Support the brand

[kidsmoke]

sh*t happens.

check this stunning Parsons St peach....

now...look closer

NOT a 2nd. Or I should say, not designated as a second. I had the fretboard replaced. In fact, Ren gave me a new board, despite not know the guitars provenance (where or when it was sold etc.) Many years and many owners had passed by that time, I was happy with their posture. 

You'll not find mention of it on TGP. 

 

 

 

[deytookerjaabs]

22 minutes ago, Polo said:

 

 

Your wish is my command

 

[Steiner]

I've been reading deytookerjaabs' posts closely.   The man is spot on with my interpretation of occurrences and press releases.

Again, how bad do conditions have to be before 40% of the laid off say screw it I'm out of here too?

[ElNumero]

1 hour ago, Steiner said:

I've been reading deytookerjaabs' posts closely.   The man is spot on with my interpretation of occurrences and press releases.

Again, how bad do conditions have to be before 40% of the laid off say screw it I'm out of here too?

What conditions?

[davesultra]

1 hour ago, Steiner said:

I've been reading deytookerjaabs' posts closely.   The man is spot on with my interpretation of occurrences and press releases.

Again, how bad do conditions have to be before 40% of the laid off say screw it I'm out of here too?

I’ll admit, it definitely is odd to see such a high percentage of turnover at once. I wonder if the truth will ever come to surface (whatever it may be)? 

In the meantime it looks like there’ll be much more of  and  until we can hopefully get to . I truly hope we can get to that place, and before August.

[Kuz]

6 hours ago, deytookerjaabs said:

There are no rules to "fall in line" and create a safe space, but if that's what the voters vote then so be it. 

 

I, for one, cannot think of one instance in the past where a company laid off a group of people then turned around and scrutinized/blamed those very people for being laid off. Regardless of the actual circumstances behind the matter, I still can't fathom why anyone would find that an honorable or professional move by any management team, let alone a freshman in semester uno of public relations 101. It's literally the opposite of every statement I can ever recall reading after hearing about folks being let go. Heck, it's practically unprecedented.

I see a manufacturer, like anyone else in business, as an entity subject to praise and scrutiny where it fits.

 

 

 

I agree with this, pretty much sums it up for me.

5 hours ago, kidsmoke said:

I have not seen the company blaming any former employees for anything. 

The statement Meng shared regarding the decisions made did not blame anyone.

But that's not what his statement said.  It said they let 10 people go based on wanting to make higher quality guitars.  That sound like blame to me.

Then it was stated that they were let go because they wouldn't fall in line with new production procedures.  Essentially they were let go because they would follow ownership's direction.  Again, that sounds like blame to me.

 

[Kuz]

Also, I don't see why I need to blindly follow a company if the company changes it's values, behaviors, and business acumen to something i don't agree with.   If it's true that the original owners didn't pay themselves since 2006, then why did they stay in business???  I can come up with 3 reasons;  1) They loved building guitars 2) They wanted to continue to pay their employees 3) They cared about the legacy of the company they created 30 years ago.  If you can't appreciate, or don't care about that selflessness then why not buy any great guitar from 20 other great guitar companies.   SEE HERITAGE WAS UNIQUE, FOR BETTER OR WORSE.

I am NOT asking anyone to follow me with pitchfork & torches, this is just my opinion.  

Everyone here is entitled to an opinion and I am sharing mine.   If others agree or not, I don't care really.  But I am choosing NOT to support the brand based on my own reasons (that I have stated).

In a nut shell,  everything that WAS Heritage is no longer.   I don't know this new Heritage and what they have shared with their business vision is the same as 10 other companies.   

Heritage WAS unique, now it'S not.  

YVMV

[kbp810]

11 minutes ago, Kuz said:

Also, I don't see why I need to blindly follow a company if the company changes it's values, behaviors, and business acumen to something i don't agree with.   If it's true that the original owners didn't pay themselves since 2006, then why did they stay in business???  I can come up with 3 reasons;  1) They loved building guitars 2) They wanted to continue to pay their employees 3) They cared about the legacy of the company they created 30 years ago.  If you can't appreciate, or don't care about that selflessness then why not buy any great guitar from 20 other great guitar companies.   SEE HERITAGE WAS UNIQUE, FOR BETTER OR WORSE.

