PLEK vs Human

[LittleLeroy]

I'm using HANGAR18's post as a jumping off point. He said,

 

"Well I'm sure i'll get a lot of pushback from what I'm about to say (rum & diet coke in hand) but...

 

In my humble assessment, Heritage fretwork before the new owners took over was shit because they didn't plek the frets like Gibson does and if all you ever do is play jazz with a high action, who cares? It's no big deal. BUT if you want a low action with high performance (plays like butter) the factory never got their frets to that level of perfection.

 

You want proof? Here's one of my brand new Heritage guitars at the plek machine a few years ago.

"

 

And Guy sez,

"That is a very accurate statement, it is not 2013 down there anymore... We talked for years about how you buy and new guitar and have a pro fully set it up to get the best, which is not the case anymore in most instances.

You, like me expect a guitar to play superbly... They are at pretty darn good right now without the PLEK.. which I expressed should be a primary core investment at the market they are seeking."

 

 

Not to be "pushing back", but that vid says it's a "well played H-157", not a brand new one. That said, the vid does show a very dramatic improvement. Now that I have a few Heritage guitars I have to wonder did I just get lucky 3x, or is the fretwork in general a bit better than "shit"? 'Cause the guitars I have all play exceptionally well with no fret issues, with the newest I have being a 2016. Granted there's an uncertain amount of subjectivity with respect to action and setup and I find I always need to tweak to get what's right for me.

 

I've had more than a few Gibsons that were PLEK'd that had fret issues and because of that I've preferred the human touch rather than the machine.

 

I have some questions about the PLEK:

1. Is Heritage using it now and, if so, when did they start using it?

2. Does it matter how fresh the blades are?

3. Does it matter how experienced the operator is?

4. If it's PLEK'd at the factory and is then sold to someone living in a very different climate and the neck shifts, won't that make the PLEK moot?

 

I'm keeping an open mind regarding the PLEK, but I'm not convinced yet it's absolutely better than a skilled luthier.

 

 

[Spectrum13]

(rum & diet coke in hand) but... I would lay off the diet sodas

 

 

 

You, like me expect a guitar to play superbly... They are at pretty darn good right now without the PLEK.. which I expressed should be a primary core investment at the market they are seeking." I expect a factory setup like Gibson. Some like higher nuts and it's easier to lower high nuts than to jack it up. (Slammer, I am not setting up a joke for you) Bridges raised to taste and the shop should be able to do a setup especially when the customer picks it up at the retailer.

 

 

 

I've had more than a few Gibsons that were PLEK'd that had fret issues and because of that I've preferred the human touch rather than the machine.

 

I have some questions about the PLEK:

1. Is Heritage using it now and, if so, when did they start using it? As far as I can tell No

2. Does it matter how fresh the blades are? Operator should know how to maintain their investment in a plex

3. Does it matter how experienced the operator is? Bingo Bingo Bingo

4. If it's PLEK'd at the factory and is then sold to someone living in a very different climate and the neck shifts, won't that make the PLEK moot? Firm believer to wait an see if/when the neck shifts BEFORE having it Pleked. Only my 2007 150 was pleked a couple of years ago and it came out prefect. Out of my six Heritages three had neck movement and on three I never needed to touch the truss rod. Your experience would differ...

 

I'm keeping an open mind regarding the PLEK, but I'm not convinced yet it's absolutely better than a skilled luthier. Depends on your Luthier and depends on the operator of the Plek depends on how low and perfect you need your action depends on how straight your neck is and how temps and humidity react to your guitar.

 

 

[buzzy]

PLEK, shmeck . . .

 

I've consistently brought random guitars to playable condition by hand and I am nowhere near Luther caliber.

I've also been critical of factory setup new guitars (Gibson & PRS).

 

Imagine the permutations of player preference and then deliver an instrument to a dealer to satisfy those variations.

 

There is an argument here that might never be settled PtP let alone over the internet. I like guitars and I appreciate the skills required to make them. I believe I'll Go back to reading and practicing.

 

And, FYI, only five into a six of New Glarus.

[Buckyrock]

Plek is a tool - it's only as good as it's operator.

 

A few years ago, it's my understanding that Heritage had a Plek machine, but wasn't using it because Plek wanted money for updated software (or something like that). What I saw when I was at the factory was that Heritage was using the Plex machine as a coat rack.

 

All of my Heritages need a fret level when they were brand new. And new nuts. But I'm picky - your mileage may vary.

 

I do not know if Heritage is Plek'ing guitars now, or not.

[HANGAR18]

A couple of things to consider here in no particular order. Modern machines are far faster and more "precision" than human beings. Even a machinist will need to use a micrometer because the human eye cannot physically see such small tolerances. CnC machines can carve necks with a plus/minus degree of error within 1000th the width of a human hair. No Luthier on the planet can discern such differences and can't achieve such results in anywhere near the same time that a CnC machine can get a neck there. I'm totally fine with a CnC machine carving a neck because time is money and the Luthier is on the clock by the hour and I don't want to pay more for a guitar because some human can't get the boring stuff done in a timely manner due to his human limitations.

