Support the brand

[deytookerjaabs]

I love living in Nashville because I've run into and made guitar buddies with lots of old school road dog guys who've seen it all, along with current union guys and the dudes I play with. There are no rules, everybody is different, same goes for all my buds back in Chicago on the Jazz and Rock scene. It's pretty rare to meet a versatile dude who has 5+ guitars and they all have the same neck profile, okay, very rare?? Maybe Vince Gill, he does that stuff. Personally, I love them in all shapes and sizes, no neck profile ever kept me from dumping a good guitar, yet, my stable is all over the map.

 

I can say, I've owned vintage and new Gibsons, vintage Epiphones, Heritage, late 70's high end MIJ clones/builds from Aria/Tokai/Greco/Burny/Ibanez, along with playing D'Angelico's, and have played Triggs, Yaron and a few other fancy builder's guitars and can assure folks that damn near every one with Fret Edge binding (with rare exception) there are signs of hand scraping and filing marks up the neck. Some real obvious, other less so, but always signs of it. The only time I don't see it is when the binding is super duper thin (LP reissues) so it's less noticeable or on the USA Gibsons when they had a machine that could do it for a while, in fact, those looked a bit creepy. 

 

Fret edge binding used to be a sign that they were going the extra mile since it's a PITA (especially on MIJ guitars), now in the internet age it's a sign of poor workmanship  

Any guitar with it should come with a warning label. 

 

[Blunote]

Before posting condemnation of Heritage, first ask yourself "what possible good can come of it?". Then ask "what possible harm will it cause?". If the answer is that little or no good can come from it but it may still harm others, then maybe it's best to keep your opinion to yourself.  

The mission of the HOC was to provide a place for Heritage enthusiasts to build a community, and represent the brand in a positive manner.  I've seen the site owner, and other moderators raise that point many times when criticism of the company or products escalated too far.  If that guiding principle has changed, then I'll shut up.

However, before I purchased my first Heritage (2009), I was only vaguely aware of the company's history and checked in to the HOC  to see what it was all about.  The enthusiasm for the company and it's products led me to purchase the Millie I still own.  Had I instead found the site full of dissatisfied customers complaining about a heartless management and poor quality instruments, I would have likely given that Millie a pass.

Is that the sort of result you hope for when you bash the company?

Is that in the best interest of the friends you may still have there?

I'm not trying to threaten anyone's 1st Amendment right to free speech. I just think folks should more circumspect in their comments regarding the company.  Just because you can say something doesn't mean you should.

-Allan

[Yooper]

There is nothing wrong with asking questions and offering opinions on the recent events in Kzoo. Face it. We are not all going to have the same lockstep beliefs. 

If we are worried about undermining the "brand", perhaps this topic shouldn't be in the open forum for all casual visitors to see. 

Sounds like a "Family Tree" matter to me, where we can air our dirty laundry in some privacy.

[Blunote]

4 minutes ago, Yooper said:

If we are worried about undermining the "brand", perhaps this topic shouldn't be in the open forum for all casual visitors to see. 

Sounds like a "Family Tree" matter to me, where we can air our dirty laundry in some privacy.

I didn't realize the 'Family Tree' was hidden from the general public.  Maybe that would have been a better place for all the topics concerning the firings at 225 Parson St.

Just try to see the owners point of view.  They purchased a company, and invested many $Millions in renovations and improvements. There is still much more to do.

So far, they haven't achieved the results they hoped for.  300 guitars get scrapped because of substandard workmanship.  The former workers are blaming the substandard workmanship on having higher standards than a manual process can achieve, and oppose a more automated process that might fix the problem.

What the heck is management supposed to do? 

Stick with a status quo they know will fail?

If you owned the company and it was your life savings at risk, what would you do?  

It's easy to chuck cinder blocks when you don't have skin in the game. 

[Yooper]

7 minutes ago, Blunote said:

Just try to see the owners point of view. 

