Some very disturbing news from 225

[deytookerjaabs]

For the record, this ain't about ripping on PRS. I'm just pointing out firstly that **** happens with most mass (and small) builders, but secondly that I do expect different things from different guitar designs & build methods. 

[bolero]

well at least you went to the effort of backing up your claims!

I am surprised they had so many problems, if that is indeed the case

but like I said I am not terribly familiar with them

[CJTopes]

Back to disturbing news, I heard that they only fired 10 employees and then 4 quit because of it. Hats off to the four that quit to spite the corporation. It cant be easy to give your employer the middle finger and leave your livelihood. (if indeed that's what happened.)

[myoldfriend]

58 minutes ago, CJTopes said:

Back to disturbing news, I heard that they only fired 10 employees and then 4 quit because of it. Hats off to the four that quit to spite the corporation. It cant be easy to give your employer the middle finger and leave your livelihood. (if indeed that's what happened.)

Can't resist..

 

[DetroitBlues]

1 hour ago, CJTopes said:

Back to disturbing news, I heard that they only fired 10 employees and then 4 quit because of it. Hats off to the four that quit to spite the corporation. It cant be easy to give your employer the middle finger and leave your livelihood. (if indeed that's what happened.)

That's a tough decision to make.  But Kalamazoo is turning around economically and the talent they have, could mean another guitar company in the works.

If I had their finishing skills, I would do something like that on the side.

[Heritage1970]

20 minutes ago, DetroitBlues said:

That's a tough decision to make.  But Kalamazoo is turning around economically and the talent they have, could mean another guitar company in the works.

If I had their finishing skills, I would do something like that on the side.

That's what I'm hoping to hear happen soon. The terminated will group together and start their own guitar company. "The Real Heritage" or something alone those lines. Obviously they probably can't use "Heritage" anywhere in the name, but you get the picture. It happened once before in Kalamazoo.....

[ElNumero]

2 hours ago, CJTopes said:

Back to disturbing news, I heard that they only fired 10 employees and then 4 quit because of it. Hats off to the four that quit to spite the corporation. It cant be easy to give your employer the middle finger and leave your livelihood. (if indeed that's what happened.)

While I admire what Arnold did in support of his brothers and sisters. most people in this world still need to make a living somehow and despite this talk about starting up a new venture, which means $$ invested, I would not be surprised if Heritage management called Arnie and made him a very handsome offer to  come back to work for them. Its understandable why he quit, but I am sure he needs the money and Heritage definitely needs his expertise. I have seen this happen before in business so it would not be a first timer.

[kidsmoke]

1 hour ago, Heritage1970 said:

That's what I'm hoping to hear happen soon. The terminated will group together and start their own guitar company. "The Real Heritage" or something alone those lines. Obviously they probably can't use "Heritage" anywhere in the name, but you get the picture. It happened once before in Kalamazoo.....

it's happening per another thread and long time member here.

Ember Guitars. 

[ElNumero]

1 minute ago, kidsmoke said:

it's happening per another thread and long time member here.

Ember Guitars. 

Risen from the ashes? Great tag line...........

[kidsmoke]

wouldn't that be a phoenix? Ashes are spent embers...

the ember is the remnant of fire, which refuses to be extinguished, still hot, and dangerous, capable of starting a new rager...

 

 

 

[Kuz]

16 hours ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 

 

Before you call BS, why not use Google?

https://forums.prsguitars.com/threads/finish-peeling-off.21410/

https://forums.prsguitars.com/threads/is-fading-finishes-still-a-problem.22261/

http://forums.prsguitars.com/threads/prs-s2-cu24-warranty-covers-finish-issues.15542/

 

These are just finish related, I could go on with all sorts of other repairs/issues etc but searching is your friend as you can check some of the problems I mentioned. Funny some of the old threads I remember I checked for on the PRS forum have since been deleted. There was one about a whole batch of mis-aligned trems that was pretty funny/epic, once one guy noticed a certain standard gauge (.011's? iirc) wouldn't intonate the low E, a couple others with the same guitar made damn near the same month or two verified it. 