I am NOT asking anyone to follow me with pitchfork & torches, this is just my opinion.  

Everyone here is entitled to an opinion and I am sharing mine.   If others agree or not, I don't care really.  But I am choosing NOT to support the brand based on my own reasons (that I have stated).

In a nut shell,  everything that WAS Heritage is no longer.   I don't know this new Heritage and what they have shared with their business vision is the same as 10 other companies.   

Heritage WAS unique, now it'S not.  

YVMV

I've been trying to put my thoughts into words on this for a while now... I don't need to anymore, because they were just posted. Very well said Kuz. 

[zguitar71]

I am prepared to get beat up here for this but CNC is not unwelcome IMO. I have specific attributes I look for in a guitar neck, for instance my H150gt has a great neck for my hands. I would love to find other just like it but there is not consistency with Heritage. I also have a Collings CL that I like too but I can pick up any CL or I35 or 290 and get that same feel. From a players perspective this is important if I'm changing guitars during a gig. The other thing with cnc is the ability to always have a perfect neck joint which is a must for good tone and sustain.

My personal experience with Heritage guitar quality has not been good but I overlooked it because of price and I have the ability to work on them myself. I had a Super Eagle with overspray on the headstock and file and scrape marks on the fret board. My 150 had horrible file marks on the fret ends and it still has a bit of a rise where the neck joint is. I have file the frets to make it playable with action that I like but eventually I will have to pull the frets and take the rise down with a radius block. These are things that keep potential buyers away and steers them toward guitars made overseas. 

The solution is raise the price and put way more human hours into the guitars to get the final touches right as well as fit and finish. Or, go with cnc and insure better quality and keep the price point closer to where it is now. Move the human element to sorting only the best Woods and couple that with a perfect build and Heritage could be as good as Collings. 

[kidsmoke]

I dunno. Maybe it's because when I read something, I've learned hard lessons about taking what ISN'T there and, filling in the blanks from my own sensibilities, and running with it. Doesn't mean my brain doesn't process those thoughts, it just means I don't go on record with it as someone else's thoughts, intents or deeds. That's what ya'll are doing. Kuz you said it plainly. He said this. And it means that. No. No it doesn't. Additionally, as a nuts and bolts small scale manufacturer for 30 years in North America, I have a wealth of first hand case studies and experiences that simply don't jibe with the narrative here, which is constituted almost entirely of conjecture.

You guys all cite the data...then say 2+2=5. Well, no, it doesn't.

What does it tell you that the core 4 weren't drawing salaries but were shopping the business for years? They NEEDED a buyer. They had debts on some level,  and in order for the business to attract a buyer, the P&L had to meet certain criteria and couldn't other wise. So, for those guys and their families, Plaza corp and Meng likely represent a parachute. Thank goodness and congratulations. It also tells you the business model wasn't sustainable. To your "wish" stated early on, Kuz, you would have liked for them to hang a "gone fishing" sign and been done with it. As would I. But they chose to sell, I ASSUME for a variety of reasons. But that's what these guys, who's praises we sing, WANTED for themselves. They got that. Now, we're are wailing and gnashing our teeth and verbally wishing death and ill on the only other human beings willing to take a RISK and provide jobs, and ostensibly a future for the OTHER half there, and cool product to market. Seriously?? Sorry. Can't endorse that.

