Change at Heritage Guitar

[deytookerjaabs]

19 minutes ago, ThroBak said:

The process does matter but Heritage has the template that they can scan and the level of resolution of current CNC carving is much higher today. So for this process my guess it amounts to six of one and a half dozen of the other. The example I referenced in the above link was a very course linear rough out that Gibson used compared to the higher resolution circular rough out Heritage and some vintage Les Paul tops show evidence of. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I don't know the bit used and mechanical function behind the heritage circular carver but it's obviously a very different process.

 

That said, you vastly oversimplified the CNC's place in modern guitar factories. Visit PRS or Gibson Custom Shop, what you get from the white wood process is that the guitars to the employees are like getting a full guitar kit in the mail! Then, you just glue it together, do the fretwork & fret edges maybe a hair of extra neck sanding, light body & finish sanding, scrape or peel some binding, add parts, do a setup then pack it up. 

PRS/GCS is literally paint by number. Seriously, they slide in the necks then glue them, all the tolerances are exacting to the nTH degree. Once the CNC's move in it's a different world, especially with Edwin Wilson's experience. 

Are those bad guitars? No. 

Is that even remotely close to the "Heritage Tradition" which these fellas claimed to want to preserve wherein everything from the duplicarver/slackbelt to the neck setting via templates/chisels, to the neck heel carving, to the top carving on real archtops, to the sanding of the fingerboard, to the clamping processes, to so many other things are most certainly going to change once you go full CNC. Just because heritage had some tools that plugged into the wall didn't mean the operation was anything like a modern guitar factory. Not to mention, the art of building jigs/templates, knowing lines/angles and understanding geometry then being able to apply it which is what all the seasoned Heritage employees are capable of. That takes study & experience. 

 

 

 

Bottom line, they lied their butts off about the "Tradition," hired Edwin Wilson, and are becoming a paint by number hard tool guitar factory where before they were a open ended soft tooling environment full of folks who could also engineer said tools. 

[ThroBak]

I'm not a CNC expert but I have seen it at work and I believe current CNC could better that circular finish in that photo. My guess is it depends upon machine setting as to how fine a carve you choose to run. At the time of that post the Gary Moore BFG was the state of rough finishing at Gibson and it looked to be a rougher finish to me than the circular Heritage carve.

For me the question is can you have a guitar that incorporates CNC that has the soul that a great musical instrument has to have and I'm quite sure the answer is yes.

[LittleLeroy]

9 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said:

Bottom line, they lied their butts off about the "Tradition," hired Edwin Wilson, and are becoming a paint by number hard tool guitar factory where before they were a open ended soft tooling environment full of folks who could also engineer said tools. 

Yup!  And they're going to "conquer" the Asian market with the "world's finest American-made musical instruments", trading on the tradition and name of the Heritage brand.  When I saw that tag-line I knew Heritage was in for serious trouble.  

[Polo]

I wonder if they'll be updating to the official Heritage website to correctly represent the following:

• Not all of the employees in the scrolling promo footage are still with the company.
• Not all of the guitars shown in the footage are still being built. 
• The hallowed ground in which that footage was shot has been gutted and reconstructed for none guitar related use.
• The blue tags that once filed in Marv's top left pocket which were then applied to a work in progress are no longer in use.
• Not all of the machinery/tools/production methods shown in the footage will be in use for very much longer.

https://heritageguitars.com/

 

 

[deytookerjaabs]

16 minutes ago, LittleLeroy said:

Yup!  And they're going to "conquer" the Asian market with the "world's finest American-made musical instruments", trading on the tradition and name of the Heritage brand.  When I saw that tag-line I know Heritage was in for serious trouble.  

 

It's silly of me to care about this stuff. I think it's my DNA. When growing up and my Grandpa was still around he was a master carpenter pretty high up in the Union in Chicago. He built my grandparents house (now gone) and hundreds/thousands? of others.

He had a huge woodshop above their larger barn style garage along with a basement full of every little nut/bolt/tool you could have at that point in history. When he built a house in the 40's/50/60's....He did EVERYTHING. From the setting the forms in the foundation, to the cabinetry, to the roofing, to carving the trim/banisters/staircase, I mean literally everything. With the basic tools, some electric, some hand, but the bottom line was he did all of it by the time he'd been in the business for a few years. 

You don't see that anymore, well you do, but they're a rare breed albeit in the world of lutherie to carpentry. My stepdad talks about that fact all the time.

 

It's really sad to see old traditions die, and this is how they do. No, they can't all survive, but it'd be nice to think in small pockets whether it's Amish bedframes or the family moonshine some life would still be left in some corner of the globe. And, Heritage guitar was 25% stubborn Heritage tradition and 75% old Gibson ideas/tradition, far more important to our history than some folks here realize. Sure, we can scan and reverse engineer old things, but the processes will be gone forever, you know, the old journey versus the destination paradigm. 