I'm trying to see everybody's points of view, even the point of view that isn't visible. That would be the one showing all the pertaining facts.

We can hope for success for the company, as well as for the best for the good people we know who built our guitars.

I want to see great guitars continue to be made in Kalamazoo, but the schism is established between what was and what will be. 

Like it or not, this is a "family matter" in many ways. 

[ElNumero]

5 minutes ago, Yooper said:

I'm trying to see everybody's points of view, even the point of view that isn't visible. That would be the one showing all the pertaining facts.

We can hope for success for the company, as well as for the best for the good people we know who built our guitars.

I want to see great guitars continue to be made in Kalamazoo, but the schism is established between what was and what will be. 

Like it or not, this is a "family matter" in many ways. 

Family matter in many ways, and business and profits matter in many ways too.

[deytookerjaabs]

 

 

The dust will settle and it WILL balance out, no doubt. Layoffs, lineup changes, other stuff and much of it brand new to long time Heritage followers including myself. Guitars are still being built and probably quite well. This isn't about free speech IMO, it's a private forum and that's not a requirement, but this is about offering a space where users can be relatively honest regarding their thoughts/experiences/etc with all things Heritage. Whether it's the company direction or a roller bridge, calling for moderating criticisms/reactions is over the top IMO and certainly isn't how most fan sites operate in my experience.

I guess if that's what you want I can tell you one thing....if ya can't vent here there's plenty of sites/avenues to vent at with much higher traffic/viewership than this forum, if that's what you want that's what will happen. 

Look elsewhere, one company just built a Strat and people are flipping their **** over it, talk about overreaction. Makes the HOC look like The Honorable Gentleman/Ladies Club by comparison. 

 

[bolero]

6 hours ago, Kuz said:

+1

+1

Why can't we have questions & opinions? 

"There should only be one side" , that is ridiculous (in my opinion).  We ALL should be able to form or OWN opinions.   I speak for nobody but myself and the same should be for you.

I respect YOUR opinion, but I completely disagree.   

yes....I thought that line was " OVER THE LINE!! " as well, even though I agreed with the rest of the post

this is a place where we should freely be able to discuss Heritage guitars, new and old.

I am hoping for the best from the new owners, and giving them a chance to prove themselves. But totally understand everyone else's perspective on this too

[Kuz]

7 hours ago, Blunote said:

Before posting condemnation of Heritage, first ask yourself "what possible good can come of it?". Then ask "what possible harm will it cause?". If the answer is that little or no good can come from it but it may still harm others, then maybe it's best to keep your opinion to yourself.  

The mission of the HOC was to provide a place for Heritage enthusiasts to build a community, and represent the brand in a positive manner.  I've seen the site owner, and other moderators raise that point many times when criticism of the company or products escalated too far.  If that guiding principle has changed, then I'll shut up.

However, before I purchased my first Heritage (2009), I was only vaguely aware of the company's history and checked in to the HOC  to see what it was all about.  The enthusiasm for the company and it's products led me to purchase the Millie I still own.  Had I instead found the site full of dissatisfied customers complaining about a heartless management and poor quality instruments, I would have likely given that Millie a pass.

Is that the sort of result you hope for when you bash the company?

Is that in the best interest of the friends you may still have there?

I'm not trying to threaten anyone's 1st Amendment right to free speech. I just think folks should more circumspect in their comments regarding the company.  Just because you can say something doesn't mean you should.

-Allan

The moment I can't offer honest opinions and ask honest questions about this company is the moment I am leaving HOC.  No where does it say we have to be fan-boys of Heritage Corp.

And when you say "I just think folks should more circumspect in their comments regarding the company.  Just because you can say something doesn't mean you should."  YOU ARE TELLING ME TO SHUT UP.  HAVE I TOLD ANYONE THEY SHOULD NOT VOICE THEIR OPINION EITHER WAY?  NO I HAVE NOT, BUT YOU CONTINUE TO TELL ME AND OTHERS NOT TO SHARE OUR OPINIONS.  

