Change at Heritage Guitar

[LittleLeroy]

11 hours ago, High Flying Bird said:

Leroy, if it were not for this forum Heritage Guitar would not be what it became over the last eleven years.  The owners would have shut the doors and gone to Pine or Doster Lake to hang out and fish several years ago.  People from all over the Untied States traveled to Kzoo and toured the famed 225 Parsons because of this forum.  These travelers met the owners, guitar builders, their families and went home and bought guitars. 

I have stayed at one of the worker's home.  I have helped cook a meal for the rest of the people who they invited to stay one year.  We got a good deal on the ribeye from Hardings across the street. 

I do not mean this to sound harsh but if you do not see the point in these post you are clearly not a part of the brotherhood of this forum.  After meeting a person you can't just say, "Fuck it.  If the guitars are just as good I could care less."   I suspect you would feel much like a lot of us if you had met these people and their families.  If you can make it to Kzoo this summer you can meet these people -just not at 225 Parsons St. 

Hello Sir!  I was speaking specifically of Kuok Meng Ru's posts, not the posts of Forum members.  I regret that was not clear!  I should have said "his" instead of "these".  I do understand and empathize with the feelings being expressed by yourself and other Forum folk.  

 

12 hours ago, LittleLeroy said:

man, this Kuok is a smooth move, assuming it's really him posting.

Personally, I don't see any point in these posts.  There's nothing to be said.  I'll see what kind of instruments come out of 225 and judge by the results.

 

 

[rockabilly69]

26 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 

 

The reason I don't get into "Setup" "Buzzing" arguments is because I went to an apprenticeship for just that and more. I have all the tools I need to create and measure fret lines a hair below a custom plek job (not to be confused with factory plek setups). I've done work to every brand I've had to my preference and I've seen "luthiers" ignorantly malign things against their preference. You see, there isn't a national/international standard in the world of lutherie, period, and two guys with equal experience can completely disagree on methods of planing frets etc. Go watch Glaser's workshop on his many various plek patterns to suit various players and you'll see a world of information open up. I can guarantee your Heritage had the neck put straight, then a level and crown before it went out the door. It's wood, it swells, shrinks, and settles immensely in it's first year. If you don't think boutique brands can need some work right off the bat you haven't spent much time in a big shop! As CSGM we did just that, drop a line to the Music Gallery or Glasers and see if they run plek on new boutiques, lol. 

 

So, again, that's not my thing to defame one player versus another as I've seen "issues" from everywhere. 

 

Meanwhile, THIS is a standard I look at for fine lutherie:

 

 

Not "They are not good luthiers because I needed PAF clones and my Les Paul had buzzing." In which case, everyone sucks. 

 

 

 

 

As for G&L, here's one fresh out of the box after a custom order:

Yeah it got plek'd, after they were incapable of seating the frets, some gaps your fingernail could fit in. 

 

Like you, I am also trained in guitar setup and with the right tools I can get the job done, and I have worked in the industry and played hundreds to thousands of guitars so I know what most companies are capable of, but the wood in my Heritages hasn't twisted of turned it was just terrible fret/nut work. And as I said, at used prices it didn't bother me, it's just when they started yanking the prices upwards. As for your taste in cool archtops, I think that's cool and you've mentioned and pictured some great guitars. If any of the great archtop "luthiers" at Heritage have been fired, they can still build on their own if need be and I would gladly support them if they turned out a great guitar. I don't own any solid top archtops and since I play acoustic guitar for a living I think I would like to add one to my stable but I would be just as picky about fretwork! I don't mind tweaking a trussrod or adjusting a bridge but most likely on an archtop, just like I do with acoustic guitars, I would buy locally and make sure the guitar has acclimated to the Utah climate where I live. 

[rockabilly69]

Oh on the plus side, Bandcamp has bought the Cakewalk brand that I have been recording with (SONAR Platinum) from Gibson and that has made my life better since SONAR is on all of my recording computers and is setup and working perfectly. I was quite pissed at Henry for stopping the development of the software!

[houndhome]

Can I add a quick hello and good to hear your comments again Dan,some I agree with,some I dont but always respect

your knowledge and wise words.From my point of view I have had no issues with any of the Heritages which I own but

I'm not a professional musician.Many hold PRS as an example of build exellence,I bought one in 1991 and it was only one of

only two new guitars which I have bought with a bent neck.Easily straightened after which I couldnt fault it,perfect except to

me it had no soul,and has only been out of the maybe 6 times since then.To me my Heritages have soul and I fear that this may

be what may be lost.

