Change at Heritage Guitar

[ThroBak]

From what I can tell Heritage is committed to a lean manufacturing model which is really what they need. Letting people go sucks, but it is probably part of the growing pains that go along with a change to a lean manufacturing culture. Lean manufacturing leads to better quality, faster order fulfilment, and increased profit margins and ultimately more stable pricing for customers and stability for employees. Lean practices are the first thing I noticed when they moved to the new space. Everything was labeled, a new spray booth with a drying room, efficient work spaces... Heritage is now concentrating on their core products and by getting those processes lean, efficient and of the highest quality it will have a big impact on the bottom line.

The idea of lean manufacturing is constant improvement of every aspect of the business while improving the value to the customer. The goal is to have all employees paying daily attention to what can be improved to increase efficiency, improve quality and reduce waste. The strange thing about making a commitment to lean manufacturing is some employees will find it personally rewarding to challenge themselves to improve daily. They may suggest innovations for jigs and will time and test routines to improve efficiency. These employees see it as working smarter not harder. Others will find lean principles to be a personal attack or a slap in the face to their pride of workmanship and see it as management piling on more work with a level of control that sucks the fun out of the job. These employees can become extremely resistant and never be able to make the change to lean manufacturing. Given a leaner product offering and leaner, more efficient processes as well as possible resistance to change, my guess is this reduction the number of employees will ultimately lead to a Heritage that is more stable and meets the highest standard of quality at the best possible price.

I can tell you from my own personal experience with ThroBak that even though we are a small boutique shop, lean manufacturing principles are key to how we make pickups and pedals. Our pickups are customized to each client and lean principles like one piece flow are just one aspect of lean manufacturing that helps us ship custom orders quickly and at the highest quality.

[StephenK]

All good things have to come to an end. I sensed it two years ago with the last HOC get together in the old factory. So glad my daughter got to see and breath it. She loved re meeting the old gang. Her last visit there was in 1997 on my shoulders. I have been visiting heritage since 1993 . Last year's get together was corporate and sterile. I too was downsized when I was 52 not only does it create a financial hardships it does something to you mentally. You are all in my prayers.. so glad we where part of the golden years at Heritage. Hope we can get together this year party, tell tall tales, laugh and enjoy friendship our way. Peace 

[StephenK]

Throbak, lean takes the personality out of the instrument. They can get super lean, efficient and improve quality by adding a CNC. I think we'll see that in the next few years too.

[Millennium Maestro]

To the core  "I am a Rebel" by nature, brutally honest and hardcore in my devotions. I became a Dealer out of respect for the Golden Era Owners, Real men that treated employees and associates with respect and honor.       My business model does not include molding myself to fit under  a corporate structure, my beliefs will not allow me to let someone "Puppet Master" me and pull my strings.

I will no longer be spending $20-30k yearly with Heritage... Regretfully.  No matter how much I want to help the Golden Era team!   I do business with people like myself and  2 Years of hopes was enough for me!

BEAN COUNTERS CAN BUY A BRAND NAME... THEY CAN'T BUY ME!  Jay is right, guitars are better, the promise of "The Best" guitars is a necessity to capturing world class dealers.  Jay is also very tight lipped on some stuff too because "Big Brother is Watching" . 

I suspect there are many business associates like myself that have remained loyal out of respect and honor of the "Golden Era Team", The general population does not know how close to Brand implosion the Golden Team was when initially purchased by Plaza and Plaza earned a ton of respect for saving a brand that is near and dear to my heart!

  However, I found it hard dealing with an entity with zero musician experience, that was entirely out of their element, trying to impose business models with a total lack of concern for their models effected the associates that supported their products.  Now there is a new 49% owner that has zero respect for the loyal associates that blindly supported the brand and have a total devotion to the product...

MENG:  You now own a brand and are responding to end users and people that believe in that brand...  I believe you want the 'Best Brand" you can deliver... It is now time for you to step up, you will personally be held responsible for your words and promises.
   Bandlab Heritage IS a byproduct of nearly 33 years of history that you have inherited, Heritage has an earned reputation and that reputation is NOT Gibson 2.0 no matter who you hire! If you want to be "THE BIG DOG" you will have to earn that reputation through your products, associate support, end user appreciation, artist support and your own "History of Earned" respect.   Your words are a hollow vessel with a shiny exterior... but is there any substance really inside, you will have to prove you are "The Big Dog" and it will not happen overnight.

