Change at Heritage Guitar

[Genericmusic]

[big bob]

I bought my first Heritage in 1999 from Elderly in Lansing. At the time I lived in Mt. Pleasant. I liked the Idea of spending my money locally. While I missed PSP 1 due to a family emergency I have attended all the others. I have traveled with some great people and been hosted my many others. For the last 5 years or so I have stayed with a second generation heritage luthier at her and her husbands house. I have had the privilege of hanging out with those luthiers who have built the guitars I so much enjoy. People like Kate, and Chris, Arnie, Curly, Charles, Pete, and many others. They have built 3 guitars especially for me. Not custom build but employee builds, just for me by people who I consider friends. 

I have always loved the High quality of my Heritage guitars, and I don’t doubt the quality will keep getting better. But if all the friends I have made along the way are doing other things. It’s just not the same for me. 

I don’t love my heritages because they are great guitars. I love them because they are great guitars my friends made. When you take the friends out.. your left with just guitars. 

[Yooper]

47 minutes ago, big bob said:

I bought my first Heritage in 1999 from Elderly in Lansing. At the time I lived in Mt. Pleasant. I liked the Idea of spending my money locally. While I missed PSP 1 due to a family emergency I have attended all the others. I have traveled with some great people and been hosted my many others. For the last 5 years or so I have stayed with a second generation heritage luthier at her and her husbands house. I have had the privilege of hanging out with those luthiers who have built the guitars I so much enjoy. People like Kate, and Chris, Arnie, Curly, Charles, Pete, and many others. They have built 3 guitars especially for me. Not custom build but employee builds, just for me by people who I consider friends. 

I have always loved the High quality of my Heritage guitars, and I don’t doubt the quality will keep getting better. But if all the friends I have made along the way are doing other things. It’s just not the same for me. 

I don’t love my heritages because they are great guitars. I love them because they are great guitars my friends made. When you take the friends out.. your left with just guitars. 

I hope these friends can be our special guests at the HOC's jam/gathering this year.

It wouldn't be PSP without them.

[LittleLeroy]

On 2/24/2018 at 1:14 AM, meng said:

Thank you for your patience and I am truly sorry for the delay in posting an update.

It was indeed a sad day at the plant today, as a result of difficult decisions that it was our responsibility as management to make for the stability and future of the team at 225.

I can't imagine how any of you who have been following and supporting the business might be feeling having heard the news, nor how those who still work at Heritage feel, having had to say goodbye to some friends colleagues, but it is all definitely incomparable to those who no longer work at 225 Parsons anymore. I hope that in sharing transparently why we had to make decisions and addressing immediately some outstanding concerns, that there will be a better understanding of what happened and why. 

I’d like to start by emphasising the core reason - our goal was and continues to be to return Heritage to a place of stability and sustainability.

Though this is a tough statement to stomach and seems hypocritical when former members of the team now have complete instability in their personal lives, there are still a lot of our treasured craftsmen and colleagues who continue to work at the factory. Instability and unsustainable business practice would ultimately over time result in everybody losing their jobs. 

As I shared in previous posts, we are really trying to look ahead at the next 5-10 years, and it was an essential decision to focus on improving the quality of our guitars - otherwise it would be impossible to compete in today’s market. However, the only way we could do this as a business and to keep producing custom guitars (plans for which I will be able to share soon) was to decide to make fewer guitars, and change the sales strategy for 2018. 

Some companies choose to solve their problems by lowering the quality of their instruments and force dealers to buy more at the same price, but this is not something we could accept or feel right doing because it is a downward spiral. Guitars are crafted works of art and should grow in value over time, like all the guitars historically built in 225 that we know and love - guitars that lose a huge amount of value the minute they leave the shop shows that the system is not working right. 

Making the decision to build fewer guitars than we were staffed up for, meant that there needed to be a reduction in workforce to right size the business and the reason it happened all at once was that we felt it was more respectful to do it all at once instead of unpleasantly over an extended time period like some other companies do. In truth, there was a greater reduction than expected. This was not by choice but there were some additional colleagues who chose to leave who we had hoped would have stayed, but it is important to reiterate that there are no further changes planned and the factory is now looking for replacements. 

You guys are right. This shit is sad. Unfortunately, the sad reality is that when running a business, management often has to choose between the lesser of two evils, and we had to decide to shed tears today instead of writing a eulogy tomorrow. 

The silver lining is now that we have a stable business and road ahead looks bright.

I hope this post helps in some way and I will continue to do my best to share transparently like this in the future unless you would prefer me not to. 