[Cassady]

This situation is a bit frustrating for me having recently taken the plunge into Heritage ownership by buying two guitars.

I thought I was investing in guitars made by a small company that really cared about both its employees and its customers.  I hope that the reductions came using seniority as a guideline (last hired, first fired) and that the employees were given a decent severance package, but this doesn't seem to be the case.  I'll definitely think long and hard before I consider buying another Heritage.

One of the music companies that I really admire is Analogman effects.  Part of this is because the Analogman founder, Mike Piera, is proud that during the last recession he never had to lay off any employees.  He managed to keep everyone that worked there in a job, even though some people got "moved around".  Analogman makes great pedals and also seems really care about the workers.

I want to spend my money with companies that value both their products and their employees.

I am glad that my guitars, which were made in March of last year, were made before last Friday's layoffs.

 

 

 

[Kuz]

5 hours ago, kidsmoke said:

Aren't Bill Paige, Jim Duerloo, Pete Farmer and Curly still there, along with a dozen other holdovers, using much of the same machinery, at 225 Parsons? That was my understanding. If so, Jim, the man who designed the millenium, may take exception to this notion.

 But I'm speculating. I don't know exactly who's in place or how they feel today. I just feel so much of what's being put out there is emotionally biased, and not enough weight is being given to what is. Only to what is no longer. 

As I understand, Curly is gone.  Bill, as I understand, hasn't been building guitars for many years.  Yes, as I understand, Jim & Pete are still there.

I have not heard anything about Ren.

If someone wants to confirm or correct me, that's fine with me. 

[ElNumero]

6 hours ago, Kuz said:

Holding value is always part of the equation.  But Will,  I was talking about new Heritages.   My 3 Pre-Plaza Heritages aren't going anywhere.  Two were custom orders that I made, spec'd to my wishes & desires.  The other (Florentine Golden Eagle) may never be produced again.

I considered the "retention value of Heritage guitars" much much more now, than to Pre-Plaza guitars.  This is because they were handmade by artisans I knew and I figured that loss in resale value was something I was willing to pay.  I CHOSE Pre-Plaza Hertiages over Gibsons, Collings, PRS, ect.

With Post-Plaza guitars, I am trying to understand why I would buy a "Post-Plaza Heritage" over a Collings (especially), Gibson, or PRS, if I could have the same or better guitar with a better retention value, similar price, and an easier guitar to sell if I chose to years later.

Bottom line....... is there is no reason for me to buy a new Heritage over other companies' guitars now.   I am serious.

I would be happy to hear counterpoints on why I should.  Sell me.  What is this company's identity?  

Like I said, I can go 1.5hrs South to Willcutt guitars and play all the Collings & PRS guitars I want.  I can handpick the best one.  I can call Wildwood guitars and have them video A/B any Gibson I want, hear the opinion, and buy over the phone.

Somebody tell me why buying a new Heritage makes any sense?   (Rant over.  Doubt I will say much more on this topic).

Interesting that you used the term "preplaza" and "postplaza"! I was just talking on the phone to Spectrum13 earlier today and I said to him that 10 years from now and beyond, people will be referring to their Heritage guitars as "pre-plazacorp" or "post-plazacorp" just as people refer to Fenders as Pre-CBS or Gibsons as Pre-Norlin. 

[brentrocks]

 

[ElNumero]

4 minutes ago, brentrocks said:

 

Thanks for sharing Brent

[LittleLeroy]

39 minutes ago, ElNumero said:

Thanks for sharing Brent

+1

 

[deytookerjaabs]

Well, geez, it's a shame to see these guys fired but I hope Heritage can get back to what's important and focus on machining R9's, R8's, R7's, and even R4's. Because, it's not like Gibson built so many they had to take a year off or anything like that. 

 

 

 

[Heritage1970]

1 hour ago, brentrocks said:

 

Thanks Brent! Hate seeing this...

[Steiner]

Wow

Everyone I bend over, I fart smoke rings.

Thanks for the post Sir Rocks!

[Gitfiddler]

wwmt.com (West Michigan)

14 Heritage Guitar Workers off the job as company heads in new direction

http://wwmt.com/news/local/14-heritage-guitar-workers-off-the-job-as-company-heads-in-new-direction

KALAMAZOO, Mich. — 

Fourteen Heritage Guitar workers are off the job on Tuesday as the historic company heads in a new direction and management says the new direction will elevate the company, while the fired workers disagree.