You are in a very distinctive position, a cross roads of sorts... You either have to become what you say you want to become or forever be labeled "Henry J 2.0", I hope I m wrong in whom you've hired and placed your trust.
In short! I HOPE YOU CAN EARN MY RESPECT!  I am routing for you.

PS. There is nothing wrong with "The Heritage" product, maybe you should try NOT to be Gibson, PRS, Collings or any other manufacturer.  The Heritage IS enough for me....

PSS.  Do you really think direct sales to the End User is part of the solution in the USA.

PSSS. I will be supporting some of the people you Fired... THEY DESERVE IT!

[davesultra]

8 minutes ago, Millennium Maestro said:

To the core  "I am a Rebel" by nature, brutally honest and hardcore in my devotions. I became a Dealer out of respect for the Golden Era Owners, Real men that treated employees and associates with respect and honor.       My business model does not include molding myself to fit under  a corporate structure, my beliefs will not allow me to let someone "Puppet Master" me and pull my strings.

I will no longer be spending $20-30k yearly with Heritage... Regretfully.  No matter how much I want to help the Golden Era team!   I do business with people like myself and  2 Years of hopes was enough for me!

BEAN COUNTERS CAN BUY A BRAND NAME... THEY CAN'T BUY ME!  Jay is right, guitars are better, the promise of "The Best" guitars is a necessity to capturing world class dealers.  Jay is also very tight lipped on some stuff too because "Big Brother is Watching" . 

I suspect there are many business associates like myself that have remained loyal out of respect and honor of the "Golden Era Team", The general population does not know how close to Brand implosion the Golden Team was when initially purchased by Plaza and Plaza earned a ton of respect for saving a brand that is near and dear to my heart!

  However, I found it hard dealing with an entity with zero musician experience, that was entirely out of their element, trying to impose business models with a total lack of concern for their models effected the associates that supported their products.  Now there is a new 49% owner that has zero respect for the loyal associates that blindly supported the brand and have a total devotion to the product...

MENG:  You now own a brand and are responding to end users and people that believe in that brand...  I believe you want the 'Best Brand" you can deliver... It is now time for you to step up, you will personally be held responsible for your words and promises.
   Bandlab Heritage IS a byproduct of nearly 33 years of history that you have inherited, Heritage has an earned reputation and that reputation is NOT Gibson 2.0 no matter who you hire! If you want to be "THE BIG DOG" you will have to earn that reputation through your products, associate support, end user appreciation, artist support and your own "History of Earned" respect.   Your words are a hollow vessel with a shiny exterior... but is there any substance really inside, you will have to prove you are "The Big Dog" and it will not happen overnight.

You are in a very distinctive position, a cross roads of sorts... You either have to become what you say you want to become or forever be labeled "Henry J 2.0", I hope I m wrong in whom you've hired and placed your trust.
In short! I HOPE YOU CAN EARN MY RESPECT!  I am routing for you.

PS. There is nothing wrong with "The Heritage" product, maybe you should try NOT to be Gibson, PRS, Collings or any other manufacturer.  The Heritage IS enough for me....

PSS.  Do you really think direct sales to the End User is part of the solution in the USA.

PSSS. I will be supporting some of the people you Fired... THEY DESERVE IT!

Word! 

[StephenK]

Right on brother MM!

[deytookerjaabs]

Sorry for the rants, I don't frequent the HOC but have been a long time fan and have owned quite a few Heritage models always appreciating how they last in line of a long lineage.

The improving quality thing:

I've set up my own instruments for a long time as no matter what I get from a shop I want a different gauge/brand of strings, different relief, thus different intonation, maybe even different bit of fall off here or there. This culture of "perfect out of the box" kind of boggles my mind, as if every dude wants the same action & strings & gauge etc. Extra wide nuts that never bind like PRS don't impress me as they might hold tune since they don't hold the string and you sacrifice attack/decay, neither just seeing binding that was taped versus scraped, or all sorts of other modern ideas which make every guitar a clone of itself. 

