Change at Heritage Guitar

[Coyotesgator]

.

[LittleLeroy]

Just now, davesultra said:

With all  due respect Sir, you weren't around these parts when the forum went off the rails the first time. And it's very easy for these things to spiral out of control (as it did a couple of years back). Pardon me for attempting to circumvent this from happening again. I would truly hate to see the forum shut down again (and we have been warned of this).

OK.  Message received!  thanks!

[deytookerjaabs]

Well, I think beyond all the details behind the situations facing our societies as a whole it's important to remember the folks with the capital to do stuff are a crucial part of growing things. It's the rest of the population's job to watch and make sure the effects don't become net negative as in the mentality "well at least u got a jaaab!" History has shown that at least for periods of time equivalent growth is possible. 

 

Just gotta hold them feet to the fire. 

 

It'd be a good time to read up on old Ted McCarty and the brand of leadership guys like him brought to the table. 

 

 

 

 

[Heritage1970]

1 hour ago, LittleLeroy said:

You know the old Chinese curse?  "May you live in interesting times..."  These times certainly qualify! 

Oh yeah! They sure do! Interesting indeed

[AP515]

3 hours ago, Polo said:

Can I assume by "middle" you mean FOX news?

*edited for self preservation purposes*

I consider Fox to be right of center.  I consider most of the other media outlets to be left of center.  The fact that we have to get our media from one or the other demonstrates that neither is factual.  They both spin to promote.  If one thinks what they are ingesting is strictly factual, they don't understand the modern era.

As for stopping the political rhetoric, I'm in favor.

[bolero]

allright then, lets get back on topic:

in general, I find people are resistant to change

except for the truly innovative ones

[mars_hall]

No politics.  Got a complaint from the troops

[Kuz]

Keep it up with the political shit guys & girls and this thread is going to get shut down pronto.   I, for one, don't want to see that happen.   And I don't want to see HOC shut down either.

If you want to bitch about politics log on to Facebook.

This is a thread, and a site, about Heritage Guitars.  

[kidsmoke]

3 hours ago, Buckyrock said:

No.  You don't get to tell me what I need to know.  Sorry.

this is bullshit.

 

And it IS an attack. Anonymously, from behind a keyboard.

This forum has always allowed people share their perspective respectfully. For you to offer nothing to this dialogue but to personally challenge one poster and his stated respect for someone's expertise, who brings a valuable perspective to this COMMUNITY, is wholly inappropriate, and says far more about the poster's character than the issue at hand.

There are two types of people. Those afraid of learning because it means they have to acknowledge another's advanced knowledge on an issue or think they can't grasp it,  and those who hunger for the same incessantly. Both are welcome here but may not condemn the other IMHO.

Throbak, I appreciate your perspective given that, in a few short years you've taken antique technology and made your brand a household name in the boutique instrument market, and been challenged with maintaining/respecting a legendary industry benchmark while being efficient and profitable. Seems, gee, I dunno, somewhat relevant! I may not agree with everything you have to say but I sure as shit want to hear it given it's uncanny relevance to the ISSUE AT HAND.  hope you continue to do so. Hope others do as well. 

I'm a STAUNCH believer in the wings or weight paradigm. I considered which this was before hitting enter, I'll stand behind my conclusion.

 

 

 

 

 

[RhoadsScholar]

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 9:17 PM, big bob said:

I bought my first Heritage in 1999 from Elderly in Lansing. At the time I lived in Mt. Pleasant. I liked the Idea of spending my money locally. While I missed PSP 1 due to a family emergency I have attended all the others. I have traveled with some great people and been hosted my many others. For the last 5 years or so I have stayed with a second generation heritage luthier at her and her husbands house. I have had the privilege of hanging out with those luthiers who have built the guitars I so much enjoy. People like Kate, and Chris, Arnie, Curly, Charles, Pete, and many others. They have built 3 guitars especially for me. Not custom build but employee builds, just for me by people who I consider friends. 