Newschannel 3 broke the news that Rolling Stone is partnering with Heritage to make the Kalamazoo factory a tourist destination.

Several workers say they were escorted off the property last week after a disagreement with management.

In all, 10 workers were fired while four others walked off the job in protest.

The workers say new management is incompetent and disrespectful to the workers who were continuing the tradition of hands-craftmanship at the historic 225 Parson Street factory.

While management confirms staffing changes were made, company officials contend the change will ensure the Heritage and Gibson tradition continues in Kalamazoo.

"Heritage, I think, is going to be a name only. People who bought it understand the history of 225 Parsons Street and they understand the Heritage name. I don't think they're going to perpetuate that and make guitars the same quality especially with hand-craftsmanship. They're not going to do it the same way,” former worker Ron Hough said.

Company officials released the following statement:

To ensure the short and long term sustainability of the business, staffing changes had to be made at the heritage guitar factory last week.

The decision to make these changes was not one that we took lightly and it was a sad day for everyone involved.

Our focus on building a foundation for 2018 and beyond requires an emphasis on quality over quantity. The heritage guitars team are committed to building a healthy and sustainable business that consistently produces amazing, high quality instruments for many years to come in Kalamazoo.

Newschannel 3 is told despite the changes, the partnership with Rolling Stone and Plazacorp is not in jeopardy.

The former workers also released a statement:

We’re the former Heritage Guitar craftsmen who were disrespectfully escorted out of the building on Friday with no notice. 10 were fired and an additional 4 left in support of our coworkers and friends. We could no longer work for the incompetent management that is this disrespectful to the craftspeople who were continuing the tradition of hand-craftsmanship that is and was Heritage guitar.

When ownership changed we were told that they understood what this building means to our community and what this company means to this building. Most of us were trained under the impeccable eye of quality by Marv Lamb which is what made Heritage Guitar what it has been for the last 30 years, an extension of this building and what it means to the local and guitar community. This building is a testament to true, hand-built craftsmanship. Some of the most valuable guitars in the world have come from this building. Heritage and the men that started it believed in continuing that hand-craftsmanship tradition.

Were those guitars flawless, no, because they were made by human hearts and hands. Are any of us perfect, no. Changes in production were implemented by management that resulted in less than Heritage quality. Their unwillingness to listen or understand the high quality standards resulted in the destruction of over 300 guitars.

Our years of experience have fallen on deaf ears and now the employees are being escape goated as to the reason for the drop in quality. None of us here are wealthy, or do it for the money. We did it for the love of the guitars. In fact, most of us worked for slightly over minimum wage with no medical benefits.

During the 100th Anniversary Celebration they expressed that they embraced those traditions, meanwhile they are bringing in CNC and Pleck machines which do not represent what the building and company stand for. All the while, accusing us of being resistant to change.

We understand that corporations have to meet their bottom-line and that their eye for quality may need to be 100%, which is not attainable through hand-craftsmanship.

None of us are perfect, but none of us feel like that justifies this type of treatment while they continue to perpetuate the story of hand-craftsmanship on the back of the true craftsman that made it what it was before the new owner took possession.

[Kuz]

28 minutes ago, Gitfiddler said:

 

 

28 minutes ago, Gitfiddler said:

 

The former workers also released a statement:

We’re the former Heritage Guitar craftsmen who were disrespectfully escorted out of the building on Friday with no notice. 10 were fired and an additional 4 left in support of our coworkers and friends. We could no longer work for the incompetent management that is this disrespectful to the craftspeople who were continuing the tradition of hand-craftsmanship that is and was Heritage guitar.

When ownership changed we were told that they understood what this building means to our community and what this company means to this building. Most of us were trained under the impeccable eye of quality by Marv Lamb which is what made Heritage Guitar what it has been for the last 30 years, an extension of this building and what it means to the local and guitar community. This building is a testament to true, hand-built craftsmanship. Some of the most valuable guitars in the world have come from this building. Heritage and the men that started it believed in continuing that hand-craftsmanship tradition.

Were those guitars flawless, no, because they were made by human hearts and hands. Are any of us perfect, no. Changes in production were implemented by management that resulted in less than Heritage quality. Their unwillingness to listen or understand the high quality standards resulted in the destruction of over 300 guitars.