When I first found out about Heritage they were competing with Gibson USA guitars in their introductory models (solid, laminate) and Gibson Custom in their carved tops at a better price point in with far more hand work behind the scenes. If a tuning machine was .25MM off angle that didn't bother me in the slightest as I recognize the so many other aspects of build quality first.  

I saw Heritage as a Blue Collar OLD SCHOOL Company that was a smokin' deal for players wanting hand made American Instruments following that "flawed" tradition as Jay Wolfe puts it. 

Then they were sold, then more price hikes, and more. After investment they'll be focusing on Solid Bodies & Laminates with higher prices but, oh, the fret ends won't have an extra scratch. That's cool, but that's a different class of buyers. I'm concerned with wood, materials, old school hand work AND price. 

Scraped binding, hand filed fret ends, hand sanded finishes, hand applied veneers, and many other details are all part of tradition, if they're a hair off under the magnifying glass SO WHAT, they weren't 3D printed and that's the entire point. 

If Heritage becomes another Collings, which looks to be the case in the not too distant future (it won't be long before H150's & H535's go greater than 3K+, IMO) good for them. That's cool to be a part of the high dollar boutique community but to get real for a second, $3250 for a single cut flat body Collings 290 is CRAZY for such a simple build and even for a domestic guitar! Oh, but the fret ends are "Perfect" and the "Fit and finish is impeccable." There are $500 guitars I can say that about too 

 

I'm surprised @ThroBak, You, of all people, understand each vintage Kalamazoo Gibson is different. Everything, I've seen it all, the tops carves vary, laminate thickness, neck pitch, finishes, binding scrapes, neck carves, edge contours, fret end filings, fret slot depths depending on how sharp/dull the blades are, kerfing specs, the bevel on the pickguards, the bracing sizes, on and on. Your entire company is based on cloning pickups that were totally inconsistent, each with different character. Thus,  each Kalamazoo Gibson guitar even from the same years having it's own mojo down to every detail, no two exactly the same. Every Heritage I've played demonstrates those "kalamazoo flaws" whether you love the guitar or hate it. 

I love it.

Besides an independent luthier, Heritage was the last in the line which created identical guitar models with such differing character piece to piece. The CNC world is everything in 2018. 

You want Vanilla, predictability for online buyers, each guitar under the microscope to exacting specifications, go ahead. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[davesultra]

53 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said:

Sorry for the rants, I don't frequent the HOC but have been a long time fan and have owned quite a few Heritage models always appreciating how they last in line of a long lineage.

The improving quality thing:

I've set up my own instruments for a long time as no matter what I get from a shop I want a different gauge/brand of strings, different relief, thus different intonation, maybe even different bit of fall off here or there. This culture of "perfect out of the box" kind of boggles my mind, as if every dude wants the same action & strings & gauge etc. Extra wide nuts that never bind like PRS don't impress me as they might hold tune since they don't hold the string and you sacrifice attack/decay, neither just seeing binding that was taped versus scraped, or all sorts of other modern ideas which make every guitar a clone of itself. 

When I first found out about Heritage they were competing with Gibson USA guitars in their introductory models (solid, laminate) and Gibson Custom in their carved tops at a better price point in with far more hand work behind the scenes. If a tuning machine was .25MM off angle that didn't bother me in the slightest as I recognize the so many other aspects of build quality first.  

I saw Heritage as a Blue Collar OLD SCHOOL Company that was a smokin' deal for players wanting hand made American Instruments following that "flawed" tradition as Jay Wolfe puts it. 

Then they were sold, then more price hikes, and more. After investment they'll be focusing on Solid Bodies & Laminates with higher prices but, oh, the fret ends won't have an extra scratch. That's cool, but that's a different class of buyers. I'm concerned with wood, materials, old school hand work AND price. 

Scraped binding, hand filed fret ends, hand sanded finishes, hand applied veneers, and many other details are all part of tradition, if they're a hair off under the magnifying glass SO WHAT, they weren't 3D printed and that's the entire point. 