[LittleLeroy]

17 minutes ago, ThroBak said:

I'm not a CNC expert but I have seen it at work and I believe current CNC could better that circular finish in that photo. My guess is it depends upon machine setting as to how fine a carve you choose to run. At the time of that post the Gary Moore BFG was the state of rough finishing at Gibson and it looked to be a rougher finish to me than the circular Heritage carve.

For me the question is can you have a guitar that incorporates CNC that has the soul that a great musical instrument has to have and I'm quite sure the answer is yes.

Thanks.  Your last line above is an interesting opinion.  I've played some very good CNC-made instruments from Gibson and I have a Private Stock PRS.  I have a dozen Heritage guitars now and I prefer *any* one of them to the CNC-made guitars.  Each one has a life-energy in it that I can feel when I play.  Call me crazy!  I sold all my Gibsons and my PRS is up for sale now.    

[ThroBak]

I actually think this is how old processes survive. You have people that care, examining what makes old processes unique and can make a judgment about which ones have to remain unchanged and which ones can be improved.

My Gibson and Heritage collection starts with a '52 Les Paul Goldtop and ends with a 2009 R6 and 2016 H-150. I don't buy a guitar unless it speaks to me as a player, the amount of machine work does not seem to affect that part of the equation for me, but they all clearly have a high level of hand work in them.

[deytookerjaabs]

1 minute ago, ThroBak said:

I actually think this is how old processes survive. You have people that care, examining what makes old processes unique and can make a judgment about which ones have to remain unchanged and which ones can be improved.

 

 

I disagree, I think the entire point of engineering behind modern manufacturing is to make the employee as replaceable as possible. Low paid cogs in a wheel there to maximize investment potential while rewarding only those at the helm of power positions meant to implement said engineering. 

 

Can't believe people are cheerleading this, there was a time when we were all in it together, that has long past. 

[LittleLeroy]

11 minutes ago, ThroBak said:

I actually think this is how old processes survive. You have people that care, examining what makes old processes unique and can make a judgment about which ones have to remain unchanged and which ones can be improved.

My Gibson and Heritage collection starts with a '52 Les Paul Goldtop and ends with a 2009 R6 and 2016 H-150. I don't buy a guitar unless it speaks to me as a player, the amount of machine work does not seem to affect that part of the equation for me, but they all clearly have a high level of hand work in them.

I believe *you* care and have what it is that drives someone to replicate/improve the unique old processes.  I'm not so sure about Edwin Wilson or Kuok Meng Ru!

[ThroBak]

19 minutes ago, LittleLeroy said:

I believe *you* care and have what it is that drives someone to replicate/improve the unique old processes.  I'm not so sure about Edwin Wilson or Kuok Meng Ru!

From what I can tell from my Edwin Wilson era Gibson Custom Shop guitars I think he is one of the guys showing he does care.

I might as well mention this as it seems pertinent to the topic. My grandfather and great-grandfather were hobbyist violin makers and I am a hobbyist violin maker and if I may say so, I'm pretty good at it. Violin making is extremely labor intensive, if you are good at it then you will spend 250 hours making one. Michigan is a bit of a hot bet for violin making. Joseph Curtin in Ann Arbor is recognized as being one of the best violin makers in the world. So much so that he received a MacArthur Foundation Genius Grant for his work. I went to a Michigan Violin Makers meeting in 2001 that he spoke at and the topic he covered was how he used CNC processes to make violins. If a guy like Joseph Curtin gives CNC his stamp of approval I think that is all you need to know about CNC and preserving old processes when making musical instruments.

[rockabilly69]

26 minutes ago, LittleLeroy said:

I believe *you* care and have what it is that drives someone to replicate/improve the unique old processes.  I'm not so sure about Edwin Wilson or Kuok Meng Ru!

Really? What do you know about Edwin Wilson? That man is ridiculously passionate about building wonderful guitars. And according to many very fine people that I know, and that have met him in person, he's a great guy! Under his guidance, the custom shop has built some of the best Les Pauls in the company's history. I own three of them that flat out smoke! And I've been playing Les Pauls my whole life and I'll be 60 this September! And whatever the Gibson shop process is, it's working. When I first played my 2014 R7 I was floored, and 3 1/2 years later I still am, it's still the best guitar I own (of many)! Who knows where he will take Heritage! And yes the hand built aspect of the old guard is cool, but let's face it the company was failing, and now it's got some new life blood. Let's see what happens. I for one would like to see Heritage rise ABOVE the Gibson Custom level! Who knows what Henry did to stifle Edwin while he was there, or what Edwin is capable if left to just do his job! I love Gibson guitars old and new but I hate how Henry ran the company!

