Change at Heritage Guitar

[ElNumero]

14 hours ago, Spectrum13 said:

Agree ... some people are OCD and will trash products with these imperfections. A few years back an HOC member had a beautiful 150 custom built and sent it back because the binding had a taint of overspray. It was some kind of superiority thing I guess. Can't imagine what a pain in the a it must be owning a guitar company and dealing with that kind of fussy. ☮

Your correct Dan! And I never minded my nuts being imperfect when I bought a Heritage guitar!

[Yooper]

9 minutes ago, ElNumero said:

Your correct Dan! And I never minded my nuts being imperfect when I bought a Heritage guitar!

 No. I won't go there. Not even for that, er, low-hanging fruit.

[Spectrum13]

21 minutes ago, ElNumero said:

Your correct Dan! And I never minded my nuts being imperfect when I bought a Heritage guitar!

So you wear boxers when you demo a guitar?

[ElNumero]

10 minutes ago, Yooper said:

 No. I won't go there. Not even for that, er, low-hanging fruit.

Smart decision!!! And yes, I was baiting you!

[deytookerjaabs]

The fussiness comes from modern methods via machines and tools use in mass production. People are so used to seeing "perfect" guitars built with updated tools because that's all we've had since the 80's. I can't imagine transporting one of these guys back to 1952 and seeing what he thinks when he open the control cavity of his new blackguard to see they hand chiseled the rout to align the control plate! Better take your heart pills!!

For example...

Take something simple like dot inlays on binding. If you get a little ruler, a pencil, and a punch you mark your holes then hand drill them. Upon close examination if you do this 100 times maybe 1 will be perfect by accident. The rest, good enough, and many hair wonky. 

Whereas, if you engineer and order a punch you can do 100 lengths of binding with one swipe of the lever in under 2 minutes and they will all be perfect.

Take this, and compound it with all the methods used today and I, for the life of me, have to wonder how ridiculous people are who complain about loose tolerances on a comparably cheap hand made American guitar. If you want machine precision AND hand tooling you need to spend a lot more money than a Heritage would have cost before 2010.  

 

Here's the sweet irony, when all the new tools and methods of generating exacting precision with efficiency get implemented saving hundreds of line/man hours......you think those savings are going to be passed on to you?? 

[yoslate]

10 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said:

The fussiness comes from modern methods via machines and tools use in mass production. People are so used to seeing "perfect" guitars built with updated tools because that's all we've had since the 80's. I can't imagine transporting one of these guys back to 1952 and seeing what he thinks when he open the control cavity of his new blackguard to see they hand chiseled the rout to align the control plate! Better take your heart pills!!

For example...

Take something simple like dot inlays on binding. If you get a little ruler, a pencil, and a punch you mark your holes then hand drill them. Upon close examination if you do this 100 times maybe 1 will be perfect by accident. The rest, good enough, and many hair wonky. 

Whereas, if you engineer and order a punch you can do 100 lengths of binding with one swipe of the lever in under 2 minutes and they will all be perfect.

Take this, and compound it with all the methods used today and I, for the life of me, have to wonder how ridiculous people are who complain about loose tolerances on a comparably cheap hand made American guitar. If you want machine precision AND hand tooling you need to spend a lot more money than a Heritage would have cost before 2010.  

 

Here's the sweet irony, when all the new tools and methods of generating exacting precision with efficiency get implemented saving hundreds of line/man hours......you think those savings are going to be passed on to you?? 

"Just play the fncking thing."  (Sorry, it's been a while.)

[Millennium Maestro]

16 minutes ago, yoslate said:

"Just play the fncking thing."  (Sorry, it's been a while.)

Oh I do! Congrats on Album #3. Glad everything is going well!  Can't thank you enough for your charitable action for kids with cancer after I could have earned the nickname "Skidmark".

[JohnCovach]

I am probably the worst kind of Heritage owner from the point of view of dealers and manufacturers: I never buy any of these guitars new. Like many of you, I buy them used and then modify them, installing hardware, maybe installing a new nut, changing out tuners, etc. A Heritage for me has only ever been a starting point (except for a 155 that I bought from Jay, which was perfect when it arrived). I'm old enough to have played 50s and 60s Les Pauls, Strats, 335s, and lots of other vintage guitars before vintage was so expensive. I even owned a few. A lot of those guitars played terribly and needed LOTS of adjusting. So I've never really thought the older guitars were without their problems.