Well, I guess instead of relying on "internet forums" and "others' opinions", I base my opinions on my own experience.  It is just my opinion based on owning over 10 guitars from each company (Heritage, PRS, and Gibson).  If I believed everything and based all my decisions on the internet or "user reviews",  I wouldn't be able to own any guitar from any company.

I suggest others to do their own research (first hand) and make their own conclusions.

Just my .02

[deytookerjaabs]

14 minutes ago, Kuz said:

Well, I guess instead of relying on "internet forums" and "others' opinions", I base my opinions on my own experience.  It is just my opinion based on owning over 10 guitars from each company (Heritage, PRS, and Gibson).  If I believed everything and based all my decisions on the internet or "user reviews",  I wouldn't be able to own any guitar from any company.

I suggest others to do their own research (first hand) and make their own conclusions.

Just my .02

 

 

Well that's nice. I judge everyone I meet by the 10 other people I met who looked liked them too. 

 

 

[Millennium Maestro]

33 minutes ago, ElNumero said:

Risen from the ashes? Great tag line...........

Out of the "Fire" came Ember guitars!

[CJTopes]

Hell I may start saving up for one of those. 

[Steiner]

4 hours ago, kidsmoke said:

wouldn't that be a phoenix? Ashes are spent embers...

the ember is the remnant of fire, which refuses to be extinguished, still hot, and dangerous, capable of starting a new rager...

 

 

 

I was thing phoenix too.

Risen from the ashes.  Falls in line with the the old heritage!

[bluwoodsman]

Waited a bit to reply after hearing the initial news. 

I guess what I am seeing is a company that wanted to start using more CNC (machine) work and plek machines, and some employees insisting on total hand build production.  When the company changed hands and I heard they wanted to expand a bit this is exactly what I thought they would do--more reliance on machines. 

If it means better quality and guitars that need less work out of the box--but (the big question) still has hands on work involved--I'd probably be a bit more patient with the change and see how things come out.  Sad for the staff who left or were shown the door, but it does read like they had closed minds on the topic of inserting some mechanization.  Might help their cause to know more about the specific changes/plans they didn't like. 

The PRS discussion was interesting, but IMO a more direct analogy is G and L US guitars.   iA company carrying on some level of history/heritage, with hand work together with machine work-- and still producing  what are widely considered to be very good guitars that need little to no work to make playable right out of the case they are shipped in. 

 

 

[JeffB]

 300 wasted guitars. Thats a lot from a small manufacturer.

How long did it take to stock pile that many seconds?

 

 

[meng]

To clarify something:

Heritage has not bought a CNC machine, there is a lot of misinformation and speculation going around that CNC was the reason for manpower decisions. Since we reduced the planned number of guitars to be produced on a yearly basis it wouldn't actually be necessary for 2018's plan as it stands today - we would not be able to justify practically or financially such an investment for Heritage.

We have bought a PLEK machine, but this is a continuation of Heritage's longstanding relationship with PLEK as one of the very first manufacturers (if not the first) to utilise it. We still have the original Heritage PLEK machine and it was planned to go into the museum - it is unusable because of some damage sustained many years ago.

Please remember that 225 Parsons in recent years has never solely been occupied by Heritage - this may have been the source of confusion. It is true that another manufacturer will be taking up residency and doing woodwork in 225 Parsons and has bought a CNC machine which is scheduled to move in much later in the year. Could this help with certain processes in the future? Perhaps, but that's a whole different conversation and only if it made sense for Heritage and did not go against our core beliefs around craftsmanship.

If it was really the plan to replace people with machines, as some people are claiming - they would already be up and running...