With respect, 
Meng

man, this Kuok is a smooth move, assuming it's really him posting.

Personally, I don't see any point in these posts.  There's nothing to be said.  I'll see what kind of instruments come out of 225 and judge by the results.

 

[High Flying Bird]

1 hour ago, LittleLeroy said:

Personally, I don't see any point in these posts.  There's nothing to be said.  I'll see what kind of instruments come out of 225 and judge by the results.

 

Leroy, if it were not for this forum Heritage Guitar would not be what it became over the last eleven years.  The owners would have shut the doors and gone to Pine or Doster Lake to hang out and fish several years ago.  People from all over the Untied States traveled to Kzoo and toured the famed 225 Parsons because of this forum.  These travelers met the owners, guitar builders, their families and went home and bought guitars. 

I have stayed at one of the worker's home.  I have helped cook a meal for the rest of the people who they invited to stay one year.  We got a good deal on the ribeye from Hardings across the street. 

I do not mean this to sound harsh but if you do not see the point in these post you are clearly not a part of the brotherhood of this forum.  After meeting a person you can't just say, "Fuck it.  If the guitars are just as good I could care less."   I suspect you would feel much like a lot of us if you had met these people and their families.  If you can make it to Kzoo this summer you can meet these people -just not at 225 Parsons St. 

[rockabilly69]

On 2/24/2018 at 7:47 PM, deytookerjaabs said:

 

 

Fair points and I agree with you on following formulas to exacting specs for exacting results. 

 

On the flip side from a pure musicians perspective I, as I'm sure many others, have picked up instruments that had everything wrong with them in accordance with "common wisdom" that sounded wonderful in my hands for whatever reason. The more exacting guitars are, the more they follow someone else's concept of greatness. 

Okay I will come out of the shadows for this post... DeeTooker why can't you see that old world craftsmanship can go hand in hand with tight tolerances, and that better techniques don't have to lead to vanilla guitars. You can cut all the guitar bodies with CNC machines, but if the pickups have that potted slightly microphonic character that companies like Throbak wind into them (consistently may I add) you will hear the differences between guitars, after all much of the primary tone of a great guitar still comes from the wood, and if the wood is good and the tighter tolerances are achieved with better production techniques the chance of getting a magical guitar will have to go up with the chance of getting a dud going down. As I've stated in my posts on other forums I had HUGE problems with the nut cuts and the fretwork on ALL of my H150s. And if strings are choking and not staying in tune, that doesn't help the primary tone!

And the prices of new Heritages are going up to Gibson custom shop levels so in my mind they better deliver the goods to the level of the custom shop LPs that I own or why should I buck up for lesser quality. When you could buy a used excellent condition H150 for $900 to $1200 bucks they were a good deal, and great fixer uppers, as a matter of fact that's how I got into Heritages, but for the new prices they are asking, they better deliver the goods. Personally I got sick of hearing about the mojo of Heritage when many times I saw pics of sloppy factory areas at 225, and on the guitars continued terrible fretwork and bad setups. My last Heritage guitar that I bought new said Seth Lover pickups on the inside label and was shipped with Pearly Gates pickups, and one of the allen screws was missing out of the Tonepros bridge. On an expensive guitar I want attention to detail. I'm not asking for perfection, but I want playable out of the box, great playability I will have my luthier attend to, or I will do it myself if I have the time (I play almost daily), but out of the box it should intonate well, be devoid of buzzes, and have a respectable playing height, none of my Heritages fit that bill when I first got them. Hell my Norlin Era L5s guitars which have had hardly a screw turned on them intonate better and play with considerably lower actions than any of my Heritages ever did when I got them. 

That said I'm sorry many of you have had your friends lose their job, but if anyone lost their job because they didn't want to step up to the new level of quality the company is shooting for, then hell, that's on them. As a pro-musician I always have to evolve to keep my competitive edge and to keep working in the industry, I expect the same out of the companies that make my guitars. Personally I'm rooting for the new company to take Heritage to higher level. I like the the idea of Edwin Wilson coming aboard. He was instrumental in raising the quality of Gibson Custom Shop guitars. Let's see what the future brings.

And having a limited number guitars offered that are built to a consistent high standard is a good idea in my mind.

Okay there's my 2 cents of blowhard guitar nonsense.