If Heritage becomes another Collings, which looks to be the case in the not too distant future (it won't be long before H150's & H535's go greater than 3K+, IMO) good for them. That's cool to be a part of the high dollar boutique community but to get real for a second, $3250 for a single cut flat body Collings 290 is CRAZY for such a simple build and even for a domestic guitar! Oh, but the fret ends are "Perfect" and the "Fit and finish is impeccable." There are $500 guitars I can say that about too 

 

I'm surprised @ThroBak, You, of all people, understand each vintage Kalamazoo Gibson is different. Everything, I've seen it all, the tops carves vary, laminate thickness, neck pitch, finishes, binding scrapes, neck carves, edge contours, fret end filings, fret slot depths depending on how sharp/dull the blades are, kerfing specs, the bevel on the pickguards, the bracing sizes, on and on. Your entire company is based on cloning pickups that were totally inconsistent, each with different character. Thus,  each Kalamazoo Gibson guitar even from the same years having it's own mojo down to every detail, no two exactly the same. Every Heritage I've played demonstrates those "kalamazoo flaws" whether you love the guitar or hate it. 

I love it.

Besides an independent luthier, Heritage was the last in the line which created identical guitar models with such differing character piece to piece. The CNC world is everything in 2018. 

You want Vanilla, predictability for online buyers, each guitar under the microscope to exacting specifications, go ahead. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great post!

I also loved the little "flaws" here and there, which I never really considered "flaws". They were handmade which meant, by human hands. I would expect to see minor flaws in their instruments. Just as no one person is perfect, neither would or should I expect a guitar to be perfect.

[Spectrum13]

15 minutes ago, davesultra said:

Great post!

I also loved the little "flaws" here and there, which I never really considered "flaws". They were handmade which meant, by human hands. I would expect to see minor flaws in their instruments. Just as no one person is perfect, neither would or should I expect a guitar to be perfect.

Agree ... some people are OCD and will trash products with these imperfections. A few years back an HOC member had a beautiful 150 custom built and sent it back because the binding had a taint of overspray. It was some kind of superiority thing I guess. Can't imagine what a pain in the a it must be owning a guitar company and dealing with that kind of fussy. ☮

[yoslate]

1 hour ago, Millennium Maestro said:

   Bandlab Heritage IS a byproduct of nearly 33 years of history that you have inherited, Heritage has an earned reputation and that reputation is NOT Gibson 2.0 no matter who you hire! If you want to be "THE BIG DOG" you will have to earn that reputation through your products, associate support, end user appreciation, artist support and your own "History of Earned" respect.   Your words are a hollow vessel with a shiny exterior... but is there any substance really inside, you will have to prove you are "The Big Dog" and it will not happen overnight.

 

We know each other, and Guy and I could not be much more different.  His posts, when he's "on one," often cause me to wince.  But make no mistake about the sincerity of his unalloyed passion for Heritage Guitars.  I read his entire post carefully, twice.  He did not hit the first clam.  I excerpted what seems to me a very important caveat to the new Heritage.  The only thing I don't quite agree with is: "Heritage IS a byproduct of nearly 33 years of history...."  Heritage is not a byproduct of history; it is a living history.  As everyone here, I might only hope for the best in their continuing a sanctified tradition.  But the pit of my stomach is roiling.

[ThroBak]

1 hour ago, deytookerjaabs said:

I'm surprised @ThroBak, You, of all people, understand each vintage Kalamazoo Gibson is different. Everything, I've seen it all, the tops carves vary, laminate thickness, neck pitch, finishes, binding scrapes, neck carves, edge contours, fret end filings, fret slot depths depending on how sharp/dull the blades are, kerfing specs, the bevel on the pickguards, the bracing sizes, on and on. Your entire company is based on cloning pickups that were totally inconsistent, each with different character. Thus,  each Kalamazoo Gibson guitar even from the same years having it's own mojo down to every detail, no two exactly the same. Every Heritage I've played demonstrates those "kalamazoo flaws" whether you love the guitar or hate it. 

I love it.

3

Listen, I get it. The mojo and history built into a Heritage of Kalamazoo era Gibson is undeniable. That is why I own a bunch of both. I even feel the same way about the vintage winding machines I use to make pickups. My feeling is by using and maintaining the old machines or old guitars I am honoring people that made and used them for decades. Whether it is a machine that was made to last or a guitar, the people that made them and used them have some of their best years invested in them. If you have the privilege of owning their creation, you pay tribute to their hard work by respecting the machine or guitar and using it as it was meant to be.

