PacerX Posted April 2, 2018 Posted April 2, 2018 On 3/25/2018 at 6:34 PM, ElNumero said: So, if they can put out an even better product that what I have owned, more power to them. That's the entire point, right there. Let the CNC mill do the dimensionally critical stuff - putting the bridge mounting holes in the right place, getting the nut mounting surfaces right, etc... Profiling the neck can be automated. Necks should be profiled MULTIPLE times, the neck is partially profiled and then allowed to "relax" for a few days, then it is profiled further, then allowed to "relax" some more, and then profiled for a final time. Top-flight manufacturers take 3 times as long to build a neck as a body. Doing that frees the craftsmen up to do the things that still need to be done by hand... like... 1) PRS CNC's the neck pocket and neck tenon, but tenons still require some hand fitting. Even a company as rabidly devoted to quality and automation as PRS recognizes that certain things are better done by hand. 2) Binding HAS TO be done by hand. 3) All of the finishing steps, at every manufacturer, are by hand. 4) Fretboard radiusing and cutting fret slots is all done in fixtures (by everyone, including Heritage), but frets are still seated, trimmed, and dressed by hand. Etc... Again, it's NOT about getting rid of labor. It's about using the right tool for the right job and putting the labor where it can do the most good. That sounds like the plan, and I'm 100% on board with it. There's a 535 or something similar in my future, and I don't want another one I have to monkey with. I want it right, the first time, no excuses.
unikh550 Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 All I know is I bought, in 1997, an H-550 for $1,500 that was uniquely custom, by my request: 1. No pickguard 2. No fretboard inlay 3. Golden Classic fretboard and neck 4. No pickups 5. No volume or tone knobs. They gave me the flamiest H-550 I've ever seen! I had a Gibson Charlie Christian pickup routed in, ordered bowtie inlays from Gibson, and did other things I thought would 'improve' it. When I decided to replace the clown burst with something more traditional, Marv Lamb laughed when he held it, and said they always wondered who bought the guitar that was, essentially, a shell. When he and another big dog demurred at taking the Christian out and putting it back in after refinish, citing possible top damage, they called Pete Moreno while I was waiting there. Pete finished it in a sort of cross between burnt amber and dark almond burst, for just $600, and he even fixed some internal cracks around the plug hole, for no charge! These are special people, and I really hope that they form a new company. I will definitely buy a guitar built by these fired employees.- Charles Bevell Bloomington, IN
High Flying Bird Posted April 13, 2018 Posted April 13, 2018 On 4/9/2018 at 11:36 PM, unikh550 said: ... Marv Lamb laughed when he held it, and said they always wondered who bought the guitar that was, essentially, a shell. When he and another big dog demurred at taking the Christian out and putting it back in after refinish, citing possible top damage, they called Pete Moreno while I was waiting there. These are special people, ... Yep.
RJLII Posted April 13, 2018 Posted April 13, 2018 On 4/10/2018 at 12:36 AM, unikh550 said: All I know is I bought, in 1997, an H-550 for $1,500 that was uniquely custom, by my request: 1. No pickguard 2. No fretboard inlay 3. Golden Classic fretboard and neck 4. No pickups 5. No volume or tone knobs. They gave me the flamiest H-550 I've ever seen! I had a Gibson Charlie Christian pickup routed in, ordered bowtie inlays from Gibson, and did other things I thought would 'improve' it. When I decided to replace the clown burst with something more traditional, Marv Lamb laughed when he held it, and said they always wondered who bought the guitar that was, essentially, a shell. When he and another big dog demurred at taking the Christian out and putting it back in after refinish, citing possible top damage, they called Pete Moreno while I was waiting there. Pete finished it in a sort of cross between burnt amber and dark almond burst, for just $600, and he even fixed some internal cracks around the plug hole, for no charge! These are special people, and I really hope that they form a new company. I will definitely buy a guitar built by these fired employees.- Charles Bevell Bloomington, IN Must post photos!
