Change at Heritage Guitar

[deytookerjaabs]

2 hours ago, Budha said:

I am 70 years old.  After four years in the military, I spent my life working for the same company making electricity.  I started off as an apprentice and worked my way up to manage a large power plant.  My experience in management was the owners were always focused on how can we do more with less.  The less was always less people.  There always appeared to be very little focus on how can reduce non-labor operating and maintenance costs.  The cost of labor is a very minor part in the production of electricity.  But labor always got the major focus from the owners.  The power plant I worked at had 500 full time employees.  A labor force of less than 100 can operate and maintain a plant the same size with modern technology.

My point is, at some point our workforce will be dumbed-down and the demand for skilled workers will be reduced to point of a science fiction novel.  Low paid, low skill labor force and smart expersive machines with rich owners.  Who will buy the products?  Who will have the skilled work with a decent wage?

 

 

And, long after layoffs and the new machines reduce unit costs dramatically.......guess what??

 

The prices will go up, your friends will make even less money as inflation far outpaces the joke that $10/hr already is. Meanwhile, some folks will be doing quite well for themselves. Quite frankly, if not for the two-faced PR the new owners put forth the past couple years this would all be 100% expected. 

 

Still, good news, if Gibson comes to town they already pay more than Heritage at all their factories!! With the cost of living difference between Nashville/Kalamazoo that could be good for the townfolk. $15/hr in Nashville is becoming like 30/hr in NYC, damn near useless, still tons of poor/struggling people everywhere. I was shocked when I moved from Chicago to see the Pawn Shops are a place people actually shop at. That **** and the Dollar Store is everywhere down south. 

 

[deytookerjaabs]

38 minutes ago, PunkKitty said:

I'm wondering if Les Paul himself would embrace CMC, PLEK, etc. He had a love of technology. I suspect he would.

 

That's a moot point, you're being daft.

 

Most folks here own and or have played CNC involved guitars, CNC can do incredible things and beyond CNC most guitar factories have even cooler machines which operate at tolerances hand stuff could never accommodate to solve all sorts of labor riddles.  

For 30+ years those guys could have at any time embraced CNC as well, on top of a million other modern devices. Instead they built D'Angelico's which rivaled their predecessors, superstrats which rivaled Carvin in quality, L5's/Super 400's that were enamored by heavy hitters who played the "golden eras" when new in the 50's on and on the list goes....at great prices, because it wasn't about expansion & Land Rovers for the brass. 

This isn't about "embracing technology" in some simpleton fashion. It's about saying one thing while doing another and greed. There's really no point in keeping the "Heritage" name if it's just another automated Les Paul factory with a rounded horn & a snakebite headstock. "Oooh, I hope Edwin sells us Hide Glue fumes!!" Heritage didn't survive for the 30 years because of the design changes, the design changes existed because of trademark. If all you're embracing is the design changes you missed the boat!!! 

[davesultra]

57 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 

This isn't about "embracing technology" in some simpleton fashion. It's about saying one thing while doing another and greed. There's really no point in keeping the "Heritage" name if it's just another automated Les Paul factory with a rounded horn & a snakebite headstock. "Oooh, I hope Edwin sells us Hide Glue fumes!!" Heritage didn't survive for the 30 years because of the design changes, the design changes existed because of trademark. If all you're embracing is the design changes you missed the boat!!! 

I agree! I may have to “accept” the changes. But I sure as hell won’t ever “embrace” them. Don’t pimp “hand made”, because if you’re bringing in CNCs’ then they no longer will be.

[JeffB]

In 1959 a Gibson Les Paul cost $375.00. Run through a US inflation calculator that is $3194 today

Average household income was about $5400 in 1959. Its about 60k today

A Les Paul standard today is listed @ $2999 on Gibsons website.

Joe average could buy 14.4 Les Pauls in 1959 and today he could buy 20.

CNC and other advancements means we can all have more. More.

and bigger.

Its math =-+X you cant argue with math.

[LittleLeroy]

13 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

Really? What do you know about Edwin Wilson? That man is ridiculously passionate about building wonderful guitars. And according to many very fine people that I know, and that have met him in person, he's a great guy! Under his guidance, the custom shop has built some of the best Les Pauls in the company's history. I own three of them that flat out smoke! And I've been playing Les Pauls my whole life and I'll be 60 this September! And whatever the Gibson shop process is, it's working. When I first played my 2014 R7 I was floored, and 3 1/2 years later I still am, it's still the best guitar I own (of many)! Who knows where he will take Heritage! And yes the hand built aspect of the old guard is cool, but let's face it the company was failing, and now it's got some new life blood. Let's see what happens. I for one would like to see Heritage rise ABOVE the Gibson Custom level! Who knows what Henry did to stifle Edwin while he was there, or what Edwin is capable if left to just do his job! I love Gibson guitars old and new but I hate how Henry ran the company!