Our years of experience have fallen on deaf ears and now the employees are being escape goated as to the reason for the drop in quality. None of us here are wealthy, or do it for the money. We did it for the love of the guitars. In fact, most of us worked for slightly over minimum wage with no medical benefits.

During the 100th Anniversary Celebration they expressed that they embraced those traditions, meanwhile they are bringing in CNC and Pleck machines which do not represent what the building and company stand for. All the while, accusing us of being resistant to change.

We understand that corporations have to meet their bottom-line and that their eye for quality may need to be 100%, which is not attainable through hand-craftsmanship.

None of us are perfect, but none of us feel like that justifies this type of treatment while they continue to perpetuate the story of hand-craftsmanship on the back of the true craftsman that made it what it was before the new owner took possession.

Who was it that said "This doesn't add up?  When are the CNC machines coming ?"   

Do I think CNC machines make a lesser guitar, No I don't .... but they sure as hell aren't handmade either.

What pisses me off the most is that this plan HAD to be in place before NAMM, where they knew Pete would be talking about "Old world craftmanship" and "Handmade Guitars at Heritage".  Essentially they knew he would be lying to customers, dealers, and guitarists.

If this is true, we have been fed a bunch of Bullshit from the beginning.  Why not just come clean from the beginning?   We were told emphatically at PSP 9 & 10; "No changes in how we produce Heritage Guitars.  Handmade is our Heritage."

Archie & Meng, if you lied to me..... "Sorry, I OUT"..... forever!!!!!  

[bolero]

wow.....I am very surprised at the mention of CNC s well; seems to fly in the face of "old world hand-craftsmanship "

is there a slim chance this is just a publicity stunt? it's gotten them more press than anything else in the last ~20 years, probably

 

 

[rockabilly69]

2 hours ago, deytookerjaabs said:

Well, geez, it's a shame to see these guys fired but I hope Heritage can get back to what's important and focus on machining R9's, R8's, R7's, and even R4's. Because, it's not like Gibson built so many they had to take a year off or anything like that.  I know your being tongue and cheek here, but I would love a sweet new R4:)

 

 

 

 

[deytookerjaabs]

11 minutes ago, rockabilly69 said:

 

So would I!!

But someone else already makes those just fine, those other guys. Actually, I almost bought a budget friendly late 70's MIJ Jeff Beck style a while back, the only thing that kept me from doing it was the online thing. Wrap Tails RULE. I buy stuff online, but I hate doing it all the same unless it's a retailer with a solid return policy. Still....it was a smokin' price. 

Honestly, all this commotion has me jonesin to get back into a Heritage but I'd have to sell/trade some things. Last year I walked into a rack of 5 H-150's in a shop in Ohio, found the right one for me but the guy wouldn't come off $1800 used even though "they've been here for a long time." Jabroni. It might still be there, hell, at that price they're probably all still there.  

 

 

[rockabilly69]

1 hour ago, deytookerjaabs said:

So would I!!

But someone else already makes those just fine, those other guys. Actually, I almost bought a budget friendly late 70's MIJ Jeff Beck style a while back, the only thing that kept me from doing it was the online thing. Wrap Tails RULE. I buy stuff online, but I hate doing it all the same unless it's a retailer with a solid return policy. Still....it was a smokin' price. 

Honestly, all this commotion has me jonesin to get back into a Heritage but I'd have to sell/trade some things. Last year I walked into a rack of 5 H-150's in a shop in Ohio, found the right one for me but the guy wouldn't come off $1800 used even though "they've been here for a long time." Jabroni. It might still be there, hell, at that price they're probably all still there.  

 

 

well then maybe we'll both be playing R4s of a sort:) I actually bought a R6 when I was last shopping so I'm a little low on cash:) 

 

 

[ThroBak]

1 hour ago, bolero said:

wow.....I am very surprised at the mention of CNC s well; seems to fly in the face of "old world hand-craftsmanship "

is there a slim chance this is just a publicity stunt? it's gotten them more press than anything else in the last ~20 years, probably

 

 

Heritage has been using all manner of jigs for years and even built their own duplicarver to do the jobs that don't require the time or skill of a craftsman. If Heritage can get a CNC machine to carve 5 tops in the time that it took their old duplicarver to do one top then what is the problem? If CNC can combine several operations that required the use of separate jigs into one operation then what is the problem? So CNC will do the rough out and nuts and bolts operations faster, great! In this instance, CNC is just the more efficient jig and duplicarver of yesterday. CNC will give the craftsmen and women more time to concentrate on the finish work like neck setting, neck shaping, binding, assembly.... heck even a Plek job requires finish work to remove the milling marks. Maybe this will allow Heritage to do things now like rolled binding that requires the work of a craftsman? There is no shortage of skilled hand work that needs to be done. CNC will just make it so upstream operations are faster and accurate and that means fewer potential problems for craftsmen downstream and that means better guitars in the end. The reality today is that many small boutique makers many here love also use small CNC machines to do the rough out work for the very same reason Heritage would want CNC.