Vincelewis Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 On 3/3/2018 at 11:28 PM, High Flying Bird said: I understand that Pete came and went a few times over the years. I have never met him. I have seen him once or twice, maybe around 2014 - 2016. loved being there in 2010 and 2011
yoslate Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 30 minutes ago, Vincelewis said: loved being there in 2010 and 2011 And a treat to meet you and listen to you play, Vince (you used my amp one of those years)! That was a highlight of the eight or so I've attended. Hope you and your charming wife are well and enjoying good health! Best wishes! Rob
bolero Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 +1 was amazing to hear you play at the barn, that one year. fantastic!! hope things are well
Steiner Posted April 23, 2018 Posted April 23, 2018 18 hours ago, Vincelewis said: loved being there in 2010 and 2011 We truly appreciate what you have done for the HOC!
Hfan Posted May 19, 2018 Posted May 19, 2018 I remember Vince from 2012 or so, super nice guy, super talented to say the least. Very friendly too. He offered me a whirl with whatever beautiful jazz box he had that day but I said no, partly due to being afraid of dinging it, partly due to feeling not worthy and also being afraid I would find new GAS I didn't need. And thanks Vince for all those great arrangements you provided. I've studied a few and have saved others for one day when I have more time. Hope you're well.
pressure Posted May 19, 2018 Posted May 19, 2018 Don't worry about not being worthy. If i was worried about not being worthy I never would have; Gotten married, had children, bought a house, become a world class graphic artist, helped my best friend (since grammar school) through therapy after his leg was amputated, played guitar... Don't worry, be happy and just DO IT! PS. I also am grateful to Mr. Vince Lewis, he has been a great member here.
JamHandy Posted October 10, 2018 Posted October 10, 2018 I'll have to say, the re-post of Jay Wolfe's FB post about the reality of quality going down the tubes and long time employees refusing to change marks a spark in me... been there, done that, and I've been in both white collar and blue collar jobs where resistance to change is bad for the company, bad for business, and bad for job seciurity for all. Thanks for posting Jay's reply. I live in Florida, I've never been to his shop, but now it would be worth the drive from north of Jacksonville to see his guitars. NE Florida is dead as far as anything music-wise goes. Jacksonville has 2 Guitar Center stores and they both suck as far as what stock they carry... Reading some of the posts here, I think what I have gathered from all this is... Heritage was formed when Gibson gave the nose to the thumb to their Kalamazoo employees and moved to Nashville... Now the same company, Heritage, is giving a thumb to the nose of their long term employees who live in Kalamazoo... LOL... I don't know if that is irony or what its called... If I were to put in my 2 cents, I can't really afford a Heritage guitar at $2,000+ price tag. My challenge to Heritage is this... just because a guitar costs less, doesn't mean it is of lesser quality. And the same the other direction... just because a guitar costs $2,000+ doesn't mean its going to be anything special, but we expect it would be more than we would expect guitars at $500-$1000 to be spectacular finds. So, Heritage... learn a lesson from the rest of the industry who has learned to reach the working man's income bracket. IMHO< only doctors, lawyers, and folks who are willing to run up their credit cards can afford to buy your guitars. So... I'd love to go into a shop and find something with the Heritage name on it that blows away ALL of the other brands in the $500-$1000 bracket. I would be proud to own one of those. Gibson has it's Epiphones (and Studios), Fender has its Squires and Mexi-Strats, even Paul saw the light and created his PRS SE models (and the S2 lines...), and the McClarens are simply kicking ass with their Tribute G&L line.. Just because a guitar is affordable to all the rest of the people on the planet, doesn't mean it is crap. In fact, all of the PRS SE models I have ever played were fantastic guitars. And used the SE's are like $300-$500, priced where working folks can afford to buy them. AND BUY MORE THAN ONE!! I suppose you can keep offering guitars to the ultra rich top 5% of the employed world (or folks going into debt on their VISA cards), but you're missing a HUGE market share of folks that could be loving your brand. You can continue to focus on the rich and elitists as your clientele, or you can open your eyes and use what other companies have done as an example to grab a larger market share, and increase revenues. Go ahead, Heritage, make my day. I dare you to make an affordable guitar for the working man. $1,000 new or less. All of your competition have already proven it can