I have always loved the High quality of my Heritage guitars, and I don’t doubt the quality will keep getting better. But if all the friends I have made along the way are doing other things. It’s just not the same for me. 

I don’t love my heritages because they are great guitars. I love them because they are great guitars my friends made. When you take the friends out.. your left with just guitars. 

This post expresses my opinion the best. I have always felt a special custom element that only Heritage could provide.  Even the used one I have aquired have a little something special, out of the ordinary that I admire.

[chico]

Like Mick said from the stage at Altamont, "let's be cool people," 

l wanted to thumbs up the Bolero comment about this being a great post to follow. 

I wanted to shout out to Gregg (Steiner!) for that wit he is so famous for,

and to all the others, new and old. Who make the HOC so terrific!

I became more a lurker a few years back, and now, with the perspective and reality culture shock that has occurred I find refuge here reading all the messages. 

As Neil Y sung, we've been through some things together...although these changes have come..

and, we realize that times HAVE changed, I see we already refer to the last two years the "Plaza" years, and the first thirty as "the second golden age" .... and on and on

 

if you want to get a glimpse of what *could* have been the fate at that address just drive up the road to the site of the old Checker plant. Or to the site of the former Georgia Pacific plant. Etc. 

Peace ya'll, it's been great seeing all these wonderful names on posts!

 

 

 

 

[rockabilly69]

5 hours ago, davesultra said:

Oh great, here we go with the politically motivated personal attack’s. Didn’t we learn anything from the great fallout a couple of years ago. Right, Left or middle, just because you think it, doesn’t mean you need to type it.

That's exactly I how I feel about politics on guitar forums.

[rockabilly69]

10 hours ago, LittleLeroy said:

I appreciate your perspective, thanks.  We'll just have to see as things develop, how much freedom Mr. Wilson is given.  I've been playing Gibson's since my first in LGO 1964 and my first SG Jr. in '65.  It is possible to find a great Gibson; how many did you audition b4 choosing the ones you cherish?  My point being that - without exaggeration - any of my Heritage guitars have more life than the best Gibson I was able to afford and I bought each of these Heritage guitars sight-unseen over the net.  

All of my current electric Gibsons were bought sight unseen online like you bought your Heritages. And frankly, all three stock Historics are better for my tastes than the two Heritages I own when I first got the Heritages, but I have since dialed in my Heritages to suit my purposes better with new hardware and electronics, and they are now both great guitars that have great voices. I didn't do a thing to my Historics other than a set of steel tailpiece studs that were given to me by RS Guitarworks that I tried in my R0. But every guitar is different, and every person listens for different tonal qualities.  Since 2002 I've only sold one Gibson Les Paul, and one H150, so I guess, like you, I've been lucky buying guitars. And guess what, none of the Les Pauls or H150 sounds alike. So the idea that CNC machines take the soul out of guitars is just something I don't understand. I like all of my guitars otherwise I would sell them off.

[LittleLeroy]

1 minute ago, rockabilly69 said:

All of my current electric Gibsons were bought sight unseen online like you bought your Heritages. And frankly, all three stock Historics are better for my tastes than the two Heritages I own when I first got the Heritages, but I have since dialed in my Heritages to suit my purposes better with new hardware and electronics, and they are now both great guitars that have great voices. I didn't do a thing to my Historics other than a set of steel tailpiece studs that were given to me by RS Guitarworks that I tried in my R0. But every guitar is different, and every person listens for different tonal qualities.  Since 2002 I've only sold one Gibson Les Paul, and one H150, so I guess, like you, I've been lucky buying guitars. And guess what, none of the Les Pauls or H150 sounds alike. So the idea that CNC machines take the soul out of guitars is just something I don't understand. I like all of my guitars otherwise I would sell them off.