I appreciate your perspective, thanks.  We'll just have to see as things develop, how much freedom Mr. Wilson is given.  I've been playing Gibson's since my first in LGO 1964 and my first SG Jr. in '65.  It is possible to find a great Gibson; how many did you audition b4 choosing the ones you cherish?  My point being that - without exaggeration - any of my Heritage guitars have more life than the best Gibson I was able to afford and I bought each of these Heritage guitars sight-unseen over the net.  

[Budha]

29 minutes ago, JeffB said:

In 1959 a Gibson Les Paul cost $375.00. Run through a US inflation calculator that is $3194 today

Average household income was about $5400 in 1959. Its about 60k today

A Les Paul standard today is listed @ $2999 on Gibsons website.

Joe average could buy 14.4 Les Pauls in 1959 and today he could buy 20.

CNC and other advancements means we can all have more. More.

and bigger.

Its math =-+X you cant argue with math.

The problem with the math is the distribution of income has changed.  More of the income is in the hands of a much smaller group of people.  The average income may be able to pay for 20 Les Pauls.  The average person today does not make 60K per year.  I don't know what the average person in America made in 1954 but I'll bet it was much closer to $5400 than the average person proximity to $60K today.

[deytookerjaabs]

3 minutes ago, Budha said:

The problem with the math is the distribution of income has changed.  More of the income is in the hands of a much smaller group of people.  The average income may be able to pay for 20 Les Pauls.  The average person today does not make 60K per year.  I don't know what the average person in America made in 1954 but I'll bet it was much closer to $5400 than the average person proximity to $60K today.

 

Don't forget the sneaky part of using the LPC. 

Les Paul Standard, which is a 'Burst, in '59 was $265, $2,264 after inflation, a Jr. about $1,100 etc. The custom model was quite a bit more money. 

Heritage managed to keep about at those levels for 30 years. 

 

 

 

Still, it's a total red herring as it's quite clear that the brand identity developed through Heritage guitars for decades used a certain philosophy to their advantage whether you appreciate it or don't, THAT was the identity to a large part of their customer base from what I can tell.

 

 

[kidsmoke]

15 hours ago, Polo said:

I wonder if they'll be updating to the official Heritage website to correctly represent the following:

• Not all of the employees in the scrolling promo footage are still with the company.
• Not all of the guitars shown in the footage are still being built. 
• The hallowed ground in which that footage was shot has been gutted and reconstructed for none guitar related use.
• The blue tags that once filed in Marv's top left pocket which were then applied to a work in progress are no longer in use.
• Not all of the machinery/tools/production methods shown in the footage will be in use for very much longer.

https://heritageguitars.com/

 

 

this is an excellent synopsis of the departure. Not emotionally charged romantically jaded. Helps when trying to understand why we're reeling.

15 hours ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 Sure, we can scan and reverse engineer old things, but the processes will be gone forever, you know, the old journey versus the destination paradigm. 

where you been is good and gone,

what you keep is the gettin' there.

[Budha]

For those interested, here is an educational Youtube video about the trends in distribution of wealth in America.  It's enough to make you sick.  I hope posting something like this video is not inappropriate on this site.

 

[Heritage1970]

15 minutes ago, Budha said:

For those interested, here is an educational Youtube video about the trends in distribution of wealth in America.  It's enough to make you sick.  I hope posting something like this video is not inappropriate on this site.

 

...so sad. You're right- it does make you sick. Ever since I was a kid they told me that the middle class will some day no longer exist- it will all be filthy rich and really poor. I think that time has arrived. Funny though- also when I was a kid a "mansion" was considered what most people that think they're "middle class" live in now. Around me I see people that live in those houses- 10 bedrooms, etc, and hear them complaining about the wealthy having everything. It really makes you go "hmmmm??? I guess I'm over here in the ghetto." I don't think the rich really think they are. Things like a daily trip to the salon, Starbucks 8 times a day, 10 cars and 2 Summer homes are considered "necessities" not "extras" or "things I enjoy." We live in strange times...

[Spectrum13]

56 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 

Don't forget the sneaky part of using the LPC. 

Les Paul Standard, which is a 'Burst, in '59 was $265, $2,264 after inflation, a Jr. about $1,100 etc. The custom model was quite a bit more money. 