So the new business decides to take a step back to take two steps forward, where Heritage is concerned. Remember, Heritage is now a singular component in the portfolio that is 225. There's a group of business entities, production/hospitality/tourism...all represented there now. So they invest in upgraded production capabilities- SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE THE PRODUCT OFFERING - and commit to making HALF AS MANY of the HIGHEST POSSIBLE quality instruments, utilizing THE OLD GUARD AS THE STAFF. This meant laying off the new hires that had been brought on in recent years under Plaza Corp...a real estate developer. Reading into that that it's the laid off folks fault to me is a HUGE, and irresponsible leap. Mind you, at this point, I don't feel I'm defending "The Heritage" that brought us together, but simply digesting a firm making challenging decisions about a incredibly unique and complex business they've committed to transforming. Transformation seldom occurs without "pain" of some degree. 

Now a lot of folks have made statements. Folks close to 225 with credibility...but I think if we're gonna wish death upon folks, we outta at least judge those poor souls on there own words, and not other's observations, feeling, or simple gossip. To my knowledge only one Principle has made a statement regarding this, and I do not read or infer blame upon any former employees. That's what I'm standing up for here. Not allegiance to the new guitar company, but to decency. These are businessmen taking a shot at something worthwhile, at the behest of the core 4.  I say let them live. 

 

for the refresh....Meng's words (emphasis is his, not mine):

I’d like to start by emphasizing the core reason - our goal was and continues to be to return Heritage to a place of stability and sustainability.

Though this is a tough statement to stomach and seems hypocritical when former members of the team now have complete instability in their personal lives, there are still a lot of our treasured craftsmen and colleagues who continue to work at the factory. Instability and unsustainable business practice would ultimately over time result in everybody losing their jobs. 

As I shared in previous posts, we are really trying to look ahead at the next 5-10 years, and it was an essential decision to focus on improving the quality of our guitars - otherwise it would be impossible to compete in today’s market. However, the only way we could do this as a business and to keep producing custom guitars (plans for which I will be able to share soon) was to decide to make fewer guitars, and change the sales strategy for 2018. 

Some companies choose to solve their problems by lowering the quality of their instruments and force dealers to buy more at the same price, but this is not something we could accept or feel right doing because it is a downward spiral. Guitars are crafted works of art and should grow in value over time, like all the guitars historically built in 225 that we know and love - guitars that lose a huge amount of value the minute they leave the shop shows that the system is not working right. 

Making the decision to build fewer guitars than we were staffed up for, meant that there needed to be a reduction in workforce to right size the business and the reason it happened all at once was that we felt it was more respectful to do it all at once instead of unpleasantly over an extended time period like some other companies do. In truth, there was a greater reduction than expected. This was not by choice but there were some additional colleagues who chose to leave who we had hoped would have stayed, but it is important to reiterate that there are no further changes planned and the factory is now looking for replacements. 

[bolero]

nicely put....that was much more eloquent than my little poem!

[kbp810]

Just because some of us have chosen to not support the new company doesn’t mean we wish them death. Maybe it just means “we” are choosing not to support them... if they’re really on the right path, they can stand alone on their own legs just fine without us (and especially without me, I barely even play any more). 

To some (and I realize not all), heritage was much more than just a guitar company. It was history, it was mojo, it was magic, it was guitar builders and company owners that treated us like we were family or long lost friends. Of course we knew that it couldn’t last forever, and so steps in the new owners. We knew there would be changes, and knew that we weren’t going to like all of them... but the laying off of workers was a very polarizing event. Whatever the reason, truly good for the future of the company or not, it was a moment when some of us realized that the new company... is just a company.

Maybe in time they’ll find a way to earn some of us back; but it’s their job to find a way to do that. We shouldn’t all be expected to just instantly give them a pass because they have the same name and address. 

 

[deytookerjaabs]

The company being committed to improving quality is a good thing, and it's nice to see them make those statements. 

 

Those statements were the focus of the rhetoric at the exact time people were laid off, not a press release or statement weeks before hand, or a few months after. 

 

If making the inference that the two are correlated is tantamount to 2+2=5 then I hope you have better luck in court: "Well, no judge, I just argued with her that night then said a few things cuz I was mad about her affair and all, I dunno why she just disappeared like that the next mornin', with all due respect yer honor I'm a smarter guy than you and can see that two plus two don't equal five." 