be done, and done in a way that the models they release are simply bad to the bone, namely the PRS SE's and the G&L Tributes... (I won't throw all Epiphones and Mexi-Strats and Squires in the same mix, you folks can do better than any of that)... Its sad when folks lose their job, or when they see a fellow worker get canned, they revolt and quit too... but that's life in the business world. Businesses are run like businesses are run if you are going to succeed beyond a certain point. If you want to live in some type of Utopian Fantasyland where you can ignore most of the guitar-buying public (i.e. what I call "the working man" who cannot afford your guitars at present), then reality will come crashing down hard on you. The world operates as the world operates. You can't reinvent the wheel, or pretend to be successful because all of your stuff is priced way beyond what most people can afford. Price does not equate necessarily to quality. Nor does a story about being the left-overs of a former legendary company. Personally, I want to hear more about you as a company than I do about Gibson. Tell me why I need to buy your product, and leave out the part about "because we used to work for Gibson." I really don't like having to explain to people that you are former Gibson employees. Sort of like when I have to explain to people that the "L" of G&L was Leo Fender. G&L just simply makes the best Fender-style guitars on the planet these days. I run to them long before looking at any Fender-made things. Their products are just rock solid and I've owned over 20 G&L guitars in my lifetime. Because of the preventative prices, I can't say that I have been able to buy even one Heritage anything, so I couldn't personally say they make the best Gibson-style guitars on the planet, at least not from personal experience. Jay Wolfe in Jupiter, FL seems to think highly of Heritage. A lot of people here speak highly of your brand. I think you have the potential to blow away all of the other guitar makers on the planet, even my beloved G&L brand. So, go ahead, Heritage... make my day... make a guitar the working man can afford, so that I'll stop buying all these other brands... I grew up in Michigan... so I'm a Michigan boy at heart. And when you start making guitars I can afford, I'll be your next new loyal buying customer. I'm just waiting for you to figure out how to do that better than all the rest of the guitar makers who now produce worker-friendly sub-$1,000 guitars. It is humanly possible... why is it not possible from the most awesome guitar manufacturer on the planet... Heritage Guitars?
HANGAR18 Posted October 10, 2018 Posted October 10, 2018 4 hours ago, JamHandy said: So, go ahead, Heritage... make my day... make a guitar the working man can afford, so that I'll stop buying all these other brands... I grew up in Michigan... so I'm a Michigan boy at heart. And when you start making guitars I can afford, I'll be your next new loyal buying customer. I'm just waiting for you to figure out how to do that better than all the rest of the guitar makers who now produce worker-friendly sub-$1,000 guitars. It is humanly possible... why is it not possible from the most awesome guitar manufacturer on the planet... Heritage Guitars? Heritage guitar never made a profit their first 30 years. I suspect that was because the founders had a retirement income from Gibson to live off of, thus, that qualifies Heritage as having been just a hobby for them. They only worked 4 days a week and spent a lot of time hunting and made only 4 guitars a day on their best days. People who live in Michigan have to get paid what people in Michigan USA expect to be paid in order to buy food, clothing, shelter and so on, just like everyone else. Therefore, when a guitar takes as long to build as it was taking the people at Heritage to build a guitar, it drives up the cost of the guitar. That is simple business 101. You mentioned PRS's affordable guitars under $1000.00. They are made overseas where both the cost of living and the wages are a lot less than here in the USA. It has been said that PRS could not survive without their imported SE line of guitars. I agree that they are exceptionally well made. But there is the problem. Heritage won't make an overseas version, which is good because the market is already saturated with imported guitars. (Besides, it would be embarrassing for a USA brand of guitars to have their import line have better quality than their American made line and that is exactly what would happen if they went that route right now.) So the challenge for Heritage is to figure out a way to make high quality guitars as inexpensively as possible. That means as fast and efficiently as possible. Translation, they have to compete against other manufacturers who are using CnC machines to lower production costs. If you figure out a way for them to do what you are challenging them to do, let them know. I'm sure they'd like to hear it.