Thanks for your reply.  I feel the same: I only sell if I absolutely have to or if a guitar doesn't do it for me, in which case I'd rather have the cash to spend than see it just sit in the case.  I really have no prejudice against CNC or other "modern" methods and judge only by results.  In the same time-frame you mention I've had many, many guitars pass through my hands, mostly PRS and Gibson.  I used to be pretty fickle.  But it may be more than coincidence that all those I no longer have happened to have been made with computerized machines and the guitars I want to keep were not.  

The other factor, or another factor, I feel is personal development as a musician.  So it could be that my tastes have changed as my ears and playing have changed and the sounds that inspire me now are coming from these instruments as opposed to others.  It's all so subjective.  I feel grateful everyday to be able to have a life as a player with marvelous instruments to use. 

[rockabilly69]

40 minutes ago, LittleLeroy said:

 I feel grateful everyday to be able to have a life as a player with marvelous instruments to use. 

Word! I always smile when my biggest decision for the day is what cool guitar am I going to play at my gig today:) 

[schundog]

Nice to see you chiming in, Daniel; Welcome back!

 

[ElNumero]

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 12:18 AM, LittleLeroy said:

Thanks.  Your last line above is an interesting opinion.  I've played some very good CNC-made instruments from Gibson and I have a Private Stock PRS.  I have a dozen Heritage guitars now and I prefer *any* one of them to the CNC-made guitars.  Each one has a life-energy in it that I can feel when I play.  Call me crazy!  I sold all my Gibsons and my PRS is up for sale now.    

So the question finally got answered, a dozen Heritage guitars, cool.

[ElNumero]

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 1:33 AM, deytookerjaabs said:

 

 In the sense that they understand how to use technology, sourcing, and management like a modern corporation, why yes, they're quite similar. Ikea even makes "vintage furniture" too! Some folks/artisans scoff at that idea, but it all looks/feels the same in the showroom much like other hunks of wood we know so well.

Many people thought a fella like Edwin was important to Gibson then he was replaced like a bad habit then ironically when he got a new jaab wellll...as my username states. Big business don't play around. 

 

For the record, I AM having a drink, I mean, I've BEEN having drink(s).

 

 

I have never been in an Ikea store. Hell, I don't even know who Ikea is!! And don't care!!

[ElNumero]

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 2:00 AM, rockabilly69 said:

Let's see what the future holds for Heritage, and I loved the the sound of that Barry Bailey Deluxe, or Les Dudek's Goldie.

I've seen Barry's deluxe in person when I gigged with him.

[ElNumero]

15 hours ago, Yooper said:

Thank you. It is insulting to suggest those who make less money don't work as hard as the privileged elite.

Now more than ever, Americans are dissuaded from comprehending such nuance. The 1 percent own our corporate media.

Now more than ever, Americans are told universities, educators, journalists and scientists are not to be trusted.

Who does that leave for Americans to trust? The 1 percent.  And it's no wonder they live around Washington D.C. They own the government, now more than ever.

That's easy to answer. Trust a CPA. Studies have shown that they ARE the most trusted of all professionals. What profession is rated last in trustworthiness? You guessed it, lawyers and the legal profession. I am proud of my noble profession!

[ElNumero]

14 hours ago, deytookerjaabs said:

Well, I think beyond all the details behind the situations facing our societies as a whole it's important to remember the folks with the capital to do stuff are a crucial part of growing things. It's the rest of the population's job to watch and make sure the effects don't become net negative as in the mentality "well at least u got a jaaab!" History has shown that at least for periods of time equivalent growth is possible. 

 

Just gotta hold them feet to the fire. 

 

It'd be a good time to read up on old Ted McCarty and the brand of leadership guys like him brought to the table. 

 

 

 

 

So I'm curious D'Tooker, who tookderjaabs?

[tbonesullivan]

I think we need to go back to the days when they had a central steam plant and used belts on the ceiling to drive the machines. Yeah, old school is definitely better. Those electric motors have been nothing but trouble. Time to return to hand buffing. WAX ON WAX OFF.