[Spectrum13]

23 minutes ago, bluwoodsman said:

 

If it means better quality and guitars that need less work out of the box--but (the big question) still has hands on work involved--I'd probably be a bit more patient with the change and see how things come out.  Sad for the staff who left or were shown the door, but it does read like they had closed minds on the topic of inserting some mechanization. 

 

Blu,

  My interpretation there are two definitions of QUALITY. 

One would be perfect setups, nuts, cosmetics, lack of file marks, flawless bindings and finish. Thus the perception of quality as being a flawless build. This product would probably be easier to sell for a retailer with picky customers. Build it with CNC and modern factory practices would require less labor and result in less jams or mistakes. Marv describes when a worker without the hand ,wrist strength and hand coordination slips and puts a chip in the body. Eliminate these. I believe this as the direction Heritage might be heading. 

Second definition would be acceptance that the old school methods of handmade are what makes a great guitar. "a professional can tell by the feel and sound " as Ren states in this article. 

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Builder_Profile_Heritage_Guitar

Many members are ok with breaking in a brand new Heritage.  Having a personal setup, replacing parts deemed to be inferior (pots, caps, bridges and tuners) and accept this as worth the time and expense as it results is superior quality instrument. A player at a retailer who is unfamiliar with the brand may not be impressed with that  high cut nut resulting in poor action or see a couple of finish flaws and move on.

 My thoughts that both sides can be correct here.

 

 

 

[Polo]

57 minutes ago, JeffB said:

 300 wasted guitars. Thats a lot from a small manufacturer.

How long did it take to stock pile that many seconds?

 

 

 

I've heard from a reliable source that the "300 wasted guitars" were in reality closer to "100 wasted guitars", Supposedly, only about 20 of those guitars were finished product with the rest being white wood that were in various stages of the build process.

Who knows, It's getting harder to tell what's true, what's rumor and what's damage control at this point.

[deytookerjaabs]

 

Well, that is confusing. Somewhere it was stated that CNC's were being brought in and it was also stated that production of Heritage would not be moving back to the original factory, funky?

 

 

 

Aside from that...

I don't like the "perfect setup" jargon, it's such a shallow way to judge instruments (no pun intended). There is no ideal/international setup guideline. Different manufacturers specify different setups intentionally. The setup and when the string buzz's is a marriage of tolerances, it doesn't take a particle physicist to see the harder you hack the string the wider it shakes. Thus, the Ibanez JEM factory specification is different from the Gibson 335 based mostly based on assumption of the players technique at large. Beyond that, wood moves, some designs more than others depending on the headstock angle & neck thickness & construction etc. 

All my nuts I cut for me are darn near "zero fret" specs as I don't attack too hard for the most part but if I put that guitar in the cold closet and take it out the next morning it buzzes! "Unacceptable Quality Control Deytookerjaabs!!!" 

Every US manufacturer I know of either uses a Plek, or they straighten the truss rod for a factory 20+ inch hand leveling. I'm sorry to some who insist otherwise but those levels don't have massive dents and those Pleks are crazy consistent. "But Muh Guitar had high spots!!!" 

Once they ship it out, anything can happen. Comparing a G&L to a Gibson is just plain silly. One with a totally flat bi-cut maple neck and the other with a 17 degree headstock over mahogany? Obviously one design is going to need more adjustment as the string tension causes the wood to settle. 

It's nice that those guys who found their "perfect setup" in Brand A are now on one manufacturers bandwagon but it doesn't mean Brand B is "doing it all wrong" simply because those guys are absolutists with no known cure for that horrible disease. 

Meanwhile, certain pig headed techs (often calling themselves luthiers) love to use that same absolutist rhetoric to tell their customers how much they need their tech because all those factory guitars they bring in "are all wrong." Personally, I've seen very few instances where once the the relief is to spec the guitar doesn't match the manufacturers specs along with having a decent plane to the frets.....but you can always improve ANY factory setup to suit the picker. 

[ironmike]

46 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 

Well, that is confusing. Somewhere it was stated that CNC's were being brought in and it was also stated that production of Heritage would not be moving back to the original factory, funky?