southhouse Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 21 hours ago, HANGAR18 said: They only worked 4 days a week and spent a lot of time hunting and made only 4 guitars a day on their best days My guitars serial number ends in 06 which, if I understand correctly, means it was the 6th guitar produced on that particular day. I’m fairly certain I’ve seen other guitars with the last 2 digits of their serial numbers being in the teens. If they could only produce 4 guitars on their best days, as you say, would you please explain why the serial numbers say otherwise? Thanks!
Polo Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 2 hours ago, southhouse said: My guitars serial number ends in 06 which, if I understand correctly, means it was the 6th guitar produced on that particular day. I’m fairly certain I’ve seen other guitars with the last 2 digits of their serial numbers being in the teens. If they could only produce 4 guitars on their best days, as you say, would you please explain why the serial numbers say otherwise? Thanks!
TalismanRich Posted October 11, 2018 Posted October 11, 2018 Over the years, I've heard numbers thrown around of from around 1500 to around 800 guitars produced per year. In the later years, when the lower numbers were produced, they were working 4 day weeks. Considering the typical 250 work day year, 1500 per year would be around 6 guitars a day being finished. More recent would have been around 4 per day. Of course, if they don't assign numbers on Tuesday, they could have a bunch on Wednesday. A lot of the guitars that they were building were not solid bodies, either. It takes a lot of time to build an archtop vs an H-137. I have only seen one duplicarver on the shop floor, so that's a bit of a limiting factor in carving tops. Its not like setting up 6 body blanks in a CNC and having them pop out 20 minutes later. Typical big companies (Martin, Taylor, Fender, Gibson) are churning out 60-100,000 guitars per year. The problem with Gibson and Fender is that as privately owned companies, they don't have to disclose sales figures. However it appears that the typical daily output is 200-400/day. That's more in a week than Heritage does in a year. That's pretty typical of a small builder. Someone like Collings or Heritage will put out 10 or 20 guitars a week. Single builders will be even lower. Gerard Melancon puts out 2-4 per week. I'm sure you'll find the same from folks like Grosh, Lentz, LSL, McInturff or Nash. In any case, I don't think Heritage is really interested in the $1000 and under market, any more than Collings or Suhr or Anderson. That market is saturated with Mexican, Korean, Chinese and Indonesian guitars. On 10/10/2018 at 1:09 AM, JamHandy said: So, go ahead, Heritage... make my day... make a guitar the working man can afford, so that I'll stop buying all these other brands... I grew up in Michigan... so I'm a Michigan boy at heart. And when you start making guitars I can afford, I'll be your next new loyal buying customer. I'm just waiting for you to figure out how to do that better than all the rest of the guitar makers who now produce worker-friendly sub-$1,000 guitars. It is humanly possible... why is it not possible from the most awesome guitar manufacturer on the planet... Heritage Guitars? 5 hours ago, southhouse said: My guitars serial number ends in 06 which, if I understand correctly, means it was the 6th guitar produced on that particular day. I’m fairly certain I’ve seen other guitars with the last 2 digits of their serial numbers being in the teens. If they could only produce 4 guitars on their best days, as you say, would you please explain why the serial numbers say otherwise? Thanks!
