cobo Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 I like the sound of a cranked-up, overdriven tube amp. My wife? Not so much. This is the ticket: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy4bgf-5tHw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 I've tried a half-dozen or so attenuators. None have quite done the job without coloring the sound. It was a fun rabbit hole to travel. Do you have one of these? Or, if you get one, I'm curious about your observations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DetroitBlues Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 If I could get a decent one too, I might start playing a tube amp again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
212Mavguy Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 What Steiner said...+1. I have a couple, nice ones. Weber Mass 100 watt with a full tone stack (volume treble mid bass on the line out), lots of bellls and whistles... and a handwired one of a kind Ultimate Attenuator from Mr. Ho in Canada. Of the two. the UA colors the sound the least. Cranking a loud amp and then attenuating down to a whisper does not change the fact that the amp's power section is still running cranked... this causes a lot more heat to be given off by the tubes and the parts in the power section. How the amp is built as far as the capacity of the chosen parts used has a correlation with how well it can endure that kind of treatment. A top end boutique amp with robust parts all across the board ls likely to tolerate that kind of thing MUUUUUUCH more than a Chinese PCB construction, many of those use parts of lower capacity than they should in order to hit price point. The best way to use an attenuator is to not overdo it. By that I mean that using it to reduce a slightly too loud volume setting is fine, but don't expect your dimed 18 to 200 watt beast choked down to a whisper to operate indefinitely without some kind of accelerated tube wear and overheating/early failure of amp circuit parts. Slightly rather than hugely attenuating an amp output also causes less effect on the amp's tone from the attenuating device. Amp geeks like to use upgraded master volume designs, or use controls to reduce the voltages inside the amp. London Power for instance has a product line designed to do just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobo Posted December 6, 2017 Author Share Posted December 6, 2017 I've tried a half-dozen or so attenuators. None have quite done the job without coloring the sound. It was a fun rabbit hole to travel. Do you have one of these? Or, if you get one, I'm curious about your observations.Yes, I have one - that’s me in the video. To determine how much the attenuator changes the sound, I recorded my best imitation of that David Gilmour solo into my looper pedal, and then recorded how the amp sounded at each attenuation setting by playing it back and recording a new track each time. At each attenuation setting, I adjusted the mic preamp gain to be roughly the same input level as the previous recording. So I ended up with ~6 individual tracks of the exact same solo, all at different attenuation settings, but at the same overall volume. When I played back the tracks and switched between them, I could hardly hear a difference, except for the most-attenuated settings where there was some increased treble. But the attenuator has a Presence switch to roll off some of those high frequencies at the higher attenuation settings, which compensates quite well. I’ll make a YouTube video of those track comparisons soon and will update this thread. Overall, I’m very happy will the attenuator’s ability to give me the overdriven tone I want for recording, without deafening me or pissing off my wife. I’ll be the first to agree that a cranked-up attenuated amp doesn’t have the same overall impact as cranked-up non-attenuated amp - you don’t feel the bass notes shaking the room or slamming into your body, and that makes a big difference in the overall experience. But for recording, it’s an excellent solution. Colm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gitfiddler Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Not to derail this thread to far, but I have a question about attenuators. What's the difference between playing a low powered amp (e.g. 5, 15, 18 watt Champ, Princeton, Super Champ, etc.) at cranked volume compared to a medium-to-high powered amp cranked but attenuated? Wouldn't the wear and tear on the small amp be greater than an attenuated higher watt amp, due to the size/capacity of the tubes, tranny and other components? I ask this because I often run my smaller amps pretty hot when jamming at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yooper Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Gitfiddler said: Not to derail this thread to far, but I have a question about attenuators. What's the difference between playing a low powered amp (e.g. 5, 15, 18 watt Champ, Princeton, Super Champ, etc.) at cranked volume compared to a medium-to-high powered amp cranked but attenuated? Wouldn't the wear and tear on the small amp be greater than an attenuated higher watt amp, due to the size/capacity of the tubes, tranny and other components? I ask this because I often run my smaller amps pretty hot when jamming at home. This is what I do. Since I discovered "down-watting", most of my jams and even some gigs are with a 12" 5F1 or Champ II. They even take pedals well enough to kick out some great sounds. So far, the little tykes are holding their own. Full on power is gratifying and fun, but not practical for most situations. My channel switching Mesas soothe my needs for loud heavy gain otherwise. I think what we need is more outdoor jams somewhere out in the countryside. (Not a hint...or is it?) Another idea is to get together at a rental hall and have a blast. Of course that may require renting a suitable PA as well. We have enough members concentrated in some areas for this to be an option. Why wait for PSP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElNumero Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 3 hours ago, Yooper said: This is what I do. Since I discovered "down-watting", most of my jams and even some gigs are with a 12" 5F1 or Champ II. They even take pedals well enough to kick out some great sounds. So far, the little tykes are holding their own. Full on power is gratifying and fun, but not practical for most situations. My channel switching Mesas soothe my needs for loud heavy gain otherwise. I think what we need is more outdoor jams somewhere out in the countryside. (Not a hint...or is it?) Another idea is to get together at a rental hall and have a blast. Of course that may require renting a suitable PA as well. We have enough members concentrated in some areas for this to be an option. Why wait for PSP? What Mesa(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yooper Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 50 minutes ago, ElNumero said: What Mesa(s)? I have a DC-5 for 50 some watt power and a 5:25 Express for 5 and 25 watts. Both very versatile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 15 hours ago, 212Mavguy said: What Steiner said...