 

But, I guess the old saying goes "Timing IS NOT everything." 

 

That doesn't preclude it was the companies intent to blame the employees, but because someone themselves is the bastion of logic doesn't mean it's ill of others to make a rather obvious inference. Again, it's great to see the company putting words behind a focus to quality, but it obviously takes a hair of humility more than some are capable of to admit that perhaps the timing was.......odd. 

 

 

Other than that, I 100% agree with all the silver linings mentioned, there is a lot of good to be seen in all this too. 

[High Flying Bird]

47 minutes ago, kbp810 said:

"Whatever the reason, truly good for the future of the company or not, it was a moment when some of us realized that the new company... is just a company.

Maybe in time they’ll find a way to earn some of us back; but it’s their job to find a way to do that. We shouldn’t all be expected to just instantly give them a pass because they have the same name and address."

There you go!  We are bigger than they are.  We are an important part of that mojo we speak of here. 

[Kuz]

7 hours ago, kidsmoke said:

Now, we're are wailing and gnashing our teeth and verbally wishing death and ill on the only other human beings willing to take a RISK and provide jobs, and ostensibly a future for the OTHER half there, and cool product to market. Seriously?? Sorry. Can't endorse that.

 I say let them live. 

 

 

changes planned and the factory is now looking for replacements. 

Kip, this is a bit over the top. 

I never said I wished ill will to the new company, the new owners, or the new employees.  And I didn't once say I wished that I the new Heritage Corp would fail and go out of business.  

All I said is that I am not going to support the new Heritage Corp in terms of buying from them.  Their business model doesn't match my ideals, that's all.

It's like this, (and I am NOT trying to be political) I didn't vote for Trump, but he still is MY President.   I chose not to support him with my vote, but I don't wish him ill will or hope he & the country fails.   Trump has different values, opinions, and ideals than I have.  That doesn't mean I wish him ill will & to fail.  The same for the new Heritage Corp.

[Blunote]

Reference MLive article: Firings of craftsmen take the heart out of Heritage Guitar.  

Reading the article published 2/28 in the Kalamazoo News, leaves me with a number of observations.

• The employees are still using the same processes, methods, and tools as before and do not believe higher levels of quality are possible. They prefer management accept a status quo that management believes cannot succeed.  Regardless, the fired employees feel that the traditional process was good enough in the Gibson years, and that it is what musicians still want.  Accordingly, customers should accept the minor flaws inherent in hand-built guitars for the extra ‘mojo’ it provides.
• They are angry that the owners haven’t accepted this reality.
• On the other hand, management’s vision for the future depends on achieving levels of quality competitive with other leading industry offerings.  Heritage's plan is to greatly expand the market for Heritage guitars to new customers having a more mainstream expectation. ‘Mojo’ loaded quality flaws won’t sell. More so, Heritage can’t afford to disappoint new dealers and customers it has committed quality products to; you usually only get one chance to ruin your reputation with a customer.  Do that and they may as well close the doors for good; hence, their willingness to scrap 300 guitars rather than ship substandard product.
• But for all their good intentions, the new managers, as Arnold Helisky points out, are not guitar builders.  From what I read, the new owners’ experience is in real estate, publishing, and on-line internet business. It’s unlikely they have any rust-belt manufacturing or job shop background so it’s a safe bet they missed the quality revolution that folks like W. Edwards Deming, and Phil Crosby heralded back in the 80’s. As of today, Heritage has been unable to implement a capable manufacturing process; resulting with 300 scrapped guitars. They anticipate modernizing the production facilities with PLEK and CNC.  Until then, they’ve decided to scale back production in an effort to make fewer, but better guitars –and that meant laying off 10 employees.

Given all that, it seems to me that Heritage is trying to work through major changes and without guitar building expertise of their own, need to be able to rely on that of their long term employees.  It seems to me, folks need to decide they’re on the same team and sharing the same objectives. As long as the owners of the company are signing the paychecks, they get to establish those objectives.