Sorry Comrade, I am not following your orders. 

[Millennium Maestro]

9 hours ago, big bob said:

When those ten people came to work, to do the jobs they had been doing for years, they were escorted to their stations to collect their things and then marched out the back door. From what Katie told me some in tears. They were not given an explanation. They were not given a heads up before nor a severance. 

AND.... On the following Monday they did the same to Curly because he was not there Friday!

[Kuz]

9 minutes ago, Millennium Maestro said:

AND.... On the following Monday they did the same to Curly because he was not there Friday!

Be careful Guy, you don't want to go on citing facts and make it look less than Rosie for Plaza Heritage.  We are only allowed to read from our government-propaganda censored sources.

Be careful voicing an opinion....

[Millennium Maestro]

Like Kuz and several others,  this is a public forum and I have my own opinions... No one can tell me how to think. If you want to blindly support Heritage, Fine... If you want to see if they can do what they say, Fine!  I BLINDLY PUSHED HERITAGE FOR DECADES, I believed so deeply.

30 days ago I decided to severe business ties with NEW Heritage, it had nothing to do with any of the reasons other members now bring up... It was solely because I don't agree with the corporations method of operation, how the operate on the business side and especially how they treat their dealers and associates.  There is another thread about how many new guitars have we bought? Only 30+ for me and no more purchases in the future! 

I sure hope my GREAT friends at the factory survive and prosper in the new environment... I am routing for them.

7 minutes ago, Kuz said:

Be careful Guy... censored sources. Be careful voicing an opinion....

Go ahead BAN me!  I have better things to deal with than a big brother on my back...

[pro-fusion]

Heritage's business model was partly based on being a classic piece of Americana--a survivor from a different era, in many ways, when it was about producing quality products for working musicians.

The new model looks like it's to be yet another boutique producer of uber-expensive playable wall art. I hope that's not really the case, but it sure looks like it.

On the flip side, I'm not going to pretend that I know the guitar market better than the current owners and operators of Heritage. It may be that the old Heritage simply wasn't viable anymore.

[buzzy]

I must have missed the many questions and some of the opinion sounded like bashing to me (that's my opinion)

Maybe it's too early for suggesting patience & tact - for taking a big drink from that jug of Dr Pangloss' special elixir.  In any case, I believe I'll sit out the rest of this one.

Good luck fixing whatever it is that you see as broken.

 

 

[Blunote]

The moment I can't offer honest opinions and ask honest questions about this company is the moment I am leaving HOC.  No where does it say we have to be fan-boys of Heritage Corp.
And when you say "I just think folks should more circumspect in their comments regarding the company.  Just because you can say something doesn't mean you should."  YOU ARE TELLING ME TO SHUT UP.  HAVE I TOLD ANYONE THEY SHOULD NOT VOICE THEIR OPINION EITHER WAY?  NO I HAVE NOT, BUT YOU CONTINUE TO TELL ME AND OTHERS NOT TO SHARE OUR OPINIONS.  
Sorry Comrade, I am not following your orders. 

Not issuing orders, just expressing MY opinion.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[big bob]

Quote

”Just try to see the owners point of view.  They purchased a company, and invested many $Millions in renovations and improvements. There is still much more to do.”

And yet they walked 11 employees, some who had been there for decades, out the door in tears!!! No warning, No explanation, No severance!! 

These are people, they deserve to be treated better!

[big bob]

What would 6 months severance for 11 people making 12 bucks an hour be 132,00.00 

they don’t have 133k for severance packages but they have millions for infrastructure. 

 

[Blunote]

On 3/10/2018 at 9:10 PM, pro-fusion said:

On the flip side, I'm not going to pretend that I know the guitar market better than the current owners and operators of Heritage. It may be that the old Heritage simply wasn't viable anymore.