Part of the charm of old guitars and pickups is their individuality. But the reality is this charm is a double edged sword potentially. There are vintage P.A.F.'s that sound magical and others that sound dull. My goal is to understand what made them magical and make it repeatable. To do this though I have to record, control and repeat parameters that were not even on the radar for Gibson back in the day.

My point with this is that if Heritage has better control over what makes their guitars great, the more great guitars you will get. It means paying attention to the details and concentrating on the details that need the hands on touch and expertise of a craftsman. If Heritage does lean right their guitars will get more individual attention and craftsmanship than ever before. To me it sounds like that is what Heritage is dedicated to doing. You are going to get a guitar with more personality, not less.

 

[deytookerjaabs]

23 minutes ago, ThroBak said:

Listen, I get it. The mojo and history built into a Heritage of Kalamazoo era Gibson is undeniable. That is why I own a bunch of both. I even feel the same way about the vintage winding machines I use to make pickups. My feeling is by using and maintaining the old machines or old guitars I am honoring people that made and used them for decades. Whether it is a machine that was made to last or a guitar, the people that made them and used them have some of their best years invested in them. If you have the privilege of owning their creation, you pay tribute to their hard work by respecting the machine or guitar and using it as it was meant to be.

Part of the charm of old guitars and pickups is their individuality. But the reality is this charm is a double edged sword potentially. There are vintage P.A.F.'s that sound magical and others that sound dull. My goal is to understand what made them magical and make it repeatable. To do this though I have to record, control and repeat parameters that were not even on the radar for Gibson back in the day.

My point with this is that if Heritage has better control over what makes their guitars great, the more great guitars you will get. It means paying attention to the details and concentrating on the details that need the hands on touch and expertise of a craftsman. If Heritage does lean right their guitars will get more individual attention and craftsmanship than ever before. To me it sounds like that is what Heritage is dedicated to doing. You are going to get a guitar with more personality, not less.

 

 

 

Fair points and I agree with you on following formulas to exacting specs for exacting results. 

 

On the flip side from a pure musicians perspective I, as I'm sure many others, have picked up instruments that had everything wrong with them in accordance with "common wisdom" that sounded wonderful in my hands for whatever reason. The more exacting guitars are, the more they follow someone else's concept of greatness. 

[Johnsonfromwisconsin]

3 hours ago, Millennium Maestro said:

To the core  "I am a Rebel" by nature, brutally honest and hardcore in my devotions. I became a Dealer out of respect for the Golden Era Owners, Real men that treated employees and associates with respect and honor.       My business model does not include molding myself to fit under  a corporate structure, my beliefs will not allow me to let someone "Puppet Master" me and pull my strings.

I will no longer be spending $20-30k yearly with Heritage... Regretfully.  No matter how much I want to help the Golden Era team!   I do business with people like myself and  2 Years of hopes was enough for me!

BEAN COUNTERS CAN BUY A BRAND NAME... THEY CAN'T BUY ME!  Jay is right, guitars are better, the promise of "The Best" guitars is a necessity to capturing world class dealers.  Jay is also very tight lipped on some stuff too because "Big Brother is Watching" . 

I suspect there are many business associates like myself that have remained loyal out of respect and honor of the "Golden Era Team", The general population does not know how close to Brand implosion the Golden Team was when initially purchased by Plaza and Plaza earned a ton of respect for saving a brand that is near and dear to my heart!

  However, I found it hard dealing with an entity with zero musician experience, that was entirely out of their element, trying to impose business models with a total lack of concern for their models effected the associates that supported their products.  Now there is a new 49% owner that has zero respect for the loyal associates that blindly supported the brand and have a total devotion to the product...

MENG:  You now own a brand and are responding to end users and people that believe in that brand...  I believe you want the 'Best Brand" you can deliver... It is now time for you to step up, you will personally be held responsible for your words and promises.
   Bandlab Heritage IS a byproduct of nearly 33 years of history that you have inherited, Heritage has an earned reputation and that reputation is NOT Gibson 2.0 no matter who you hire! If you want to be "THE BIG DOG" you will have to earn that reputation through your products, associate support, end user appreciation, artist support and your own "History of Earned" respect.   Your words are a hollow vessel with a shiny exterior... but is there any substance really inside, you will have to prove you are "The Big Dog" and it will not happen overnight.