From my point of view, the quality of the new guitars (higher, lower, whatever) doesn't matter much. I've toured many of the big factories--Martin, Fender, Gibson Memphis--and it's amazing how similar they are to one another. I have recent-issue guitars from all of those manufacturers that all needed work when I bought them (and one was new, right out of the box). But they were also great guitars.

Like many others here, I'm attracted to a certain Heritage mojo. I'm a native Michigander and I love to feel pride in the K'zoo tradition. I hate to see the past slip away, but that's what happens no matter what you do if you hang around for a while. It kinda feels to me like that connection to the Gibson/K'zoo past and its tradition (however romantic and even irrational this "magic mojo" may be) is fading fast, and I'm sorry to see it go. But again, it won't affect my decision to buy a new one, because I'm that lousy kind of Heritage user who never buys one new anyway.

[tbonesullivan]

You know... please don't feed me any of the "hand built means imperfections" BS. I'm over it.  Last I checked all guitars are painted by hand, not by machines. The binding is masked and/or scraped by hands, not machines. This is at ANY level of guitar manufacturing. Buffed... by hand, using machines.

There's no excuse for poor fit and finish, not from Gibson, and not from Heritage.

I also play trombone, and "artisan level" trombones come in with perfect fit and finish. Most production level trombones also are expected to have perfect fit and finish

Yamaha manages to have their trombones have perfect fit and finish even on the mid-range models.

[deytookerjaabs]

28 minutes ago, tbonesullivan said:

You know... please don't feed me any of the "hand built means imperfections" BS. I'm over it.  Last I checked all guitars are painted by hand, not by machines. The binding is masked and/or scraped by hands, not machines. This is at ANY level of guitar manufacturing. Buffed... by hand, using machines.

There's no excuse for poor fit and finish, not from Gibson, and not from Heritage.

 

 

And this line of logic is why we can't have nice things at great prices. If you demand to look at every detail with a microscope you need to make sure each human at each step is doing a 100% perfect job on something which requires 100+ step process....BY HAND. 

 

Heritage, like the old 3rd Floor of Parson's street has been a soft tooling plant. Soft tooling is worlds apart from a hard tool fool proof assembly line. Corona and Nashville are hard tooling factories, if you want to change things you need to shut operation down for a month (which they do...every winter)

 

No different than a luthier's wood shop...one line at any given moment at Heritage could produce everything from a SuperStrat to a D'Angelico New Yorker to a Dreadnought to a Les Paul. If you can't comprehend how different that is, in each step of the way, then that's a shame.

[ThroBak]

3 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

You know... please don't feed me any of the "hand built means imperfections" BS. I'm over it.  Last I checked all guitars are painted by hand, not by machines. The binding is masked and/or scraped by hands, not machines. This is at ANY level of guitar manufacturing. Buffed... by hand, using machines.

There's no excuse for poor fit and finish, not from Gibson, and not from Heritage.

I also play trombone, and "artisan level" trombones come in with perfect fit and finish. Most production level trombones also are expected to have perfect fit and finish

Yamaha manages to have their trombones have perfect fit and finish even on the mid-range models.

1

I completely agree. Sure some people will see a new guitar with issues as a potential great deal but many more potential buyers will be turned off and never come back for a second look. Being known as a company with spotty QC is not a strategy for growing a business. From a business standpoint any guitars that go out with bad QC cost Heritage and dealers money. Just think about it, lower QC guitars are harder to sell and more likely to be sent back to the maker for a fix and more likely to sell at a price break. All of this is avoidable waste and takes away from the bottom line for Heritage and dealers. If you want a guitar with issues that is a great deal then look at used. But you should never expect to have an issues guitar new out of the box. Nobody ever lost a customer because of great QC.

[LucSulla]

17 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

Yes, Wolfe is the largest heritage dealer, and does have a horse in the race in a big way. However this also means that they have first hand experience of the issues that have plagued Heritage, which sadly are a vestige of the Norlin years in Kalamazoo.  I have 4 Heritage guitars. One I bought used from Wolfe. One I bought from another forum member, and two I received off ebay. Some of them have some issues with original construction quality. They are great guitars, and I love them, but they definitely have their issues.