Likewise, it really isn’t for the HOC to take sides in all this.  There should be only one side –and that side is the new Heritage.

Going forward, If management’s standards are too high for the current process to support, there will be high scrap rates until they put a capable process in place that can scale to the higher production volumes they expect.  Whether we like it or not, CNC and other automation will be part of that because it has to be.  I appreciate hand craftsmanship more than most, but times move on.  Even high end luthiers like Jim Olson use CNC in the guitar building process.  Prices for an Olson start at $15,000.

 

[High Flying Bird]

2 hours ago, Blunote said:

Likewise, it really isn’t for the HOC to take sides in all this.  There should be only one side –and that side is the new Heritage.

I disagree. 

[davesultra]

5 hours ago, Blunote said:

 

Likewise, it really isn’t for the HOC to take sides in all this.  There should be only one side –and that side is the new Heritage.

 

 

Sorry, but I find that statement to be disturbing to say the least. 

 

[Kuz]

6 hours ago, High Flying Bird said:

I disagree. 

+1

3 hours ago, davesultra said:

Sorry, but I find that statement to be disturbing to say the least. 

 

+1

9 hours ago, Blunote said:

 

Likewise, it really isn’t for the HOC to take sides in all this.  There should be only one side –and that side is the new Heritage.

 

 

Why can't we have questions & opinions? 

"There should only be one side" , that is ridiculous (in my opinion).  We ALL should be able to form or OWN opinions.   I speak for nobody but myself and the same should be for you.

I respect YOUR opinion, but I completely disagree.   

[big bob]

When those ten people came to work, to do the jobs they had been doing for years, they were escorted to their stations to collect their things and then marched out the back door. From what Katie told me some in tears. They were not given an explanation. They were not given a heads up before nor a severance. 

I was taught to treat people the way I would want them to treat me. 

 

[davesultra]

2 minutes ago, big bob said:

When those ten people came to work, to do the jobs they had been doing for years, they were escorted to their stations to collect their things and then marched out the back door. From what Katie told me some in tears. They were not given an explanation. They were not given a heads up before nor a severance. 

I was taught to treat people the way I would want them to treat me. 

 

Absolutely Lance!

Treat people well, and they’ll remember you. Treat people like crap, and they’ll never forget you!

[deytookerjaabs]

I believe the great Walter Sobchak once stated "I'm talking about drawing a line here Dude, and across this line you do not..."

 

Everyone has a different line, whether it's where it's built, or how employees are treated, or what it's made of, or what the guitar looks like, etc etc etc. It's important as consumers and/or fanatics to voice those beliefs especially when they differ. When, and where they can, I've even seen the biggest companies take note and make positive changes on occasion. 

[ElNumero]

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 7:56 PM, zguitar71 said:

I am prepared to get beat up here for this but CNC is not unwelcome IMO. I have specific attributes I look for in a guitar neck, for instance my H150gt has a great neck for my hands. I would love to find other just like it but there is not consistency with Heritage. I also have a Collings CL that I like too but I can pick up any CL or I35 or 290 and get that same feel. From a players perspective this is important if I'm changing guitars during a gig. The other thing with cnc is the ability to always have a perfect neck joint which is a must for good tone and sustain.

My personal experience with Heritage guitar quality has not been good but I overlooked it because of price and I have the ability to work on them myself. I had a Super Eagle with overspray on the headstock and file and scrape marks on the fret board. My 150 had horrible file marks on the fret ends and it still has a bit of a rise where the neck joint is. I have file the frets to make it playable with action that I like but eventually I will have to pull the frets and take the rise down with a radius block. These are things that keep potential buyers away and steers them toward guitars made overseas. 

The solution is raise the price and put way more human hours into the guitars to get the final touches right as well as fit and finish. Or, go with cnc and insure better quality and keep the price point closer to where it is now. Move the human element to sorting only the best Woods and couple that with a perfect build and Heritage could be as good as Collings. 