 

Heritage and Gibson make necks the old fashioned way. Why? Because that's their thing. It's what they do. Individual pieces of fret wire are pressed into position with a hand press. It is not a very precision thing. At that point, they have one of two options. They can dress the frets by hand and in turn drive up their production costs which will be passed along to you... Or they can cheat by using precision machines that will get the job done right and get it done fast. Fast and correct can be a Plek machine OR it can e done like PRS does it (since someone just mentioned them). They don't Plek their fretboards and they don't need it either. (I know, I keep taking all my new PRS guitars to the same Plek machine to get scanned and they were all just fine).

 

Instead, what they do is kind of a hybryd method between machine precision and hand crafting. The necks are carved with a CnC machine and the frets are set and superglued into the fingerboard by hand. From there, they have what I would describe as a long skinny pre-radiused "troft" (for lack of a better word) which was precision made by a machine/computer and is lined with a fine emory cloth. The neck is turned over and dropped frets down into the pre-radiused troft where a guitar builder will push and pull the neck back and forth by hand which basically levels and polishes all the frets at once. Fast and accurate way to get all the frets level in relation to each other. THEN the neck gets mounted to the guitar body. I don't see Heritage or Gibson adopting that method.

 

There is no disgrace in guitars needing to be Plek'd. No disgrace to the builder and no disgrace to the manufacturer. I just see it as a fact of life that machines or computers must be used at certain times in order to overcome mankind's human limitations. If the Amish ever tried to build a Les Paul guitar using only the tools and resources that were available during the years of 0AD to 30AD, it would either not be made very well or it would cost a fortune due to the length of time it took to build. The labor cost would drive the cost of the guitar into the Stratosphere. No thanks.

 

Building a Les Paul style guitar is basically a 300 step process. Some of those steps should be performed by a machine and some should be performed by a skilled guitar builder. A smart businessman would know how to divide up the work appropriately between the two in order to offer a great product at a competitive but also profitable price.

[brentrocks]

I think a talented luthier can make a guitar play just as nice as a plek machine.....I have played many plecked and non plecked guitars and IMO, a good human setup, is just as good.

[asharrow]

I am on the fence. My H-555 was Plek'd. It is absolutely superb. My H-157 was not Plek'd, it is absolutely superb. Both have low actions "like butter".

That said I have a Les Paul Standard, it is also a really nice guitar now, but I had issues with it. Especially bending notes on frets 19,20,21,..where the E and B would die and "squeek". I took it to a local renowned guitar repairman/setup man who is in his mid 70's. He set the neck up great and manually fret hone filed the problem frets where the heel meets the body.

 

I have a 1978 Fender Strat that I bought new. I wore the frets out on it. I had them honed and rehoned over the years, I had the same gentleman re-fret that old Strat for me. I had him go up one minor size to just slightly larger frets. Then he honed them by hand and set it up. It is better than new. Great action...Fast !

 

I have also worked in automation technology for over 30 years, so I understand precision. I also know how machines do need calibration and are effected by climate and also neglect and improperly trained operators.

 

In summary: I am on the fence.

I would trust the Plek over some 20 year old that works at the guitar center ! However, I would trust my 70+ year old guitar repair/setup expert over the Plek. Interesting side note, his apprentice/co-worker is in his late 50's and is an accomplished guitarist. Something about age and experience doing it old school by hand, warms my heart.

[pressure]

I have had all my guitars PleKed, Fender Custom Shop, Hamers, Heritage and they all turned out Fab. My guitar teck, George McPhail at the Music Gallery, is my age (39 or so). George used to do outstanding fret work completely by hand but now runs the PleK machine and then finishes the guitars by hand. There is a considerable amount of knowledge and skill involved in operating a PleK machine and doing the final finishing. I do not think Gibson's factory PleK is the same as getting an individual custom PleK dress.

[pressure]

PleK videos with my friend George.

 

https://youtu.be/FI6YU6HKPuU

 

And they do more than just frets... they do fretboards!

 

https://youtu.be/bvVav7KYpCo

[pressure]

I earned my living doing photo retouching, hand lettering and ads on paper. Then my studio got a computer that could do photo retouching (no more burning thru the cyan layer on a $300.00 dye transfer at 11:00 at night and having to start all over on a spare dye transfer finally finishing at 9:00 am the next morning), lettering and ad layouts 10 times better in half the time and everything was consistent and repeatable. I told the studio I wasn't going to use some new fangled, electronical machine to do what I could do that would take me 10 times longer, was inconsistent and everytime I needed to do something again I would start all over... NOT! Its the future get with the program.

[Millennium Maestro]

When I have read Gibson's marketing, I Believe they specify Plek'd cut nuts... They do not have fret work that meets my standards on most guitars I see. My point was the new guitars are pretty darn good! (Nut work and fret work).