 

 

 

Aside from that...

I don't like the "perfect setup" jargon, it's such a shallow way to judge instruments (no pun intended). There is no ideal/international setup guideline. Different manufacturers specify different setups intentionally. The setup and when the string buzz's is a marriage of tolerances, it doesn't take a particle physicist to see the harder you hack the string the wider it shakes. Thus, the Ibanez JEM factory specification is different from the Gibson 335 based mostly based on assumption of the players technique at large. Beyond that, wood moves, some designs more than others depending on the headstock angle & neck thickness & construction etc. 

All my nuts I cut for me are darn near "zero fret" specs as I don't attack too hard for the most part but if I put that guitar in the cold closet and take it out the next morning it buzzes! "Unacceptable Quality Control Deytookerjaabs!!!" 

Every US manufacturer I know of either uses a Plek, or they straighten the truss rod for a factory 20+ inch hand leveling. I'm sorry to some who insist otherwise but those levels don't have massive dents and those Pleks are crazy consistent. "But Muh Guitar had high spots!!!" 

Once they ship it out, anything can happen. Comparing a G&L to a Gibson is just plain silly. One with a totally flat bi-cut maple neck and the other with a 17 degree headstock over mahogany? Obviously one design is going to need more adjustment as the string tension causes the wood to settle. 

It's nice that those guys who found their "perfect setup" in Brand A are now on one manufacturers bandwagon but it doesn't mean Brand B is "doing it all wrong" simply because those guys are absolutists with no known cure for that horrible disease. 

Meanwhile, certain pig headed techs (often calling themselves luthiers) love to use that same absolutist rhetoric to tell their customers how much they need their tech because all those factory guitars they bring in "are all wrong." Personally, I've seen very few instances where once the the relief is to spec the guitar doesn't match the manufacturers specs along with having a decent plane to the frets.....but you can always improve ANY factory setup to suit the picker. 

Quite true,cnc is a great thing accually,its a about wood selection,cut,fit anf finish..Simple really..cnc can and does improve quality in every way..Anyone who ran a eoid duplicating machine knows that..A rattling parallelogram can work for a poor man but a cnc duplicator will make him a better man

 

[ironmike]

I don't believe there can be a good source..For any of this...Know this...Money talks and bullshit walks no matter where you are..

[kidsmoke]

except that we know that there are no cnc machines at Heritage and one of the owners is on record on this forum in the last couple of hours saying there isn't a plan for CNC so WHY THE F*** ARE WE TALKING about CNC? Seriously.

While this doesn't LITERALLY apply due to the medium in play here, the wisdom of this nugget translates, IMHO:

we were given two ears, and one mouth. use them in proportion.  

[deytookerjaabs]

Heliski said he understands management is trying to institute changes that will improve production and quality.

"I understand that there is a bottom line," he said.

But Heliski said the people installed to oversee production changes don't know anything about making guitars and don't listen to people who do.

"They're not really builders," Heliski said. "They inspect and make sure there are no flaws."

That has led to mistakes that were blamed on workers, some of whom were not properly trained in guitar finishing, he said. He estimated that 300 guitars have had to be discarded over the past nine months as a result of mistakes that were made.

Heliski specializes in hand-crafting necks for guitars. He said he has been a guitar maker and repairer for about 37 years and learned much of what he knows from Heritage co-founder Marvin Lamb and his colleague luthiers.

He said workers are willing to make changes to improve quality, but insist there's no way to hand-craft guitars without minor flaws.

Heliski said managers are setting up to use CNC (Computer Numerical Control) machines to do wood-cutting and some of the crafting work that workers have always done by hand. Under those circumstances, he said it is a misstatement to promote the company as one that continues a tradition of hand-craftsmanship.

 

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2018/02/changes_at_heritage_guitar_sou.html

 

That's at least one source of the confusion, as per CNC this former employees verbiage was "setting up to use."