[LittleLeroy]

Just now, rockabilly69 said:

Really? What do you know about Edwin Wilson? 

not a fucking thing, as I said.

[rockabilly69]

11 minutes ago, LittleLeroy said:

not a fucking thing, as I said.

well now you know a little more about him than you did:) As you can see Gibson Custom Shops coexist peacefully with my H150 in my studio where I spend a lot of time when I'm not gigging daily...  

Here's the Heritage H 150 https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12254302

 

[deytookerjaabs]

Wow, this is an exercise in some heavy handed mental gymnastics. 

 

I don't get into the my guitar/violin/marimba is tone machine **** swinging FWIW, the jaded red herrings are just that.

 

For all the daft contributions here the principle of the matter is some people appreciate process. I can get the same oak table at Ikea than at the Amish Furniture store. One is more money, some people pay for that. 

Ikea just bought the Amish store, promised to keep the tradition, and moved in the ubenifinfapher wood carving machines then fired half the employees. 

 

And the Ikea Cheerleaders come out in full force to show their appreciation.

[rockabilly69]

5 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said:

Wow, this is an exercise in some heavy handed mental gymnastics. 

 

I don't get into the my guitar/violin/marimba is tone machine **** swinging FWIW, the jaded red herrings are just that.

 

For all the daft contributions here the principle of the matter is some people appreciate process. I can get the same oak table at Ikea than at the Amish Furniture store. One is more money, some people pay for that. 

Ikea just bought the Amish store, promised to keep the tradition, and moved in the ubenifinfapher wood carving machines then fired half the employees. 

 

And the Ikea Cheerleaders come out in full force to show their appreciation.

really comparing Gibson custom to Ikea??? I wish I was there having a drink with you now, just to hear each statement as you formulate it:)

 

[deytookerjaabs]

12 minutes ago, rockabilly69 said:

really comparing Gibson custom to Ikea??? I wish I was there having a drink with you now, just to hear each statement as you formulate it:)

 

 

 In the sense that they understand how to use technology, sourcing, and management like a modern corporation, why yes, they're quite similar. Ikea even makes "vintage furniture" too! Some folks/artisans scoff at that idea, but it all looks/feels the same in the showroom much like other hunks of wood we know so well.

Many people thought a fella like Edwin was important to Gibson then he was replaced like a bad habit then ironically when he got a new jaab wellll...as my username states. Big business don't play around. 

 

For the record, I AM having a drink, I mean, I've BEEN having drink(s).

 

 

[rockabilly69]

13 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 

"Many people thought a fella like Edwin was important to Gibson then he was replaced like a bad habit"

For the record, I AM having a drink, I mean, I've BEEN having drink(s).

 

 

Yeah after he setup a great custom shop and his process was in place. As I said I would love to hangout in person, drinks in hand, and discuss this as your are clearly passionate about your opinion, which I don't share, but do respect! And I totally get why it's important to you as getting the perfect Les Paul style guitar is to me. And yes, we both may have different visions/opinions of what the perfect Les Paul H150 style guitar is:) I just had a drink too! Basil Heyden Whiskey and please don't tell me it was distilled by Ikea, hahahaha!

 

[deytookerjaabs]

2 minutes ago, rockabilly69 said:

Yeah after he setup a great custom shop and his process was in place:) As I said I would love to hangout in person, drinks in hand, and discuss this as your are clearly passionate about your opinion, which I don't share, but do respect! And I totally get why it's important to you as getting the perfect Les Paul style guitar is to me. And yes, we both may have different visions/opinions of what the perfect Les Paul is:)

I concur!

 

And, the perfect Les Paul is Page's 'burst, or Will McFarlane's Standard, or, uh, Barry Bailey's Deluxe, or that fella who endorsed H-150's...well...the good ones find a home for them.

 

But, I mean, am I the only one who gets creepy crawly feeling when well meaning folks stick up for their company when it's a big business as such? 

[rockabilly69]

6 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said:

I concur!

 

And, the perfect Les Paul is Page's 'burst, or Will McFarlane's Standard, or, uh, Barry Bailey's Deluxe, or that fella who endorsed H-150's...well...the good ones find a home for them.

 

But, I mean, am I the only one who gets creepy crawly feeling when well meaning folks stick up for their company when it's a big business as such? 

Let's see what the future holds for Heritage, and I loved the the sound of that Barry Bailey Deluxe, or Les Dudek's Goldie.

[kbp810]

On 2/24/2018 at 3:14 AM, meng said:

Thank you for your patience and I am truly sorry for the delay in posting an update.

It was indeed a sad day at the plant today, as a result of difficult decisions that it was our responsibility as management to make for the stability and future of the team at 225.

I can't imagine how any of you who have been following and supporting the business might be feeling having heard the news, nor how those who still work at Heritage feel, having had to say goodbye to some friends colleagues, but it is all definitely incomparable to those who no longer work at 225 Parsons anymore. I hope that in sharing transparently why we had to make decisions and addressing immediately some outstanding concerns, that there will be a better understanding of what happened and why. 