You are in a very distinctive position, a cross roads of sorts... You either have to become what you say you want to become or forever be labeled "Henry J 2.0", I hope I m wrong in whom you've hired and placed your trust.
In short! I HOPE YOU CAN EARN MY RESPECT!  I am routing for you.

PS. There is nothing wrong with "The Heritage" product, maybe you should try NOT to be Gibson, PRS, Collings or any other manufacturer.  The Heritage IS enough for me....

PSS.  Do you really think direct sales to the End User is part of the solution in the USA.

PSSS. I will be supporting some of the people you Fired... THEY DESERVE IT!

Who is MENG?

 

[Besty]

2 hours ago, deytookerjaabs said:

Sorry for the rants, I don't frequent the HOC but have been a long time fan and have owned quite a few Heritage models always appreciating how they last in line of a long lineage.

The improving quality thing:

I've set up my own instruments for a long time as no matter what I get from a shop I want a different gauge/brand of strings, different relief, thus different intonation, maybe even different bit of fall off here or there. This culture of "perfect out of the box" kind of boggles my mind, as if every dude wants the same action & strings & gauge etc. Extra wide nuts that never bind like PRS don't impress me as they might hold tune since they don't hold the string and you sacrifice attack/decay, neither just seeing binding that was taped versus scraped, or all sorts of other modern ideas which make every guitar a clone of itself. 

When I first found out about Heritage they were competing with Gibson USA guitars in their introductory models (solid, laminate) and Gibson Custom in their carved tops at a better price point in with far more hand work behind the scenes. If a tuning machine was .25MM off angle that didn't bother me in the slightest as I recognize the so many other aspects of build quality first.  

I saw Heritage as a Blue Collar OLD SCHOOL Company that was a smokin' deal for players wanting hand made American Instruments following that "flawed" tradition as Jay Wolfe puts it. 

Then they were sold, then more price hikes, and more. After investment they'll be focusing on Solid Bodies & Laminates with higher prices but, oh, the fret ends won't have an extra scratch. That's cool, but that's a different class of buyers. I'm concerned with wood, materials, old school hand work AND price. 

Scraped binding, hand filed fret ends, hand sanded finishes, hand applied veneers, and many other details are all part of tradition, if they're a hair off under the magnifying glass SO WHAT, they weren't 3D printed and that's the entire point. 

If Heritage becomes another Collings, which looks to be the case in the not too distant future (it won't be long before H150's & H535's go greater than 3K+, IMO) good for them. That's cool to be a part of the high dollar boutique community but to get real for a second, $3250 for a single cut flat body Collings 290 is CRAZY for such a simple build and even for a domestic guitar! Oh, but the fret ends are "Perfect" and the "Fit and finish is impeccable." There are $500 guitars I can say that about too 

 

I'm surprised @ThroBak, You, of all people, understand each vintage Kalamazoo Gibson is different. Everything, I've seen it all, the tops carves vary, laminate thickness, neck pitch, finishes, binding scrapes, neck carves, edge contours, fret end filings, fret slot depths depending on how sharp/dull the blades are, kerfing specs, the bevel on the pickguards, the bracing sizes, on and on. Your entire company is based on cloning pickups that were totally inconsistent, each with different character. Thus,  each Kalamazoo Gibson guitar even from the same years having it's own mojo down to every detail, no two exactly the same. Every Heritage I've played demonstrates those "kalamazoo flaws" whether you love the guitar or hate it. 

I love it.

Besides an independent luthier, Heritage was the last in the line which created identical guitar models with such differing character piece to piece. The CNC world is everything in 2018. 

You want Vanilla, predictability for online buyers, each guitar under the microscope to exacting specifications, go ahead. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's nothing to add to this very SAD but TRUE comment, you nailed it.  

[notbillgelder]

11 minutes ago, Johnsonfromwisconsin said:

Who is MENG?

 

Meng Ru Kuok, CEO and co-founder of BandLab. 