I am not going to beat you up at all. This is the best summarization I have read yet! While I am not a gigging or pro guitar player, and I have not had such minor issues like you have had, I completely understand your point and perspective. Thank you for sharing that!

[ElNumero]

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 10:56 PM, kbp810 said:

Just because some of us have chosen to not support the new company doesn’t mean we wish them death. Maybe it just means “we” are choosing not to support them... if they’re really on the right path, they can stand alone on their own legs just fine without us (and especially without me, I barely even play any more). 

To some (and I realize not all), heritage was much more than just a guitar company. It was history, it was mojo, it was magic, it was guitar builders and company owners that treated us like we were family or long lost friends. Of course we knew that it couldn’t last forever, and so steps in the new owners. We knew there would be changes, and knew that we weren’t going to like all of them... but the laying off of workers was a very polarizing event. Whatever the reason, truly good for the future of the company or not, it was a moment when some of us realized that the new company... is just a company.

Maybe in time they’ll find a way to earn some of us back; but it’s their job to find a way to do that. We shouldn’t all be expected to just instantly give them a pass because they have the same name and address. 

 

Some people have been immersed in the "Heritage Guitar" mystique since its inception. I was for sure, and you are also Brian, along with Kuz and Big Bob. But I also see the logic that Kip set forth as well. So guess what, we cannot change ANYTHING that has already transpired and history is history, so let's just see what happens going forward. Some of us will be unhappy and hate the "new" company forever, and some of us will be rejoicing if the company is successful.

[ElNumero]

11 hours ago, Blunote said:

Reference MLive article: Firings of craftsmen take the heart out of Heritage Guitar.  

Reading the article published 2/28 in the Kalamazoo News, leaves me with a number of observations.

• The employees are still using the same processes, methods, and tools as before and do not believe higher levels of quality are possible. They prefer management accept a status quo that management believes cannot succeed.  Regardless, the fired employees feel that the traditional process was good enough in the Gibson years, and that it is what musicians still want.  Accordingly, customers should accept the minor flaws inherent in hand-built guitars for the extra ‘mojo’ it provides.
• They are angry that the owners haven’t accepted this reality.
• On the other hand, management’s vision for the future depends on achieving levels of quality competitive with other leading industry offerings.  Heritage's plan is to greatly expand the market for Heritage guitars to new customers having a more mainstream expectation. ‘Mojo’ loaded quality flaws won’t sell. More so, Heritage can’t afford to disappoint new dealers and customers it has committed quality products to; you usually only get one chance to ruin your reputation with a customer.  Do that and they may as well close the doors for good; hence, their willingness to scrap 300 guitars rather than ship substandard product.
• But for all their good intentions, the new managers, as Arnold Helisky points out, are not guitar builders.  From what I read, the new owners’ experience is in real estate, publishing, and on-line internet business. It’s unlikely they have any rust-belt manufacturing or job shop background so it’s a safe bet they missed the quality revolution that folks like W. Edwards Deming, and Phil Crosby heralded back in the 80’s. As of today, Heritage has been unable to implement a capable manufacturing process; resulting with 300 scrapped guitars. They anticipate modernizing the production facilities with PLEK and CNC.  Until then, they’ve decided to scale back production in an effort to make fewer, but better guitars –and that meant laying off 10 employees.

Given all that, it seems to me that Heritage is trying to work through major changes and without guitar building expertise of their own, need to be able to rely on that of their long term employees.  It seems to me, folks need to decide they’re on the same team and sharing the same objectives. As long as the owners of the company are signing the paychecks, they get to establish those objectives.

Likewise, it really isn’t for the HOC to take sides in all this.  There should be only one side –and that side is the new Heritage.

Going forward, If management’s standards are too high for the current process to support, there will be high scrap rates until they put a capable process in place that can scale to the higher production volumes they expect.  Whether we like it or not, CNC and other automation will be part of that because it has to be.  I appreciate hand craftsmanship more than most, but times move on.  Even high end luthiers like Jim Olson use CNC in the guitar building process.  Prices for an Olson start at $15,000.