[deytookerjaabs]

1 hour ago, rockabilly69 said:

Okay I will come out of the shadows for this post... DeeTooker why can't you see that old world craftsmanship can go hand in hand with tight tolerances, and that better techniques don't have to lead to vanilla guitars. You can cut all the guitar bodies with CNC machines, but if the pickups have that potted slightly microphonic character that companies like Throbak wind into them (consistently may I add) you will hear the differences between guitars, after all much of the primary tone of a great guitar still comes from the wood, and if the wood is good and the tighter tolerances are achieved with better production techniques the chance of getting a magical guitar will have to go up with the chance of getting a dud going down. As I've stated in my posts on other forums I had HUGE problems with the nut cuts and the fretwork on ALL of my H150s. And if strings are choking and not staying in tune, that doesn't help the primary tone!

And the prices of new Heritages are going up to Gibson custom shop levels so in my mind they better deliver the goods to the level of the custom shop LPs that I own or why should I buck up for lesser quality. When you could buy a used excellent condition H150 for $900 to $1200 bucks they were a good deal, and great fixer uppers, as a matter of fact that's how I got into Heritages, but for the new prices they are asking, they better deliver the goods. Personally I got sick of hearing about the mojo of Heritage when many times I saw pics of sloppy factory areas at 225, and on the guitars continued terrible fretwork and bad setups. My last Heritage guitar that I bought new said Seth Lover pickups on the inside label and was shipped with Pearly Gates pickups, and one of the allen screws was missing out of the Tonepros bridge. On an expensive guitar I want attention to detail. I'm not asking for perfection, but I want playable out of the box, great playability I will have my luthier attend to, or I will do it myself if I have the time (I play almost daily), but out of the box it should intonate well, be devoid of buzzes, and have a respectable playing height, none of my Heritages fit that bill when I first got them. Hell my Norlin Era L5s guitars which have had hardly a screw turned on them intonate better and play with considerably lower actions than any of my Heritages ever did when I got them. 

That said I'm sorry many of you have had your friends lose their job, but if anyone lost their job because they didn't want to step up to the new level of quality the company is shooting for, then hell, that's on them. As a pro-musician I always have to evolve to keep my competitive edge and to keep working in the industry, I expect the same out of the companies that make my guitars. Personally I'm rooting for the new company to take Heritage to higher level. I like the the idea of Edwin Wilson coming aboard. He was instrumental in raising the quality of Gibson Custom Shop guitars. Let's see what the future brings.

And having a limited number guitars offered that are built to a consistent high standard is a good idea in my mind.

Okay there's my 2 cents of blowhard guitar nonsense.

 

 

The "Vanilla" aspect has everything to do with just that...tolerances. Literally the only thing separating modern guitar in this respect is, as you said, the wood and the neck carve then the higher you go the less differences there are in these too. If you want to celebrate that because you find the vintage clone to be the perfect formula, that's fine and by no means incorrect, it's all a personal thang. Me, I like when I pick up a 90's H535 they all seem to have a bit different neck set/angle, fretboard thickness, fret profiles, neck carve, body weight, etc, you can TELL they were hand built if you set a few side by side because of the contrasting elements. Same goes with the rest of the lineup. Each piece is rather unique, much like instruments from the way, way, way old days from Joseph Bohmann to Llloyd Loar. 

 

Pick up a few old L-3's (been hunting them lately!), they don't have an ideal neck carve, or exacting top carves, definitely not exacting in weight, and every feature from the rosette to the heel carve is by no means to exacting standards either. Now, find one you like, and have some modern company clone it, and all the tops will be the same, same necks, same everything, and probably a .5lb (more or less) weight variance. It's just a different philosophy of building, the idea that there's ONE ideal to follow and only a boutique builder or "custom shop" knows better. 

 

Heritage was a Luthier Shop, but more importantly it wasn't a guitar factory. It was shop where you could get anything from a Super 400 type guitar to a Super Strat built by the same few people on any given day with superb results at a smokin' price. Something I appreciate and also something boutiques or "custom shops" aren't capable of unless you have the 1 experienced guy at the top build it for brickload of cash.

 

I don't lament that Heritage survives but I also don't celebrate the fact that it appears to be turning into a guitar factory, I don't applaud less diversity. 

 

My view has nothing to do with brand loyalty, I just am saddened to see such a rare treat go but agree that all things must come to pass.  

[notbillgelder]

3 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

Okay I will come out of the shadows for this post...

Hey Daniel,   I am glad you have returned from the shadows. Your insight and knowledge has be sorely missed on this forum.

[davesultra]

18 minutes ago, notbillgelder said:

Hey Daniel,   I am glad you have returned from the shadows. Your insight and knowledge has be sorely missed on this forum.