[Millennium Maestro]

1 hour ago, yoslate said:

We know each other, and Guy and I could not be much more different.  His posts, when he's "on one," often cause me to wince.  But make no mistake about the sincerity of his unalloyed passion for Heritage Guitars.  I read his entire post carefully, twice.  He did not hit the first clam.  I excerpted what seems to me a very important caveat to the new Heritage.  The only thing I don't quite agree with is: "Heritage IS a byproduct of nearly 33 years of history...."  Heritage is not a byproduct of history; it is a living history.  As everyone here, I might only hope for the best in their continuing a sanctified tradition.  But the pit of my stomach is roiling.

Rob!  Wassup!  Hope all is well I miss our brief conversations. Just a tiny clarification, My point may not have been understood correctly.

The quote " Bandlab Heritage IS a byproduct of nearly 33 years of history" 

I should have highlighted "Bandlab Heritage",   (talking about the 3rd generation owner) that HAS purchased into a company with 32+ years of storied history and that 32+ years of Heritage is what they have inherited AND from my observations what they appear to be wizzing on. 

[pegleg32]

An internet search of Meng Ru Kuok will tell you all you need to know about the future of Heritage. He is very rich, very intelligent, and very ambitious, and he will have no interest in the "friends and family" philosophy of the old Heritage. I'm sure he will build a fine, top quality guitar, but so does PRS and any number of other manufacturers. I agree with the others who have declared the "mojo" is probably gone. Time moves on, hang to your old Heritages, not only for their value, but for their reminder of a craftsman style, hand made guitar, built by friendly folks, that you probably won't find again.

[yoslate]

Got the clarification, Guy.  Makes all kinds of sense, yes.  Doing great, thanks!  Band's about to release our third CD, a live one, which I'm really proud of.  And then we're in the studio again in May for another project.  Four discs in four-and-a-half years.  Lots of really good gigs already booked for 2018, and a new drummer, one of the best first call guys in town has thrown in with us.  Everybody in the family's healthy; can't ask for anything more.  Oh, and my son's living in Reno, now.  Loves it!  Hope you guys are good in Vegas!  Sorry about all this kerfuffle in Kalamazoo!  Can't have left you in a good place.    

[bolero]

 

well until more info comes out, I refuse to rant...

I have been in organizations where longterm employees have stubbornly refused to modify their behaviour, claiming to know more about running the business than the new owners

this always manifested itself as negative attitudes and difficult situations

I'm not saying this happened, just speculating on a very possible scenario

who had the cajones to pony up the $$ and buy the company?

I say let them run their business, and let time decide

[tbonesullivan]

Reading Jay Wolfe's post really has gotten me thinking, and it actually is something that I've had to personally deal with in my "day job".  All businesses change over time. Some people change with how the business is run, and others are unable to change. We just had to let go a long-time employee because his work was getting worse, he would not change how he did things, and he was simply not able to do the job anymore.

Yes, Wolfe is the largest heritage dealer, and does have a horse in the race in a big way. However this also means that they have first hand experience of the issues that have plagued Heritage, which sadly are a vestige of the Norlin years in Kalamazoo.  I have 4 Heritage guitars. One I bought used from Wolfe. One I bought from another forum member, and two I received off ebay. Some of them have some issues with original construction quality. They are great guitars, and I love them, but they definitely have their issues.

The H158 Classic I have, the nut was never cut right originally. The D string was about 2mm of to one side. You could see the score mark on the top of the nut where it was SUPPOSED to have been slotted, but it was messed up. Yes, it's the original nut. Also there was a bunch of buffing compound stuck on the end of the fretboard, and there are a few chips in the fretboard as well. Also during buffing the finish on the edges around the F-holes was worn through, and on the side rim I can see where a bit of color scraping must have stuck when the binding was cleaned. When the clear was put on it created a darker spot.

The Kahuna has had a facelift, and when the finish was off the top, there were a lot of "gibson-style" shortcuts noted. The pickguard jutted out into the cutaway, and also the "binding" on the pickguard was just painted on, and somewhat sloppily". I still need to take some pictures of the post facelift guitar.

The H-535 I have has a rim crack, which is under the finish, so it was there when it was made. There's also a lot of glue slop on the joint between the kerfing on the top and bottom that attaches to the center block.