That was list price. 48th street NYC would discount  30 to 40%

In 1968 I purchased a P90 Goldtop for $265.00

 

 

 

 

[AP515]

36 minutes ago, Budha said:

For those interested, here is an educational Youtube video about the trends in distribution of wealth in America.  It's enough to make you sick.  I hope posting something like this video is not inappropriate on this site.

Why feel sick that someone has a lot of money?  Does their owning that money mean that someone else must have been deprived of it?  Bill Gates didn't steal his 92 Billion that he has accumulated over the years.  Economies of scale can explain the disparity better than the distributions shown in the video.  That 1% spoken of still amounts to 3 million people.    Another interesting fact is that the highest concentration of where those 1%ers live is Washington DC.  The class inequity that video descries originates in our government.

One could perhaps expect that the biggest problem facing our poor class is having enough to eat.  The reality (since the video liked to use that expression) is, that the #1 problem facing our poor class is obesity.  Rather than decry the perceived unfairness of our system, we should be promoting a strong work ethic and the benefits of risk/reward in raising that poor class.

One last thought, the sources in that video were very left leaning.  That's fine if your belief system aligns with theirs.  It has been my experience that organizations both left and right are less reliable the farther out on the scale you get from the middle.

[Polo]

49 minutes ago, AP515 said:

One last thought, the sources in that video were very left leaning.  That's fine if your belief system aligns with theirs.  It has been my experience that organizations both left and right are less reliable the farther out on the scale you get from the middle.

Can I assume by "middle" you mean FOX news?

*edited for self preservation purposes*

[LittleLeroy]

1 hour ago, AP515 said:

Why feel sick that someone has a lot of money?  Does their owning that money mean that someone else must have been deprived of it?  Bill Gates didn't steal his 92 Billion that he has accumulated over the years.  Economies of scale can explain the disparity better than the distributions shown in the video.  That 1% spoken of still amounts to 3 million people.    Another interesting fact is that the highest concentration of where those 1%ers live is Washington DC.  The class inequity that video descries originates in our government.

One could perhaps expect that the biggest problem facing our poor class is having enough to eat.  The reality (since the video liked to use that expression) is, that the #1 problem facing our poor class is obesity.  Rather than decry the perceived unfairness of our system, we should be promoting a strong work ethic and the benefits of risk/reward in raising that poor class.

One last thought, the sources in that video were very left leaning.  That's fine if your belief system aligns with theirs.  It has been my experience that organizations both left and right are less reliable the farther out on the scale you get from the middle.

Oh Boy!!  You don't own a bump-stock AR-15, do you?

58 minutes ago, Polo said:

Can I assume by "middle" you mean FOX news?

*edited for self preservation purposes*

Bingo!  (see my above comment)

[LittleLeroy]

2 hours ago, Heritage1970 said:

...so sad. <snip>  We live in strange times...

You know the old Chinese curse?  "May you live in interesting times..."  These times certainly qualify! 

[Buckyrock]

18 hours ago, ThroBak said:

From what I can tell from my Edwin Wilson era Gibson Custom Shop guitars I think he is one of the guys showing he does care.

I might as well mention this as it seems pertinent to the topic. My grandfather and great-grandfather were hobbyist violin makers and I am a hobbyist violin maker and if I may say so, I'm pretty good at it. Violin making is extremely labor intensive, if you are good at it then you will spend 250 hours making one. Michigan is a bit of a hot bet for violin making. Joseph Curtin in Ann Arbor is recognized as being one of the best violin makers in the world. So much so that he received a MacArthur Foundation Genius Grant for his work. I went to a Michigan Violin Makers meeting in 2001 that he spoke at and the topic he covered was how he used CNC processes to make violins. If a guy like Joseph Curtin gives CNC his stamp of approval I think that is all you need to know about CNC and preserving old processes when making musical instruments.

No.  You don't get to tell me what I need to know.  Sorry.

[davesultra]

Oh great, here we go with the politically motivated personal attack’s. Didn’t we learn anything from the great fallout a couple of years ago. Right, Left or middle, just because you think it, doesn’t mean you need to type it.

[Steiner]

4 hours ago, JeffB said:

In 1959 a Gibson Les Paul cost $375.00. Run through a US inflation calculator that is $3194 today

Average household income was about $5400 in 1959. Its about 60k today

A Les Paul standard today is listed @ $2999 on Gibsons website.

Joe average could buy 14.4 Les Pauls in 1959 and today he could buy 20.

CNC and other advancements means we can all have more. More.

and bigger.

Its math =-+X you cant argue with math.

Average is a poor indicator of the middle with wealth distribution.   The median and mode are a much better statistics for skewed distributions.