I concur.

[Kuz]

I personally have never had a playability issue with the over 12 Heritages (it may be 13 or 14) that I have owned.  I HAVE ALWAYS with ANY GUITAR from ANY COMPANY had to change the setup to my personal taste.  This has included on EVERY guitar I have owned; CUSTOM PLEK'd frets, action, nut slots width, nut slots depth, file or change saddles, and truss rod adjustment.

So I do acknowledge that some mistakes larger than setup issues have come out of Heritage, but I EXPECT with every guitar I buy, that I will have to do the above to make it play the way I want it to play.  

I don't think a better "setup" is going to make Heritage Guitars take over Gibson.  I bought over 12 Heritage guitars for one reason.... THEIR HERITAGE TO THE PAST ICONIC GUITARS AND THE WAY THEY WERE MADE.

Every company should strive for a better product.  I am just feel that something is not adding up. 

     -Q. ALL 12 EMPLOYEES (who make $9/hr) were not listening to management directives?  Really, all 12?

     -It was said in an earlier post that more employees worked at Heritage than BEFORE "Archie & the gang" bought Heritage. 

               Q. Well who's responsible for OVER-hiring?  A. The new regime.

     -Q. Why was the factory overhauled to extravagance if a significant lower number of guitars are only needed to be produced?  Q. And whose responsible for that action? A. The new regime.

     -Q. How long until the CNC machines come a rolling in?

 

**** Bottom line is that I can buy an amazing guitar from Gibson (yes, my Memphis '64 345 is amazing), my 3 Collings guitars are PERFECT and the best guitars made in my opinion, my 2 McInturff Carolinas are the best LP Bursts I have ever heard or played, and PRS are amazing guitars as well.  We are in the GOLDEN ERA of perfect guitars.  The tone has always been 99% from great wood.  So my point,  now that Heritage Guitar has NO HERITAGE why wouldn't I just buy a Collings, McInturff, CS Gibson, or PRS that will hold it's value better?   The Heritage in Heritage Guitars is gone, it's just another Carvin/Ibanez/"Brand X" guitar company. ****** 

 

[ElNumero]

22 minutes ago, Kuz said:

I personally have never had a playability issue with the over 12 Heritages (it may be 13 or 14) that I have owned.  I HAVE ALWAYS with ANY GUITAR from ANY COMPANY had to change the setup to my personal taste.  This has included on EVERY guitar I have owned; CUSTOM PLEK'd frets, action, nut slots width, nut slots depth, file or change saddles, and truss rod adjustment.

So I do acknowledge that some mistakes larger than setup issues have come out of Heritage, but I EXPECT with every guitar I buy, that I will have to do the above to make it play the way I want it to play.  

I don't think a better "setup" is going to make Heritage Guitars take over Gibson.  I bought over 12 Heritage guitars for one reason.... THEIR HERITAGE TO THE PAST ICONIC GUITARS AND THE WAY THEY WERE MADE.

Every company should strive for a better product.  I am just feel that something is not adding up. 

     -Q. ALL 12 EMPLOYEES (who make $9/hr) were not listening to management directives?  Really, all 12?

     -It was said in an earlier post that more employees worked at Heritage than BEFORE "Archie & the gang" bought Heritage. 

               Q. Well who's responsible for OVER-hiring?  A. The new regime.

     -Q. Why was the factory overhauled to extravagance if a significant lower number of guitars are only needed to be produced?  Q. And whose responsible for that action? A. The new regime.

     -Q. How long until the CNC machines come a rolling in?

 

**** Bottom line is that I can buy an amazing guitar from Gibson (yes, my Memphis '64 345 is amazing), my 3 Collings guitars are PERFECT and the best guitars made in my opinion, my 2 McInturff Carolinas are the best LP Bursts I have ever heard or played, and PRS are amazing guitars as well.  We are in the GOLDEN ERA of perfect guitars.  The tone has always been 99% from great wood.  So my point,  now that Heritage Guitar has NO HERITAGE why wouldn't I just buy a Collings, McInturff, CS Gibson, or PRS that will hold it's value better?   The Heritage in Heritage Guitars is gone, it's just another Carvin/Ibanez/"Brand X" guitar company. ****** 

 

Good points John, but does "holding its value better" really mean anything when YOU buy guitars to keep, and not with the intention of reselling in the future? I feel at peace knowing who built my Heritage stable of guitars, and I know that Jim, Marv, Bill and Ren were still involved. I know that Arnie and Charlie were involved. And that to me, IS the MOJO that everybody keeps referring to in this thread. Would I buy a NEW Heritage produced under the auspices of the NEW regime (knowing full well that 13 people were let go (many that I knew as well) that were involved in making some of my personal Heritages? I really don't know, but I am inclined to say no. Just like John, I  have no quality issues with my current Heritages which range in model years from 1992 to 2016, the difference is, I am not nearly as fussy as John about hardware and setups.

