 

The tenon extends into the pickup cavity, usually about halfway. It is necessary to machine the top of the tenon to allow space for the pickup and so this type of joint can be recognized by a "tongue" which is usually rounded off in the bottom of cavity.

 

"Standard Tenon"

 

This is the weakest and least desirable joint and is usually only found on Korean manufactured guitars. The tenon tends to be shallow and has no other structural support.

 

*Note: Les Paul originally designed his guitar to have a through neck but Gibson didn't follow the design to cut costs. Oh well, what might have been?

[Kazwell]

Here's the link to a topic posted last week regarding the neck cavity of the H-150 being too shallow.  Could it be due to the long tenon?

 

 

  http://www.heritageownersclub.com/forums/i...opic,293.0.html

[rooster]

I've looked under mine many times in the course of swapping pickups. The deal with the tenon is this. At the big "G" factory, the short-tenon models, like the Standards, Customs, Deluxes, etc., use not only a shorter tenon, but they carve the bottom like the bottom of a boat, and rock it into position, then fill it up with glue. The long-tenon joints are much more solid, as they are carved for a good fit, and you see those on the Historic series. At Heritage, they use a shorter tenon, but it's carved to fit the body cavity flush. Therefore, the wood-to-wood contact is MUCH better than a standard big "G" guitar. This is why the Heritage guitar's tone, sustain, etc., compare very favorably to that of the Historic series from big "G". It's not the length of the tenon that matters, it's how you use it.

 

rooster.

[grayta]

It's not the length of the tenon that matters, it's how you use it.

 

rooster.

 

More Mt. Dew on keyboard. LMAO ;D

[jacques]

Nah! Watch my old topic come alive again!

 

I knew guitar playing is one of the purest forms of sublimation, but I never figured the length of the neck tenon played such a major part in the whole process.

 

Since I read this topic I begin to understand so much more about myself.

 

Thanks guys!

[tulk1]

Had a chance to open up my 157 tonite. Took some pics. Not very good ones, tho'. This is the best one. No long tenon, not that I care. Just thought a pic might be of interest.

 

[Kazwell]

Interesting. As I stated in a previous post on this thread, referencing this page from a website that is featuring Greco guitars which I stumbled across when looking for a photo of a long tenon example.

 

The is the page, and as you will see, they give three examples, long tenon, dowel design and then short tenon.

 

The page is located here (you have to scroll down to the middle of the page):

 

http://www.cosmikdebris.co.uk/grecopics.ht.../longtennon.jpg

 

Now here's where it gets interesting, as you saw if you clicked on the link and saw the section showing the three examples, the first, which they call the "long tenon" design, looks to me very similar

to the photo that tulk1 posted:

 

<img src="http://www.cosmikdebris.co.uk/pics/longtennon.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[Kazwell]

This is the example of a long tenon from the first link I posted above.

 

[Kazwell]

Another example. This is of a Japanese Edwards guitar, a company that is very vocal about the fact that their LP copies all have "long tenon" design.

 

Here is the Google images link that has the Greco at the top and the Edwards guitar thumbnail photo at the end of the second column with the words "Edwards Guitars: Long Tenon" below it.

 

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&...sa=N&tab=wi

 

Here is the full size photo:

 

http://home.columbus.rr.com/ethomas/jp_relic_tenon.jpg[/img]

[Kazwell]

And this is the last one, I promise from the G forum. Gives a good side view of the designs. Looks like tulk1's guitar is a short tenon-I was starting to suspect it was possibly at least a "transitional".

 

http://www.pisotones.com/Elias/LP-Custom/Tenons.jpg[/img]

[Kazwell]

Sorry. I have to add this photo, it is a good bottom view comparison between the design of long vs short tenon.

 

[Kazwell]

Now here's where it gets interesting, as you saw if you clicked on the link and saw the section showing the three examples, the first, which they call the "long tenon" design, looks to me very similar

to the photo that tulk1 posted:

 

Let me clear something up here. I was referring to the lip that extends past the fretboard before it drops off at the cavity as looking like tulk1's photo. I left out a sentence there, that however I don't see the tongue in his photo.

 

I never questioned tulk1 ones fact. I just thought I heard about the tenon on a Heritage being some sort of hybrid, as far as length. It may have very well been that the salesperson was as confused as I was. He stated it was a long tenon, but not like the one in the historics. Perhaps he was getting at what was previously stated regarding how the tenon that is used is put in differently. Oh well. At least the photos show examples of what the differences are.

 

Sorry if I interjected an confusion on this issue.

[tulk1]

It only took you five more posts to say that?  ;D

 

Personally, I always find those pictures to be fascinating. I never mind seeing them again. I didn't think mine had a long tenon. But you think it does? Hmmm, could be the way it's finished off inside the cavity. Makes it hard to tell. But in the pic I see a definite "line" where it could be the end of the tenon. My minds eye has always seen the long tenon as you have it in the second photo (cream colored guitar?) Then again, I'm fairly certain my '74LPC does not have a long tenon, and that is one sustaining sob!