Personally, I don't give a crap if a CNC machine is used to rough out a body, or a person with a band saw.  I don't believe for a second that having a machine do that, vs a person with a machine, has any effect on the final product.  We're talking about BLOCKS OF WOOD, which is essentially what solid body guitars are.

The tops and bottoms of the big jazz boxes that are carved, I'm pretty sure get roughed out on a duplicarver using a template. I saw it, I touched it with my own hands.  So, somehow having a person push a router around using a duplicarver setup is going to produce a superior rough cut top when compared to a machine following a template in memory?

You can't CNC the bent laminated steamed rim of a semi hollow body guitar.

You can't CNC the bent laminated tops and bottoms of guitars.

You can't CNC on the binding. You can't CNC scrape the binding. You can't CNC paint a burst.

[ElNumero]

11 hours ago, chico said:

Like Mick said from the stage at Altamont, "let's be cool people," 

l wanted to thumbs up the Bolero comment about this being a great post to follow. 

I wanted to shout out to Gregg (Steiner!) for that wit he is so famous for,

and to all the others, new and old. Who make the HOC so terrific!

I became more a lurker a few years back, and now, with the perspective and reality culture shock that has occurred I find refuge here reading all the messages. 

As Neil Y sung, we've been through some things together...although these changes have come..

and, we realize that times HAVE changed, I see we already refer to the last two years the "Plaza" years, and the first thirty as "the second golden age" .... and on and on

 

if you want to get a glimpse of what *could* have been the fate at that address just drive up the road to the site of the old Checker plant. Or to the site of the former Georgia Pacific plant. Etc. 

Peace ya'll, it's been great seeing all these wonderful names on posts!

 

 

 

 

Hey Chico, good to hear from you dude!!!  Yeah, Checker Cabs, I remember those....

[Spectrum13]

1 hour ago, ElNumero said:

So the question finally got answered, a dozen Heritage guitars, cool.

Told you to look between the cushions.

[deytookerjaabs]

1 hour ago, tbonesullivan said:

I think we need to go back to the days when they had a central steam plant and used belts on the ceiling to drive the machines. Yeah, old school is definitely better. Those electric motors have been nothing but trouble. Time to return to hand buffing. WAX ON WAX OFF.

Personally, I don't give a crap if a CNC machine is used to rough out a body, or a person with a band saw.  I don't believe for a second that having a machine do that, vs a person with a machine, has any effect on the final product.  We're talking about BLOCKS OF WOOD, which is essentially what solid body guitars are.

The tops and bottoms of the big jazz boxes that are carved, I'm pretty sure get roughed out on a duplicarver using a template. I saw it, I touched it with my own hands.  So, somehow having a person push a router around using a duplicarver setup is going to produce a superior rough cut top when compared to a machine following a template in memory?

You can't CNC the bent laminated steamed rim of a semi hollow body guitar.

You can't CNC the bent laminated tops and bottoms of guitars.

You can't CNC on the binding. You can't CNC scrape the binding. You can't CNC paint a burst.

 

 

It's quite the opposite of what you're stating. 

 

CNC can do all those things, far more exacting (of course, not scrape binding, rim bending, but other machines are capable if one were to engineer them) An extra rough cut on a duplicarver that gets belt/hand sanded introduces a good bit of variance in the final outcome, not consistency. The same variances you'll find when you measure vintage arches & carved tops, they were all a bit different when new. The same thing goes for damn near the whole process when you build a guitar circa 1955 which is pretty much where Heritage was stuck at, lol. Machining is about tolerances, they add up, when each step in the process has a looser tolerance as you add them all up you get unique results. IMO, that's a huge part of the charm in old guitars; unique results given their limited numbers. 

Whereas, the combination of CNC, pneumatic/hydraulic seaming, laser etching, plastic forming, and other modern machines you see at today's guitar factories produce a final product far more consistent piece to piece which has it's benefits too. 

There's a million other little details, but I'll save that for a later post.