[koula901]

12 hours ago, Genericmusic said:

 

[Kuz]

44 minutes ago, ElNumero said:

Good points John, but does "holding its value better" really mean anything when YOU buy guitars to keep, and not with the intention of reselling in the future? I feel at peace knowing who built my Heritage stable of guitars, and I know that Jim, Marv, Bill and Ren were still involved. I know that Arnie and Charlie were involved. And that to me, IS the MOJO that everybody keeps referring to in this thread. Would I buy a NEW Heritage produced under the auspices of the NEW regime (knowing full well that 13 people were let go (many that I knew as well) that were involved in making some of my personal Heritages? I really don't know, but I am inclined to say no. Just like John, I  have no quality issues with my current Heritages which range in model years from 1992 to 2016, the difference is, I am not nearly as fussy as John about hardware and setups.

Holding value is always part of the equation.  But Will,  I was talking about new Heritages.   My 3 Pre-Plaza Heritages aren't going anywhere.  Two were custom orders that I made, spec'd to my wishes & desires.  The other (Florentine Golden Eagle) may never be produced again.

I considered the "retention value of Heritage guitars" much much more now, than to Pre-Plaza guitars.  This is because they were handmade by artisans I knew and I figured that loss in resale value was something I was willing to pay.  I CHOSE Pre-Plaza Hertiages over Gibsons, Collings, PRS, ect.

With Post-Plaza guitars, I am trying to understand why I would buy a "Post-Plaza Heritage" over a Collings (especially), Gibson, or PRS, if I could have the same or better guitar with a better retention value, similar price, and an easier guitar to sell if I chose to years later.

Bottom line....... is there is no reason for me to buy a new Heritage over other companies' guitars now.   I am serious.

I would be happy to hear counterpoints on why I should.  Sell me.  What is this company's identity?  

Like I said, I can go 1.5hrs South to Willcutt guitars and play all the Collings & PRS guitars I want.  I can handpick the best one.  I can call Wildwood guitars and have them video A/B any Gibson I want, hear the opinion, and buy over the phone.

Somebody tell me why buying a new Heritage makes any sense?   (Rant over.  Doubt I will say much more on this topic).

[JeffB]

1 hour ago, Kuz said:

I personally have never had a playability issue with the over 12 Heritages (it may be 13 or 14) that I have owned.  I HAVE ALWAYS with ANY GUITAR from ANY COMPANY had to change the setup to my personal taste.  This has included on EVERY guitar I have owned; CUSTOM PLEK'd frets, action, nut slots width, nut slots depth, file or change saddles, and truss rod adjustment.

So I do acknowledge that some mistakes larger than setup issues have come out of Heritage, but I EXPECT with every guitar I buy, that I will have to do the above to make it play the way I want it to play.  

I don't think a better "setup" is going to make Heritage Guitars take over Gibson.  I bought over 12 Heritage guitars for one reason.... THEIR HERITAGE TO THE PAST ICONIC GUITARS AND THE WAY THEY WERE MADE.

Every company should strive for a better product.  I am just feel that something is not adding up. 

     -Q. ALL 12 EMPLOYEES (who make $9/hr) were not listening to management directives?  Really, all 12?

     -It was said in an earlier post that more employees worked at Heritage than BEFORE "Archie & the gang" bought Heritage. 

               Q. Well who's responsible for OVER-hiring?  A. The new regime.

     -Q. Why was the factory overhauled to extravagance if a significant lower number of guitars are only needed to be produced?  Q. And whose responsible for that action? A. The new regime.

     -Q. How long until the CNC machines come a rolling in?

 

**** Bottom line is that I can buy an amazing guitar from Gibson (yes, my Memphis '64 345 is amazing), my 3 Collings guitars are PERFECT and the best guitars made in my opinion, my 2 McInturff Carolinas are the best LP Bursts I have ever heard or played, and PRS are amazing guitars as well.  We are in the GOLDEN ERA of perfect guitars.  The tone has always been 99% from great wood.  So my point,  now that Heritage Guitar has NO HERITAGE why wouldn't I just buy a Collings, McInturff, CS Gibson, or PRS that will hold it's value better?   The Heritage in Heritage Guitars is gone, it's just another Carvin/Ibanez/"Brand X" guitar company. ****** 

 

Exactly.