 

I'm going to get flamed for this, but I used to post here quite a bit.  At a time, I owned a 150, 157, and 535.  The 157 had a number of issues under the hood, things like control panel screws drilled at an angle so that the bottom sticks out, and so on.  The 535 was an amazing sounding and playing guitar, but one day one of the tone nobs just split and fell off.  Additionally, despite rather casual playing, all the electronics were beginning to shake loose. The 150 was fantastic top to bottom.  

Now, for the first two, those aren't a HUGE issue, but part of buying a Heritage was the whole idea of old school craftsmanship that had been lost at Gibson.  I wasn't upset with these guitars and may buy that 535 back someday as it truly sounded and played phenomenally.  

But why did I disappear here and Heritages disappear from my stable?  Simple - I bought a 2013 LP Traditional, and it was an awesome guitar.  I subsequently bought a 2013 Firebird and a 2009 SG Standard - all also awesome guitars with build quality on par with the H150 I loved so much and frankly light years better than the H157.  At that point, I lost all interest in any Heritage solid body.  I have also subsequently bought a couple of custom orders new.  Heritage never crossed my mind as a player when I went on those hunts.  I'm not terribly nostalgic and still gig and record fairly often given my professional obligations these days.  I need guitars to do what they are supposed to do, and great stories don't keep the volume pots from shaking loose. I found Gibson did the job more reliably at roughly the same price with the added benefit of better resale value if I needed to sell it.  Heritage completely fell of my radar as a result. 

Suffice to say, I felt Wolfe's thoughts were dead on.  And it is sad that people lost their jobs, but what's better?  Half of the people losing their jobs, yet the place corrects and continues to exist, or eventually everyone loses there job when the place goes out of business?  I don't have a bone to pick with Heritage and would love to see the place keep the doors open and keep going.  As a matter of fact, Wolfe's comments made me interested to give their new products a second chance. 

So flame me if you wish, but particularly among the solid body line, there have been issues there, and it has cost them business. 

[deytookerjaabs]

If there was a Gold Metal for being daft, you guys would be atop the podium!

 

I've seen people complain about nut cutting for every major manufacture I know of. Why? Even luthiers have a different idea of how strings should be spaced and how high the first fret action should be, it's a very personal thing. You can't win. Fender nailed their vintage string spacing & setup, FINALLY, in reissue guitars then all people did was complain about it. Gibson tried to give you the same amount of string space at the edge of the board than between the strings and it was the WORST year they ever had!

Personally, I've had much more glaring issues from companies than having to tighten a control pot or peeking in the cavities for glue but that's neither here nor there. I've yet to see a big builder not get "QC" complaints online, touting Gibson is of course the icing on the cake!

 

Now, let's get specific and fix some "QC" issues the way modern guitar companies do:

Start with...The Finish. You know how to get a perfectly flat and extra robust finish so you can drastically reduce warranty claims for everything from sand through to blurbs etc? Undercoat it with Poly, this is what PRS, Suhr, Fender, G&L and others do even when it's "Nitro" (there are a few very limited exceptions)

You know how to get rid of marks around neck binding? Cut your frets over the binding so you can sand it flat and flush with the fretboard, boom, issue gone, internet posts down again. You'll never see another file mark! The other option, is a router to cut it flush in 10 seconds, Gibson USA does this but not Memphis or the Custom Shop since they have many "Reissue" guitars....thus, the dreaded file marks! 

You know how to have "perfectly cut" nuts? Just buy pre-formed one size fits all plastic/graphite nuts and call it a day, that's what PRS and many imports use. They get the least complaints, and also have the most useless nuts, funny how it works.

 

I could go on and on, but it'd be a waste of my time since we're no longer concerned with processes and materials etc, we'd rather have "perfect fit and finish" cookie cutter guitars done to someone else' concept of greatness with modern mass production friendly efficient tooling in place. 

 

Screw these idiots and their chisels, and jigs, and hole punches, and razor blades prone to human error. If they're gonna do it like that, they should make sure there's not one iota of flaws!! 