+1. I have a couple, nice ones. Weber Mass 100 watt with a full tone stack (volume treble mid bass on the line out), lots of bellls and whistles... and a handwired one of a kind Ultimate Attenuator from Mr. Ho in Canada. Of the two. the UA colors the sound the least. Cranking a loud amp and then attenuating down to a whisper does not change the fact that the amp's power section is still running cranked... this causes a lot more heat to be given off by the tubes and the parts in the power section. How the amp is built as far as the capacity of the chosen parts used has a correlation with how well it can endure that kind of treatment. A top end boutique amp with robust parts all across the board ls likely to tolerate that kind of thing MUUUUUUCH more than a Chinese PCB construction, many of those use parts of lower capacity than they should in order to hit price point. The best way to use an attenuator is to not overdo it. By that I mean that using it to reduce a slightly too loud volume setting is fine, but don't expect your dimed 18 to 200 watt beast choked down to a whisper to operate indefinitely without some kind of accelerated tube wear and overheating/early failure of amp circuit parts. Slightly rather than hugely attenuating an amp output also causes less effect on the amp's tone from the attenuating device. Amp geeks like to use upgraded master volume designs, or use controls to reduce the voltages inside the amp. London Power for instance has a product line designed to do just that. Bravo! 8 hours ago, Gitfiddler said: Not to derail this thread to far, but I have a question about attenuators. What's the difference between playing a low powered amp (e.g. 5, 15, 18 watt Champ, Princeton, Super Champ, etc.) at cranked volume compared to a medium-to-high powered amp cranked but attenuated? Wouldn't the wear and tear on the small amp be greater than an attenuated higher watt amp, due to the size/capacity of the tubes, tranny and other components? I ask this because I often run my smaller amps pretty hot when jamming at home. It's the difference between 6V6, EL84s and 6L6 (5881), EL34, KT66, KT88 strung with BIG IRON! I like the punch from a large amp (even a pushed 15W). That often results in shaking Mrs. Steiner's figurine collection off the mantle and the subsequent end of my joy. So, I either use a 4X12 for punch with an attenuator or take it outside - which, by the way Yooper, is currently a tad absent of thermal energy. I know, sissy trolls... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yooper Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 3 hours ago, Steiner said: So, I either use a 4X12 for punch with an attenuator or take it outside - which, by the way Yooper, is currently a tad absent of thermal energy. I know, sissy trolls... Shouldn't be a problem if we use all those hot tubes and sizzling jams to keep warm on the flatbed. Or we go with a hall rental until Spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
212Mavguy Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 7 hours ago, Gitfiddler said: Not to derail this thread to far, but I have a question about attenuators. What's the difference between playing a low powered amp (e.g. 5, 15, 18 watt Champ, Princeton, Super Champ, etc.) at cranked volume compared to a medium-to-high powered amp cranked but attenuated? Wouldn't the wear and tear on the small amp be greater than an attenuated higher watt amp, due to the size/capacity of the tubes, tranny and other components? I ask this because I often run my smaller amps pretty hot when jamming at home. Not much...the bigger amps might cost more to fix...and as far as the small amp's potential for greater wear and tear in the smaller sizes, think that it goes back to construction quality and what percentage of full output does either type/setup operate at. If your amp has a serial effects loop, there is a better way. Howard Alexander Dumble was all about using a tube effects loop buffer with his amps called the Dumbulator. Most of his builds were 100 watt or more, so the Dumbulator in the loop was his way. The overall volume of the host amp is controlled by the send and return knobs on the Dumbulator. Since it is inserted before the power section of the amp, the wear and tear on the power section is correlated by how loud the music is being played, just like an unattenuated amp. I have a Ceriatone C-lator, and it works great with the amps that have the same type of FX loop that Dumble's circuits have. I set the master up slightly or way above beyond what is required, and the C-lator becomes the new master volume control. It depends on how I want the amp to behave to touch as well as harmonic content in the tones. Having the master dimed or only slightly loud makes no difference in parts wear because a tiny signal into a dimed master volume can result in the same volume level as a stronger signal going into a lower master setting, what matters is the how strong the signal is when it leaves the power tubes. In either case, you get what you need without squandering excess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gitfiddler Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 10 hours ago, 212Mavguy said: Not much...the bigger amps might cost more to fix...and as far as the small amp's potential for greater wear and tear in the smaller sizes, think that it goes back to construction quality and what percentage of full output does either type/setup operate at. If your amp has a serial effects loop, there is a better way. Howard Alexander Dumble was all about using a tube effects loop buffer with his amps called the Dumbulator. Most of his builds were 100 watt or more, so the Dumbulator in the loop was his way. The overall volume of the host amp is controlled by the send and return knobs on the Dumbulator. Since it is inserted before the power section of the amp, the wear and tear on the power section is correlated by