Heritage Inc was all about the old Heritage Inc for me. Any interest I had in Heritage guitars began and ended right there.

To me it seems like the new Heritage inc is just a defacto type arrangement, its only in name with no real claim or rights to what came before them.

 

 

 

[Gitfiddler]

Welcome back, Daniel.  I too have missed your honest and often pointed assessments of your Heritage guitars. 

As far as set-ups, fretwork, and sloppy or tight nut work are concerned, I've had to have almost every new or used guitar adjusted one way or another...mostly minor.  That includes Gibson Custom Shop and other makers.  My many (new and used) Heritages have only had minor adjustments.

The ONLY guitars I've not had any 'issues' with were made by PRS and Roger Giffin.  That level of guitar making perfection is rare however, and comes at a high entry fee.  

So Heritage may or may not need to up its QC game if they are raising prices, but the commitment to do so  has been expressed by the new owners.  That was loud and clear at NAMM.

Unfortunately, what we are all facing now is a new regime taking over the Heritage brand, and cutting costs by employee terminations, AFTER pouring millions of dollars into the factory for upgrades, etc.  The other issue is how HOC feels about all of the recent uproar.  We are watching very carefully and hope for the best, but it doesn't look good from this man's perspective.

[davesultra]

I too see no reason to purchase guitars from the new incarnation of The Heritage. To quote Mr. rock (and sadly I might add), “Game over”. 

[kidsmoke]

Aren't Bill Paige, Jim Duerloo, Pete Farmer and Curly still there, along with a dozen other holdovers, using much of the same machinery, at 225 Parsons? That was my understanding. If so, Jim, the man who designed the millenium, may take exception to this notion.

2 hours ago, Kuz said:

  now that Heritage Guitar has NO HERITAGE why wouldn't I just buy a Collings, McInturff, CS Gibson, or PRS that will hold it's value better?   The Heritage in Heritage Guitars is gone, it's just another Carvin/Ibanez/"Brand X" guitar company. ****** 

 But I'm speculating. I don't know exactly who's in place or how they feel today. I just feel so much of what's being put out there is emotionally biased, and not enough weight is being given to what is. Only to what is no longer. 

[davesultra]

16 minutes ago, kidsmoke said:

 

 But I'm speculating. I don't know exactly who's in place or how they feel today. I just feel so much of what's being put out there is emotionally biased, and not enough weight is being given to what is. Only to what is no longer. 

To me, what is no longer “is” what made it “what it was”. (Pardon my poor use of quotation marks)

[rockabilly69]

5 hours ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 

 

The "Vanilla" aspect has everything to do with just that...tolerances. Literally the only thing separating modern guitar in this respect is, as you said, the wood and the neck carve then the higher you go the less differences there are in these too. If you want to celebrate that because you find the vintage clone to be the perfect formula, that's fine and by no means incorrect, it's all a personal thang. Me, I like when I pick up a 90's H535 they all seem to have a bit different neck set/angle, fretboard thickness, fret profiles, neck carve, body weight, etc, you can TELL they were hand built if you set a few side by side because of the contrasting elements. Same goes with the rest of the lineup. Each piece is rather unique, much like instruments from the way, way, way old days from Joseph Bohmann to Llloyd Loar. 

 

Pick up a few old L-3's (been hunting them lately!), they don't have an ideal neck carve, or exacting top carves, definitely not exacting in weight, and every feature from the rosette to the heel carve is by no means to exacting standards either. Now, find one you like, and have some modern company clone it, and all the tops will be the same, same necks, same everything, and probably a .5lb (more or less) weight variance. It's just a different philosophy of building, the idea that there's ONE ideal to follow and only a boutique builder or "custom shop" knows better. 

 

Heritage was a Luthier Shop, but more importantly it wasn't a guitar factory. It was shop where you could get anything from a Super 400 type guitar to a Super Strat built by the same few people on any given day with superb results at a smokin' price. Something I appreciate and also something boutiques or "custom shops" aren't capable of unless you have the 1 experienced guy at the top build it for brickload of cash.

 

I don't lament that Heritage survives but I also don't celebrate the fact that it appears to be turning into a guitar factory, I don't applaud less diversity. 

 

My view has nothing to do with brand loyalty, I just am saddened to see such a rare treat go but agree that all things must come to pass.  