 

Under the original regime, there was an oldtimer standard of setups that was established in the 50's.

I will always say a machine is more consistent, I would always rather put my money into someones hand that has developed a skill!

I've had more than a few Gibsons that were PLEK'd that had fret issues and because of that I've preferred the human touch rather than the machine.

 

[HANGAR18]

When I have read Gibson's marketing, I Believe they specify Plek'd cut nuts... They do not have fret work that meets my standards on most guitars I see. My point was the new guitars are pretty darn good! (Nut work and fret work).

 

 

Gibson does use a Plek machine to dress the frets. I saw the ones they use in Memphis. I've also had a brand new Gibson Les Paul scanned by the Plek machine which was down the road here. Yes, they use a Plek for fret dressing.

[LittleLeroy]

Is this you, pressure? (from the Music Gallery site)

 

“Backstory: I bought an Eagle in early 2013 and immediately brought it to the Chicago Fret Works to be set-up. This is a highly respected place that only does guitar repairs and service ( http://www.chicagofretworks.com/). I paid $100 to have the "Works" done: "The Works includes precision level, re-crown and polish of your instruments frets along with complete set-up of truss rod, string height (action) and intonation. This work will minimize fret buzz, eliminate fret pitting and divits, and improve your overall tone! The whole instrument will be cleaned and polished and all hardware and electronics inspected, cleaned, and lubed. They did a really nice job and the improvements compared to how the guitar was set up when it was first delivered were significant. Nonetheless, it was still the most challenging of my Heritage guitars to play (I have two Prospects, a Millie and a 445). Following 1) the purchase of a newly Plek'ed G&L and 2) Hangar18's post on Plek'ing, I decided to take it to the Music Gallery in Highland Park, IL ( http://www.musicgalleryinc.com/) to have to it Plek'ed ($225). The G&L, and now this Eagle are the easiest of my guitars to play, even with 12s on the Eagle. I will be taking my Prospects and my Millie there for the same treatment in the future. So that's my contribution to the debate over manual set-up vs. Plek; two plek'ed guitars and two positive experiences.”

 

The video of George McPhail doing his Plek treatment is very convincing!

[Polo]

Pleking is a luxury similar to high end pair of undies.

[y2kc]

The area I live in has a batch of great guitar techs and George in one of the best. He is also a good person. I have a guitar I purchased from him decades ago from his personal collection.

Plek machines are only as good as the man operating them and I imagine Georges work is fantastic. The Music Gallery is a great place to visit.

 

Just give me a guitar that is inspiring to play, Plecked or not.

 

y2kc

 

 

[LittleLeroy]

The area I live in has a batch of great guitar techs and George in one of the best. He is also a good person. I have a guitar I purchased from him decades ago from his personal collection.

Plek machines are only as good as the man operating them and I imagine Georges work is fantastic. The Music Gallery is a great place to visit.

 

Just give me a guitar that is inspiring to play, Plecked or not.

 

y2kc

 

 

I visited their site and am surprised they don't carry Heritage guitars. Seems like Heritage would be a perfect fit.

[y2kc]

They carried Heritage at one time I do believe.

[pressure]

Please note that while sitting here in my silk undies I am keying in my responses via a Morse telegraph machine... After all if the telegraph is good enough to replace the Pony Express for nation wide communication in the hands of a skilled operator why change?

[pressure]

By the way the telegraph is working out much better than the smoke signals I was using before. EPA problems are now a thing of the past!

[Spectrum13]

By the way the telegraph is working out much better than the smoke signals I was using before. EPA problems are now a thing of the past!

 

If its not broke, don't fix it!

[Jim W]

By the way the telegraph is working out much better than the smoke signals I was using before. EPA problems are now a thing of the past!

But all the kids today are into wireless stuff.........

[ElNumero]

Please note that while sitting here in my silk undies I am keying in my responses via a Morse telegraph machine... After all if the telegraph is good enough to replace the Pony Express for nation wide communication in the hands of a skilled operator why change?

I prefer Spandex

[kidsmoke]

I prefer Spandex

bike shorts, specifically, if I do recall....

[Kuz]

When a human can measure/scan frets (and measure the fret board too) to .0001 inch UNDER STRING TENSION and then file the offending frets to within .0001 inch..... then I will take my guitars to that Luthier. And don't confuse a factory generic Plek job to a custom Plek job with feedback from the customer on action, how hard they play, ect.

 

Almost all my guitar get a custom Plek and it is the best $125-150 I will ever spend.

 

And honestly, how many people here commenting on this thread have actually PLAYED a guitar with a custom Plek job?

[Gtwibs]

The 530 i owned had a custom PLEK job before I bought it from another forumite. Great guitar, but I was not blown away by the setup. It wasn't any better than any of my other guitars.

 

I also ended up actually adjusting the truss rod a decent amount with the guitar, but that's probably more due to the basement environment it lives in.

 

These videos are really cool! If money was not an option for me, i'd definitely consider having it done just so that I can have precise input.