how loud the music is being played, just like an unattenuated amp. I have a Ceriatone C-lator, and it works great with the amps that have the same type of FX loop that Dumble's circuits have. I set the master up slightly or way above beyond what is required, and the C-lator becomes the new master volume control. It depends on how I want the amp to behave to touch as well as harmonic content in the tones. Having the master dimed or only slightly loud makes no difference in parts wear because a tiny signal into a dimed master volume can result in the same volume level as a stronger signal going into a lower master setting, what matters is the how strong the signal is when it leaves the power tubes. In either case, you get what you need without squandering excess. None of my Fender amps have an FX loop, but the Rivera-era amps do have Master Vol. and Vol. controls designed to push the amp's front end. If I recall, Blues Jr. amps have a similar (MV/V) set up. Based on your comments about FX loops I plan on experimenting with my Heritage Victory Head that does have an FX loop AND Master Vol./Vol. set up. That extra tonal versatility may be why it was one of Paul Cochrane's favorite builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 13 hours ago, Yooper said: Shouldn't be a problem if we use all those hot tubes and sizzling jams to keep warm on the flatbed. Or we go with a hall rental until Spring. Ah! A man with a plan. What say we break out a few big boys and go level that Silverdome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Gitfiddler said: None of my Fender amps have an FX loop, but the Rivera-era amps do have Master Vol. and Vol. controls designed to push the amp's front end. If I recall, Blues Jr. amps have a similar (MV/V) set up. Based on your comments about FX loops I plan on experimenting with my Heritage Victory Head that does have an FX loop AND Master Vol./Vol. set up. That extra tonal versatility may be why it was one of Paul Cochrane's favorite builds. Guit - in which amp did paul use the variable transformers he patented? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yooper Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Steiner said: Ah! A man with a plan. What say we break out a few big boys and go level that Silverdome! Someone beat us to it and tore the roof off the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 5 minutes ago, Yooper said: Someone beat us to it and tore the roof off the place. Last I heard, they had undetonated ordinances. I thought we could experiment and identify the sound pressure levels necessary to make them go boom! Just something to do on another blah Thursday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gitfiddler Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 25 minutes ago, Steiner said: Guit - in which amp did paul use the variable transformers he patented? I'm not aware of Paul's involvement with variable transformers while at Fender in the 80's, but in 2007 Fender developed one (called a trans impedance power attenuator) in the Princeton Recording Amp. https://www.guitarworld.com/gear/fender-princeton-recording-amp-combo Rivera did invent and patent his own Rock Crusher Attenuator. http://www.rivera.com/product/attenuators-cab-sims/rockcrusher-recording/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 15 minutes ago, Gitfiddler said: I'm not aware of Paul's involvement with variable transformers while at Fender in the 80's, but in 2007 Fender developed one (called a trans impedance power attenuator) in the Princeton Recording Amp. https://www.guitarworld.com/gear/fender-princeton-recording-amp-combo Rivera did invent and patent his own Rock Crusher Attenuator. http://www.rivera.com/product/attenuators-cab-sims/rockcrusher-recording/ Was Cochrane involved with Fender? You posted Paul's patent some time ago. He devised a way to vary the transformer output based on other factors. Pure genious! I thought he used his invention on some Heritage amps. On the surface, it appeared it would render attenuation unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gitfiddler Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Steiner said: Was Cochrane involved with Fender? You posted Paul's patent some time ago. He devised a way to vary the transformer output based on other factors. Pure genious! I thought he used his invention on some Heritage amps. On the surface, it appeared it would render attenuation unnecessary. I was referring to Paul Rivera, not Paul Cochrane. I'm not aware of any Heritage amps with attenuators. But they do have very high quality iron! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 In 2015 gitfiddler posted: For our more technically astute members, check out Paul Cochrane's amplifier selectable power supply Patent. https://www.google.com/patents/US7417502?hl=en&dq=ininventor:"Paul+Cochrane" Perhaps not attenuation. It seems it was more suited to getting the best, multiple, voices from 1 amp. Still genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gitfiddler Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 Ah, I do recall that post. At the time I was in touch with Mr. Cochrane by phone and email, inquiring about my Heritage Victory amp. What a great guy. It spurred me on to do more research about this quiet genius. Discovering the patent article was another confirmation of his incredible and varied talents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 Cobo - sorry about the hijack. I went back and watched your video. Nice chops! One suggestion for your tests; at each level of attenuation, tune the amp again; just as you would do if you had a static attenuator. Then record and compare. I'm interested. Thanks for doing this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElNumero Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 On 12/7/2017 at 11:54 AM, Yooper said: Someone beat us to it and tore the roof off the place. Damn, and I had tickets to a Govt Mule concert there next week... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
212Mavguy Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 Once again, +1, Kudos to Cobo for his more than skilled playing ability, for his exceptional taste in boutique amps and a great attenuator product, and for his willingness to labor and share helpful information with others. Tone King amp products are top tier quality items. MUCH RESPECT! Boutique amps for boutique guitars, Boutique guitars for boutique amps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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