 

[rockabilly69]

Sorry I meant to post this in my reply. The only ideal I care about is workmanship! I can see your opinion if any era of the Heritage guitar company produced instruments on the level as the Lloyd Loar era. Or even the late 50's/early 60s semi-solid solid body era of Gibson, but they have never had that era. As I said, when they were knocking out cheaper guitars as in the solid body variants, they were a pretty good deal, especially if you could find one with good wood and then mod it to the way you like it as I have done with mine. It took me a while to find light ones as many Heritages are boat anchors. And calling them a "luthier shop" is disrespectful to  the luthiers who care to pay attention to the fine points of sending out a guitar ready to play! My luthier would take serious offense to that! What I would like to see is a combination of modern and vintage. I don't mind a a little stain bleed into bindings, or a binding dot a little eschewed, or slight differences in top carves and neck shapes, but I do want attention to detail when it comes to the stuff that makes a guitar play consistently without buzzing. And I don't want to pay custom luthier shop money, for a guitar that is not finished before it goes out the door! In the past 15 years I have easily bought and sold over 50 guitars, looking for a voice that represents what I hear in my head. And my two Heritage H150s are still with me, and if the company would have set them up the way that I did with mine, I would have gladly paid more money for them. I paid around $2200 for my newer H150, another $200 for hardware, $300 for pickups, and about $150 for the fret and nut work. And they are far from vanilla sounding with proper consistent setups. So that's what I'm hoping the new Heritage company shoots for, consistent HIGH quality! I would love to buy a new Heritage and come here and boast that I didn't have to do a damn thing to it and how wonderful it sounds. 

 

[kidsmoke]

1 hour ago, davesultra said:

To me, what is no longer “is” what made it “what it was”. (Pardon my poor use of quotation marks)

fair enough. And I wouldn't fault you for it.

In answer to Kuz's hypothetical, that being that all things being equal, why buy a Heritage if the Heritage itself is gone? in my mind, for myself, I still have a connection to Heritage I don't have to those other shops, I still know guys there...guys that have decades of experience AT Parson's street, guys that need to make a mortgage payment, guys that are putting their heart and soul into these guitars. It's not the same as it was several years ago, but it's still stronger personal connection than I feel to PRS or Collings etc etc. No one at Collings ever took me to his bench and told about building a better SG at Guild 45 plus years ago before returning Gibson, and then stayed at Heritage. No one at Collings COULD tell that story. That guy is teaching the 12 remaining employees what he knows, alongside Pete Farmer, a luthier of my vintage who I know by name, and whom I know has deeper understanding of "the Heritage" than ANY of us on this forum. 

In my mind, all things being equal, they would still have the edge for me, based on intangibles for certain, but they still have the edge. That doesn't mean I'm not heartsick about lives that have been impacted by recent moves, or saddened to see such a distinct departure from all that we have held dear. It just means that I'd still like to see Heritage guitars succeed, and still feel that they stake a greater claim to authenticity than any other builder. 

But, that's just me. 

[rockabilly69]

5 hours ago, notbillgelder said:

Hey Daniel,   I am glad you have returned from the shadows. Your insight and knowledge has be sorely missed on this forum.

 

4 hours ago, davesultra said:

I concur.

Hi guys, I've been liking staying in the shadows as I've been focusing more on recording than I have been buying and modding guitars. I have purchased a few guitars but haven't modded them a bit, and they didn't need it. One was a Shell PINK (looks like Pepto Bismal) G&L Nitro Legacy with rosewood fingerboard, and the other, a Gretsch 6118T Player's Edition Double Anniversary. Both of them are FANTASTIC instruments. 

 

[rockabilly69]

On 2/24/2018 at 7:15 PM, ThroBak said:

Listen, I get it. The mojo and history built into a Heritage of Kalamazoo era Gibson is undeniable. That is why I own a bunch of both. I even feel the same way about the vintage winding machines I use to make pickups. My feeling is by using and maintaining the old machines or old guitars I am honoring people that made and used them for decades. Whether it is a machine that was made to last or a guitar, the people that made them and used them have some of their best years invested in them. If you have the privilege of owning their creation, you pay tribute to their hard work by respecting the machine or guitar and using it as it was meant to be.

Part of the charm of old guitars and pickups is their individuality. But the reality is this charm is a double edged sword potentially. There are vintage P.A.F.'s that sound magical and others that sound dull. My goal is to understand what made them magical and make it repeatable. To do this though I have to record, control and repeat parameters that were not even on the radar for Gibson back in the day.