[deytookerjaabs]

20 minutes ago, ThroBak said:

Heritage has been using all manner of jigs for years and even built their own duplicarver to do the jobs that don't require the time or skill of a craftsman. If Heritage can get a CNC machine to carve 5 tops in the time that it took their old duplicarver to do one top then what is the problem? If CNC can combine several operations that required the use of separate jigs into one operation then what is the problem? So CNC will do the rough out and nuts and bolts operations faster, great! In this instance, CNC is just the more efficient jig and duplicarver of yesterday. CNC will give the craftsmen and women more time to concentrate on the finish work like neck setting, neck shaping, binding, assembly.... heck even a Plek job requires finish work to remove the milling marks. Maybe this will allow Heritage to do things now like rolled binding that requires the work of a craftsman? There is no shortage of skilled hand work that needs to be done. CNC will just make it so there are fewer upstream problems and that means fewer problem for craftsmen downstream and that means better guitars in the end. The reality today is that many small boutique makers many here love also use small CNC machines to do the rough out work for the very same reason Heritage would want CNC.

 

Only the H-150's & Variants get the Duplididgideroo treatment

Yet, I can recall you once waxing poetic about how the circular Duplicarver was "important to the final outcome:"

(good read for anyone interested in Les Paul top carves, take note!)

I have to agree, the processes do effect the outcome 

https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?161370-Vintage-Top-Dish-Explained

Quote

You know I kind of think the circular carving method is an important part of the outcome. Since there is hand work in terms of sanding after the rough carve the character of the rough carve will determine the finished whether it is roughed out CNC or circular router. I bet they sanded just until the circular lines were gone. I think you would really have to duplicate the circular rough out to get it 100% right.

[JeffB]

 

I admire anyone who has the nads to go out in solidarity with their coworkers.


Sent from my SM-J120ZN using Tapatalk

[ThroBak]

17 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 

Only the H-150's & Variants get the Duplididgideroo treatment

Yet, I can recall you once waxing poetic about how the circular Duplicarver was "important to the final outcome:"

(good read for anyone interested in Les Paul top carves, take note!)

I have to agree, the processes do effect the outcome 

https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?161370-Vintage-Top-Dish-Explained

The process does matter but Heritage has the template that they can scan and the level of resolution of current CNC carving is much higher today. So for this process my guess it amounts to six of one and a half dozen of the other. The example I referenced in the above link was a very course linear rough out that Gibson used compared to the higher resolution circular rough out Heritage and some vintage Les Paul tops show evidence of. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[LittleLeroy]

32 minutes ago, JeffB said:

I admire anyone who has the nads to go out in solidarity with their coworkers.

 

+1 !!  

[LittleLeroy]

13 minutes ago, ThroBak said:

The process does matter but Heritage has the template that they can scan and the level of resolution of current CNC carving is much higher today. So for this process my guess it amounts to six of one and a half dozen of the other. The example I referenced in the above link was a very course linear rough out that Gibson used compared to the higher resolution circular rough out Heritage and some vintage Les Paul tops show evidence of. Correct me if I'm wrong.

"What is supposed about it? I guarantee you this body was made by Gibson. I have been going to this shop since the 80's. There is a rack full of old unfinished Gibson bodies and necks at this shop that has always been there. Give specifics if you have doubts.

That circular rough out is how Heritage does it. Heritage may have the old machines for all I know. Or Heritage may have made a smaller rig with hand routers. I know the Heritage set up eats routers for lunch so the latter may be the case. Either way it is a more detailed rough out than the linear set up Gibson now uses. 

Gibson dumped much of the equipment, machines, jigs etc. that made Bursts when they moved to Nashville. I think it was a case of get rid of this old slow crap. When in reality the old slow crap gave the best results."

The above was posted in 2009.  Are u saying that now a CNC is just as good?