[bobmeyrick]

It's interesting to read these comments from a UK perspective, as we have similar problems with wealth inequality, though perhaps not as extreme as in the USA. We also have big businesses which treat employees poorly, but the irony is that a well treated workforce is likely to be more productive and hence the company more successful. Interestingly one of the UK's most successful retail companies is the John Lewis Partnership, which owns John Lewis department stores and Waitrose supermarkets. It has nearly 90,000 employees, who are partners in the business - they all have a share in the profits and a say in the running of the business.

We don't have any large scale guitar makers like Gibson, Fender and the rest, but there are a fair number of high quality small-scale makers. Trev Wilkinson's Fret King guitars are an interesting case, as the Black Label range are designed by Trev but made in Korea, while the Green Label series were made in the UK under Trev's supervision (though I'm not sure they're still available). Jerry Donahue, John Etheridge and Gordon Giltrap all have signature models.

1 hour ago, AP515 said:

One could perhaps expect that the biggest problem facing our poor class is having enough to eat.  The reality (since the video liked to use that expression) is, that the #1 problem facing our poor class is obesity.  Rather than decry the perceived unfairness of our system, we should be promoting a strong work ethic and the benefits of risk/reward in raising that poor class.

One last thought, the sources in that video were very left leaning.  That's fine if your belief system aligns with theirs.  It has been my experience that organizations both left and right are less reliable the farther out on the scale you get from the middle.

Some thoughts on those comments. The obesity problem (which we have to a lesser extent in the UK) might be down to the fact that a lot of cheap food is full of sugar and fat, and consequently packs a lot of calories. Many poor people are working, often more than one job, but the wages are low.

As for the "left leaning" sources, I've followed the links and the data they use comes from reputable sources. For example, the data on wealth distribution quoted by the Mother Jones site was from research carried out by the Harvard Business School and Duke University. I wouldn't have thought Harvard Business School was particularly left wing...

[bobmeyrick]

6 minutes ago, Steiner said:

Average is a poor indicator of the middle with wealth distribution.   The median and mode are a much better statistics for skewed distributions.

Good point! Politicians often seem to have a shaky grasp of such matters. One of ours, Michael Gove, who was Education Secretary at the time, said he wanted all schools to be better than average...

[Steiner]

6 minutes ago, bobmeyrick said:

Good point! Politicians often seem to have a shaky grasp of such matters. One of ours, Michael Gove, who was Education Secretary at the time, said he wanted all schools to be better than average...

Excellent!

Figures don't lie but liars can figure.

Liars, damn liars and statisticians (listed in increasing order of questionable truth)

Edit:  must learn to spill

[LittleLeroy]

28 minutes ago, davesultra said:

Oh great, here we go with the politically motivated personal attack’s. Didn’t we learn anything from the great fallout a couple of years ago. Right, Left or middle, just because you think it, doesn’t mean you need to type it.

No one is attacking anyone here and your perception of that is only that: your perception.  Everyone here better have a sense of humor, like, say, Polo.  Or me.  And yes, that's a joke, son.

[Yooper]

5 minutes ago, bobmeyrick said:

Some thoughts on those comments. The obesity problem (which we have to a lesser extent in the UK) might be down to the fact that a lot of cheap food is full of sugar and fat, and consequently packs a lot of calories. Many poor people are working, often more than one job, but the wages are low.

Thank you. It is insulting to suggest those who make less money don't work as hard as the privileged elite.

Now more than ever, Americans are dissuaded from comprehending such nuance. The 1 percent own our corporate media.

6 minutes ago, bobmeyrick said:

As for the "left leaning" sources, I've followed the links and the data they use comes from reputable sources. For example, the data on wealth distribution quoted by the Mother Jones site was from research carried out by the Harvard Business School and Duke University. I wouldn't have thought Harvard Business School was particularly left wing...

Now more than ever, Americans are told universities, educators, journalists and scientists are not to be trusted.

Who does that leave for Americans to trust? The 1 percent.  And it's no wonder they live around Washington D.C. They own the government, now more than ever.

[LittleLeroy]

35 minutes ago, Buckyrock said:

No.  You don't get to tell me what I need to know.  Sorry.

Well, I wasn't going to put it so directly, but I must say I agree with the sentiment.

[davesultra]

12 minutes ago, LittleLeroy said:

No one is attacking anyone here and your perception of that is only that: your perception.  Everyone here better have a sense of humor, like, say, Polo.  Or me.  And yes, that's a joke, son.

With all  due respect Sir, you weren't around these parts when the forum went off the rails the first time. And it's very easy for these things to spiral out of control (as it did a couple of years back). Pardon me for attempting to circumvent this from happening again. I would truly hate to see the forum shut down again (and we have been warned to keep the political rhetoric out).