southhouse Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 TalismanRich, I think I asked a legitimate question and I appreciate you taking the time to break down the numbers and posting your answer. Thanks
ElNumero Posted October 12, 2018 Author Posted October 12, 2018 On 10/10/2018 at 1:09 AM, JamHandy said: I'll have to say, the re-post of Jay Wolfe's FB post about the reality of quality going down the tubes and long time employees refusing to change marks a spark in me... been there, done that, and I've been in both white collar and blue collar jobs where resistance to change is bad for the company, bad for business, and bad for job seciurity for all. Thanks for posting Jay's reply. I live in Florida, I've never been to his shop, but now it would be worth the drive from north of Jacksonville to see his guitars. NE Florida is dead as far as anything music-wise goes. Jacksonville has 2 Guitar Center stores and they both suck as far as what stock they carry... Reading some of the posts here, I think what I have gathered from all this is... Heritage was formed when Gibson gave the nose to the thumb to their Kalamazoo employees and moved to Nashville... Now the same company, Heritage, is giving a thumb to the nose of their long term employees who live in Kalamazoo... LOL... I don't know if that is irony or what its called... If I were to put in my 2 cents, I can't really afford a Heritage guitar at $2,000+ price tag. My challenge to Heritage is this... just because a guitar costs less, doesn't mean it is of lesser quality. And the same the other direction... just because a guitar costs $2,000+ doesn't mean its going to be anything special, but we expect it would be more than we would expect guitars at $500-$1000 to be spectacular finds. So, Heritage... learn a lesson from the rest of the industry who has learned to reach the working man's income bracket. IMHO< only doctors, lawyers, and folks who are willing to run up their credit cards can afford to buy your guitars. So... I'd love to go into a shop and find something with the Heritage name on it that blows away ALL of the other brands in the $500-$1000 bracket. I would be proud to own one of those. Gibson has it's Epiphones (and Studios), Fender has its Squires and Mexi-Strats, even Paul saw the light and created his PRS SE models (and the S2 lines...), and the McClarens are simply kicking ass with their Tribute G&L line.. Just because a guitar is affordable to all the rest of the people on the planet, doesn't mean it is crap. In fact, all of the PRS SE models I have ever played were fantastic guitars. And used the SE's are like $300-$500, priced where working folks can afford to buy them. AND BUY MORE THAN ONE!! I suppose you can keep offering guitars to the ultra rich top 5% of the employed world (or folks going into debt on their VISA cards), but you're missing a HUGE market share of folks that could be loving your brand. You can continue to focus on the rich and elitists as your clientele, or you can open your eyes and use what other companies have done as an example to grab a larger market share, and increase revenues. Go ahead, Heritage, make my day. I dare you to make an affordable guitar for the working man. $1,000 new or less. All of your competition have already proven it can be done, and done in a way that the models they release are simply bad to the bone, namely the PRS SE's and the G&L Tributes... (I won't throw all Epiphones and Mexi-Strats and Squires in the same mix, you folks can do better than any of that)... Its sad when folks lose their job, or when they see a fellow worker get canned, they revolt and quit too... but that's life in the business world. Businesses are run like businesses are run if you are going to succeed beyond a certain point. If you want to live in some type of Utopian Fantasyland where you can ignore most of the guitar-buying public (i.e. what I call "the working man" who cannot afford your guitars at present), then reality will come crashing down hard on you. The world operates as the world operates. You can't reinvent the wheel, or pretend to be successful because all of your stuff is priced way beyond what most people can afford. Price does not equate necessarily to quality. Nor does a story about being the left-overs of a former legendary company. Personally, I want to hear more about you as a company than I do about Gibson. Tell me why I need to buy your product, and leave out the part about "because we used to work for Gibson." I really don't like having to explain to people that you are former Gibson employees. Sort of like when I have to explain to people that the "L" of G&L was Leo Fender. G&L just simply makes the best Fender-style guitars on the planet these days. I run to them long before looking at any Fender-made things. Their products are just rock solid and I've owned over 20 G&L guitars in my lifetime. Because of the preventative prices, I can't say that I have been able to buy even one Heritage anything, so I couldn't personally say they make the best Gibson-style guitars on the planet, at least not from personal experience. Jay Wolfe in Jupiter, FL seems to think highly of Heritage. A lot of people here speak highly of your brand. I think you have the potential to blow away all of the other guitar makers on the planet, even my beloved G&L brand. So, go ahead, Heritage... make my day... make a guitar the working man can afford, so that I'll stop buying all these other brands... I grew up in Michigan... so I'm a Michigan boy at heart. And when you start making guitars I can afford, I'll be your next new loyal buying customer. I'm just waiting for you to figure out how to do that better than all the rest of the guitar makers who now produce worker-friendly sub-$1,000 guitars. It is humanly possible... why is it not possible from the most awesome guitar manufacturer on the planet... Heritage Guitars? Preventative prices? So you are saying they are not worth the money they charge? May be preventative for you, but not for the thousands of happy customers who have bought and ordered custom shop Heritage guitars, many of whom have been on this forum for years. Save your money. Or get a second job....