 

 

[Besty]

On February 23, 2018 at 6:13 PM, meng said:

Hey guys, 

It's always easy to share an update when there is good news, but that's not reality. Today was not an easy day and I want to make sure we as Heritage management can address this respectfully and transparently so you guys know what is going on. 

I am about to go out of cell service for 4 hours but want to make sure before I get cut off that you know you will be getting a proper update here as soon as I land and can get a connection. I'm really sorry to make you wait and will be right back.

It seems you have a larger wallet than heart, respectfully.

[DetroitBlues]

Just a reminder for everyone from our Admin:

 

""We do ask that you refrain from ad hominem (personal, for those who aren’t old enough to have taken any Latin) attacks against other members, Guests, dealers and, of course, the company itself.  Legitimate gripes and concerns are fine, as long as you stick to facts.  Essentially, we’ll stick to “treat others the way you want to be treated.”  And, no, you can’t be mean, even if that’s how you want to be treated.?"

[JeffB]

I always thought we had an angry mob emoticon. Ive looked. I cant find it.

Why dont we have an angry mob emoticon?

[holyroller]

Better hang on to those older Heritages, they are going to go up in value now.
 

Why? From what I am reading ,the old ones are junk compared to the new ones.


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[JeffB]

3 minutes ago, holyroller said:

Why? From what I am reading ,the old ones are junk compared to the new ones.


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[Polo]

40 minutes ago, JeffB said:

I always thought we had an angry mob emoticon. Ive looked. I cant find it.

Why dont we have an angry mob emoticon?

[pegleg32]

1 hour ago, holyroller said:

Why? From what I am reading ,the old ones are junk compared to the new ones.


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LOL, well maybe it is a matter of perspective, mine is not junk and something tells me yours isn't either. Perhaps your comment was "tongue in cheek"? I doubt that I will ever own another guitar that has the fond memories of this one, and it is an excellent player on top of that. I only have the 150 now, but I originally purchase an upgraded, matched pair 150/535, brand new, for $4,000 and both were (and are) excellent guitars.

[Kuz]

Full disclosure that I have only read the first 1.5 pages of this thread.....

But as someone who has been the casualty of "right-sizing" twice........

-WHEN will upper mamnagment take responsibility for OVER forecasting their sales goals & production numbers????  

-Was the shinny new factory absolutely needed if they didn't have a need to make that many guitars?????

-Mr. Meng, and I know we will never know the full truth, Was your earnings, salary, bonus, or stock options lowered by even a penny with this decision?

-I consider myself the last true moderate on the earth, but Upper Management/owners should have to show some accountable for their poor decisions instead of just cutting jobs of employees that did NOTHING wrong.  

-Can Billionaires afford a 2 year 10% salary reduction to save their employees' jobs for their own poor sales tactics & strategies?

[ElNumero]

4 hours ago, JeffB said:

lol

[ElNumero]

4 hours ago, holyroller said:

Why? From what I am reading ,the old ones are junk compared to the new ones.


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I don't know what you are reading but it is incorrect. I own a 1992 and a 2000 so they are a bit older and they are near perfect (for me anyhow). I have no issues with either. I also own a 2016 and it is exceptionally well crafted. But I would never call older Heritage guitars junk, that is simply not the case. 

[notbillgelder]

5 hours ago, DetroitBlues said:

Just a reminder for everyone from our Admin:

 

""We do ask that you refrain from ad hominem (personal, for those who aren’t old enough to have taken any Latin) attacks against other members, Guests, dealers and, of course, the company itself.  Legitimate gripes and concerns are fine, as long as you stick to facts.  Essentially, we’ll stick to “treat others the way you want to be treated.”  And, no, you can’t be mean, even if that’s how you want to be treated.?"

[holyroller]

I don't know what you are reading but it is incorrect. I own a 1992 and a 2000 so they are a bit older and they are near perfect (for me anyhow). I have no issues with either. I also own a 2016 and it is exceptionally well crafted. But I would never call older Heritage guitars junk, that is simply not the case. 

I have owned heritage guitars and I have read stories on the forum about models going out with lots of flaws,Also a dealer . But I did play a 2017 157 that had Terrible frets.So go figure. Love the original heritages , wasn’t impressed with the 2017


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