My point with this is that if Heritage has better control over what makes their guitars great, the more great guitars you will get. It means paying attention to the details and concentrating on the details that need the hands on touch and expertise of a craftsman. If Heritage does lean right their guitars will get more individual attention and craftsmanship than ever before. To me it sounds like that is what Heritage is dedicated to doing. You are going to get a guitar with more personality, not less.

 

this is EXACTLY how I feel!

[deytookerjaabs]

1 hour ago, rockabilly69 said:

Sorry I meant to post this in my reply. The only ideal I care about is workmanship! I can see your opinion if any era of the Heritage guitar company produced instruments on the level as the Lloyd Loar era. Or even the late 50's/early 60s semi-solid solid body era of Gibson, but they have never had that era. As I said, when they were knocking out cheaper guitars as in the solid body variants, they were a pretty good deal, especially if you could find one with good wood and then mod it to the way you like it as I have done with mine. It took me a while to find light ones as many Heritages are boat anchors. And calling them a "luthier shop" is disrespectful to  the luthiers who care to pay attention to the fine points of sending out a guitar ready to play! My luthier would take serious offense to that! What I would like to see is a combination of modern and vintage. I don't mind a a little stain bleed into bindings, or a binding dot a little eschewed, or slight differences in top carves and neck shapes, but I do want attention to detail when it comes to the stuff that makes a guitar play consistently without buzzing. And I don't want to pay custom luthier shop money, for a guitar that is not finished before it goes out the door! In the past 15 years I have easily bought and sold over 50 guitars, looking for a voice that represents what I hear in my head. And my two Heritage H150s are still with me, and if the company would have set them up the way that I did with mine, I would have gladly paid more money for them. I paid around $2200 for my newer H150, another $200 for hardware, $300 for pickups, and about $150 for the fret and nut work. And they are far from vanilla sounding with proper consistent setups. So that's what I'm hoping the new Heritage company shoots for, consistent HIGH quality! I would love to buy a new Heritage and come here and boast that I didn't have to do a damn thing to it and how wonderful it sounds. 

 

 

 

The reason I don't get into "Setup" "Buzzing" arguments is because I went to an apprenticeship for just that and more. I have all the tools I need to create and measure fret lines a hair below a custom plek job (not to be confused with factory plek setups). I've done work to every brand I've had to my preference and I've seen "luthiers" ignorantly malign things against their preference. You see, there isn't a national/international standard in the world of lutherie, period, and two guys with equal experience can completely disagree on methods of planing frets etc. Go watch Glaser's workshop on his many various plek patterns to suit various players and you'll see a world of information open up. I can guarantee your Heritage had the neck put straight, then a level and crown before it went out the door. It's wood, it swells, shrinks, and settles immensely in it's first year. If you don't think boutique brands can need some work right off the bat you haven't spent much time in a big shop! As CSGM we did just that, drop a line to the Music Gallery or Glasers and see if they run plek on new boutiques, lol. 

 

So, again, that's not my thing to defame one player versus another as I've seen "issues" from everywhere. 

 

Meanwhile, THIS is a standard I look at for fine lutherie:

 

 

Not "They are not good luthiers because I needed PAF clones and my Les Paul had buzzing." In which case, everyone sucks. 

 

 

 

 

As for G&L, here's one fresh out of the box after a custom order:

Yeah it got plek'd, after they were incapable of seating the frets, some gaps your fingernail could fit in. 

 

[rockabilly69]

3 hours ago, Gitfiddler said:

Welcome back, Daniel.  I too have missed your honest and often pointed assessments of your Heritage guitars. 

As far as set-ups, fretwork, and sloppy or tight nut work are concerned, I've had to have almost every new or used guitar adjusted one way or another...mostly minor.  That includes Gibson Custom Shop and other makers.  My many (new and used) Heritages have only had minor adjustments.

The ONLY guitars I've not had any 'issues' with were made by PRS and Roger Giffin.  That level of guitar making perfection is rare however, and comes at a high entry fee.  

So Heritage may or may not need to up its QC game if they are raising prices, but the commitment to do so  has been expressed by the new owners.  That was loud and clear at NAMM.

Unfortunately, what we are all facing now is a new regime taking over the Heritage brand, and cutting costs by employee terminations, AFTER pouring millions of dollars into the factory for upgrades, etc.  The other issue is how HOC feels about all of the recent uproar.  We are watching very carefully and hope for the best, but it doesn't look good from this man's perspective.

Well I hope for the best too:)