jaywolfe Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 On 10/11/2018 at 10:08 AM, TalismanRich said: In any case, I don't think Heritage is really interested in the $1000 and under market, any more than Collings or Suhr or Anderson. That market is saturated with Mexican, Korean, Chinese and Indonesian guitars. FYI guys- I stock and proudly sell CMG Guitars from Statesboro, Georgia that retail for $799 sans case nor inlays. Set neck & bolt-on models. With case & inlays they're about 1k. They are well made and play & sound great- all USA made. They're really nice folks and flexible with custom spec builds. We also sell PRS's USA made S2 models from $999 with dots & padded gig bag. ALSO had another sit down with the Heritage Marketing team yesterday and they have listened to us all and are lowering the prices on their soon to be available Harmony geetars- made at 225 parsons, Nitro finish, Mono gig bag, in-house made pickups, etc. Don't see them coming in sub 1k (which I suggested) but they're making them now. I requested model mix & prices.
Gitfiddler Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 Jay~ Thanks for the update. Will there be a visible Heritage marketing connection with the Harmony guitars? An example is how some Epiphone models also have a Gibson moniker. Just for fun, here are my two '60's era Harmony Stratotone H47's. The two pickup git was modded way back in the day by a dumb teenager......me.
HANGAR18 Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 6 hours ago, jaywolfe said: Marketing team yesterday and they have listened to us all and are lowering the prices on their soon to be available Harmony geetars- made at 225 parsons, Nitro finish, Mono gig bag, in-house made pickups, etc. Don't see them coming in sub 1k (which I suggested) but they're making them now. I requested model mix & prices. Nevermind that i just threw up in my mouth but from a business standpoint, that may be their lifeline the same way Epiphone is for Gibson and the SE models are for PRS.
Buckyrock Posted October 14, 2018 Posted October 14, 2018 "Harmony geetars" - I don't get it. Always seemed like a budget (i.e. junky) instrument to me. Maybe I never played a good one? New ones will cost $1,000+, and I see used ones for $50-$400 (with a few exceptions) on eBay. I have no idea why Heritage would start making these. Not for me. And if Heritages aren't being made at 225 Parsons Street (and it sounds like they aren't), well I don't understand that either. Not for me.
pressure Posted October 14, 2018 Posted October 14, 2018 Heritage guitars are still made at 225 Parsons St. Harmony guitars are not made by Heritage, Harmony are another company.
deytookerjaabs Posted October 14, 2018 Posted October 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, pressure said: Heritage guitars are still made at 225 Parsons St. Harmony guitars are not made by Heritage, Harmony are another company. If I understood correctly, Heritage guitars are made at the lot of 225 parsons in one of the 60's expansion buildings? But, not the 1917 iconic pre-war location. Is that right?
HANGAR18 Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 5 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said: If I understood correctly, Heritage guitars are made at the lot of 225 parsons in one of the 60's expansion buildings? But, not the 1917 iconic pre-war location. Is that right? That is the impression that I am under. I think the whole block is 225 Parson Street.
Buckyrock Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 I stand corrected on the address - although I'm confused by this statement from Heritage: "Our current public entrance to the building is at 1100 N. Edwards St on the west side of our building. This is where everyone should enter the building, as other entrances are closed.". Doesn't sound like 225 Parsons Street to me - that's not the entrance I've used in the past. My opinion, anyway. Harmony *may* be a different company on paper, but it sounds to me that some resources are shared (ownership, buildings). I would have liked the team focused on just Heritage. Even if by "team" it refers to only one guy at the top. My opinion, anyway.
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