 

Mind you, this is all the type of stuff I see routinely on G-brand guitars as well.

It's not something I saw on used Hamer guitars. Or on New Music Man guitars. If Heritage wants to compete on the world stage, they need to get the fit and finish issues sorted out. If people were not receptive to change then I'm sorry, they did have to go. "I've done it this way for 10 years" is never an excuse. Always strive to improve, and make things better than they have been before.

[bolero]

also, I am sure Heritage has had to temporarily lay people off before, when things were slow?

do we even know if this was a "firing" or a layoff?

[deytookerjaabs]

9 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

 

Yes, Wolfe is the largest heritage dealer, and does have a horse in the race in a big way. However this also means that they have first hand experience of the issues that have plagued Heritage, which sadly are a vestige of the Norlin years in Kalamazoo.

 

That is total Nonsense, a fabrication of your own imagination. "Golden Era" Gibsons had every "flaw" I touted above. Do yourself a favor and go examine them in hand or get some good books, if you want to see offset eyeballed tuner placements let me recommend "Beauty Of The Burst" first and foremost. I'm not sure how many Gibson's I've had in hand, but if you want to see flaws the further you go the more they pop out, the 50's solid bodies were the epitome of this.

The only connection here with the Norlin years is the decision to produce less & less time consuming high end instruments for the sake of focusing on bread & butter models.

[Buckyrock]

"Meng the Merciless" - wasn't he a character in "Flash Gordon"?

[Hfan]

I'm truly sorry for anyone that lost their jobs and the loyalty of those that walked out with them is commendable and seldom seen these days.

It is really hard for me to have a firm grip on what is going on from a distance.

I've also been wondering for years how long the good times would last. It was almost like a fairy tale story. A shooting star. A famous guitar manufacturing company moving and leaving their equipment and historic site behind. And a few guys with a vision staying behind and starting up a new venture, doing things the old way, the way they would want things done, not out of greed or with the eye on corporate efficiencies etc etc. They did it their way, and we have all benefited and shared in the fruits of that vision. We got that  mojo in each Heritage we own. They bucked the system for sure and good for them.

Quoting George H "all things must pass". I hope this is not the end and I'm sad to see what is happening now.  In this day and age, with the demographics of the guitar playing population, the economy, the shrinking middle class etc etc I could see it coming. I hope the brand lives on at a level that it deserves. If it is at the end then I hope it ends with the dignity that it deserves.

In the end I'm grateful that we had Heritage at all.

Edit to add (how could I forget) The HOC itself is a direct byproduct of the Heritage story, so many friendships and good times. I'll focus on the positives for now.

[ElNumero]

21 hours ago, 111518 said:

I first became interested in Heritage guitars before I had seen a single instrument, when I read that a few managers and workers in K'zoo had refused to accept "corp-speak" that a guitar-making company could no longer survive (which, of course, really meant, "profits could not be maximized") in the unionized, old-school environment of Michigan and had to move to the cheap-labor world of Nashville.  I think I initially romanticized the degree to which Heritage really operated as a "worker controlled" company, but, my connection to Heritage remained to a company that survived, even if unevenly in terms of QC and profitability, by bucking the cheap-labor model and by maintaining the fellowship of the shop and the tradition of skilled work. 

Perhaps the former sometimes got in the way of the latter --fellowship outweighed the bottom line, and some human inconsistencies were tolerated that might not have been at other workplaces-- but then, it's  a lot easier to replace a poorly-cut string nut than to find anything to be proud of in a possession that was made by exploiting people.  I reject the morality or worth of "creative destruction" when what gets destroyed is peoples' lives. 

I write to applaud those workers who walked out rather than continue to work when their friends and coworkers were given the axe.  Those are the people that to me really represent the heritage that I valued and that made me proud to play and recommend the guitars.    

The workers at Heritage were a very close and  tight knit family; ask Katie "the girl" who was as good a craftsperson as any of them; those workers had a bond that you just do not find in an ordinary company that makes "widgets".  Did the new management actually fail to see that by letting go these dedicated craftspeople in one batch that some of the other talented workers that were NOT let go would decide to support their brothers and sisters? Is it any surprise?