I’d like to start by emphasising the core reason - our goal was and continues to be to return Heritage to a place of stability and sustainability.

Though this is a tough statement to stomach and seems hypocritical when former members of the team now have complete instability in their personal lives, there are still a lot of our treasured craftsmen and colleagues who continue to work at the factory. Instability and unsustainable business practice would ultimately over time result in everybody losing their jobs. 

As I shared in previous posts, we are really trying to look ahead at the next 5-10 years, and it was an essential decision to focus on improving the quality of our guitars - otherwise it would be impossible to compete in today’s market. However, the only way we could do this as a business and to keep producing custom guitars (plans for which I will be able to share soon) was to decide to make fewer guitars, and change the sales strategy for 2018. 

Some companies choose to solve their problems by lowering the quality of their instruments and force dealers to buy more at the same price, but this is not something we could accept or feel right doing because it is a downward spiral. Guitars are crafted works of art and should grow in value over time, like all the guitars historically built in 225 that we know and love - guitars that lose a huge amount of value the minute they leave the shop shows that the system is not working right. 

Making the decision to build fewer guitars than we were staffed up for, meant that there needed to be a reduction in workforce to right size the business and the reason it happened all at once was that we felt it was more respectful to do it all at once instead of unpleasantly over an extended time period like some other companies do. In truth, there was a greater reduction than expected. This was not by choice but there were some additional colleagues who chose to leave who we had hoped would have stayed, but it is important to reiterate that there are no further changes planned and the factory is now looking for replacements. 

You guys are right. This shit is sad. Unfortunately, the sad reality is that when running a business, management often has to choose between the lesser of two evils, and we had to decide to shed tears today instead of writing a eulogy tomorrow. 

The silver lining is now that we have a stable business and road ahead looks bright.

I hope this post helps in some way and I will continue to do my best to share transparently like this in the future unless you would prefer me not to. 

With respect, 
Meng

 

[Budha]

I am 70 years old.  After four years in the military, I spent my life working for the same company making electricity.  I started off as an apprentice and worked my way up to manage a large power plant.  My experience in management was the owners were always focused on how can we do more with less.  The less was always less people.  There always appeared to be very little focus on how can reduce non-labor operating and maintenance costs.  The cost of labor is a very minor part in the production of electricity.  But labor always got the major focus from the owners.  The power plant I worked at had 500 full time employees.  A labor force of less than 100 can operate and maintain a plant the same size with modern technology.

My point is, at some point our workforce will be dumbed-down and the demand for skilled workers will be reduced to point of a science fiction novel.  Low paid, low skill labor force and smart expersive machines with rich owners.  Who will buy the products?  Who will have the skilled work with a decent wage?

[PunkKitty]

As the dust is settling and I'm learning more about this, I admit that I have mixed feelings.

I'm not opposed to using CNC for rough cuts. But I like the idea of the final neck carve and finishing to be a hand process. Businesses need to progress to survive. At some point, you have to move beyond the Luddites. I feel badly for those that lost their jobs and I wish them well.

[Spectrum13]

2 minutes ago, Budha said:

 

My point is, at some point our workforce will be dumbed-down and the demand for skilled workers will be reduced to point of a science fiction novel.  Low paid, low skill labor force and smart expersive machines with rich owners.  Who will buy the products?  Who will have the skilled work with a decent wage?

This.

 

History has ample examples of why  ancient civilizations collapsed.  Humans were always short sighted managing resources and we are living in the computer age with over seven billion people. Leaders solving problems approach solutions based on what benefits corporations and their own best interest.   Easter island anyone?

 

[bolero]

10 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

Really? What do you know about Edwin Wilson? That man is ridiculously passionate about building wonderful guitars. And according to many very fine people that I know, and that have met him in person, he's a great guy! Under his guidance, the custom shop has built some of the best Les Pauls in the company's history. I own three of them that flat out smoke! And I've been playing Les Pauls my whole life and I'll be 60 this September! And whatever the Gibson shop process is, it's working. When I first played my 2014 R7 I was floored, and 3 1/2 years later I still am, it's still the best guitar I own (of many)! Who knows where he will take Heritage! And yes the hand built aspect of the old guard is cool, but let's face it the company was failing, and now it's got some new life blood. Let's see what happens. I for one would like to see Heritage rise ABOVE the Gibson Custom level! Who knows what Henry did to stifle Edwin while he was there, or what Edwin is capable if left to just do his job! I love Gibson guitars old and new but I hate how Henry ran the company!

this is a great post

[PunkKitty]

I'm wondering if Les Paul himself would embrace CMC, PLEK, etc. He had a love of technology. I suspect he would.