Bingo!

On 3/11/2018 at 9:07 AM, big bob said:

What would 6 months severance for 11 people making 12 bucks an hour be 132,00.00 

they don’t have 133k for severance packages but they have millions for infrastructure. 

 

Now you're substituting your business acumen for that of the owners.  Maybe they don't have money left in the budget, or maybe it's not usual practice in this highly competitive market to cough up $132K they don't have to. 

Would you -if it were coming out of your pocket?

Personally, I'd like to see the brand continue, better yet grow as a US based guitar manufacturer. I believe the new owners are muddling through this the best they can. It doesn't look like things are going exactly to plan and they're adjusting. Orders may be delayed.  It might cost a lot more in equipment and consulting than planned. People got laid off. That happens in all businesses sooner or later.

Second guessing it won't fix anything.  Demonizing the new management won't help anybody.

But if expressing your opinion is soooo very important to you that chasing off potential customers for the new company is worth the narcissistic satisfaction, then go ahead -or pick up your toys and go home.

I'd just rather you try to be part of the solution and support the brand.

And with that, I'm done with this thread -lest I start feeding my own narcissism. 

[JeffB]

Lol! wut!

Its a company. Their job is to win over customers and hopefully build a loyal and  diverse fan base and to grow it and farm it for every cent they can. Its not my job or anyone that doesnt have coin in the enterprise to help build that corporation or company.

 

You cant call some one a narcissist  because they just cant find it in themselves to "support" something that isnt what they originally voted for.

 

[buzzy]

5 hours ago, JeffB said:

 

You cant call some one a narcissist  because they just cant find it in themselves to "support" something that isnt what they originally voted for.

 

 

 

After reading some some of the varied "opinions", I believe he probably can - this being the internet and all.  I suppose someone might flag it as violating the HOC name calling rule.  Maybe it was the sledgehammer approach that triggered the term.

 

I doubt I would have been so diplomatic if I tried to start a positive thread with a thoughtful post and it was repeatedly crapped on.  That won't happen to me tho' 'cuz I ain't so full of thought.  I likely would have referenced the Rodney King meme (using the pre-internet meaning of the word).

[ElNumero]

This is from an interview given by Kyle Sobko, marketing director for Heritage, back in April of 2016:

Heritage Guitar Inc. has new owners. And while the creators of the handcrafted small-batch guitars are expecting changes, they may not be the ones you’d assume.

“Everybody thinks you have someone with money come in and they are going to start pumping out guitars on CNC machines and have robots. Nope,” says Kyle Sobko, marketing director for Heritage. “The guitars are going to continue to be handcrafted by the same people with the same equipment. The original owners are going to stay on and we are going to save the stack,” he adds.

The guitars are going to continue to be handcrafted by the same people with the same equipment."

The original owners, Marvin Lamb, formerly plant superintendent for Gibson; James A. Deurloo, former Gibson plant manager and J.P. Moats, Gibson’s former chief of quality control who died late last year, founded Heritage Guitar in 1985 with Bill Paige and Mike Korpak, also former Gibson employees.

The stack is the 70-foot tall red-brick smokestack, emblazoned with the Gibson name, and a local landmark that looms over the factory at 225 Parsons Street, an historical site that was home for Gibson Guitars from 1917 until Gibson moved production to Nashville in 1984. Heritage has been building guitars in the same space, with the same tooling and methods, since 1985.  Step one for the new owners is a weeks-long effort to clean the factory and reorganize, Sobko says, reiterating that Heritage will continue using its original tooling and old-school manufacturing processes. “If you show up in two weeks, you’ll recognize it as the same place, just a little bit cleaner. Everything will be 100% handcrafted. “You can tell that this is a labor of love for everyone in the business. The people have a passion for the business, for the guitars and the building. And part of what was great about the business is that it was built from the ground up by these people, who are great guitar craftsmen. The problem with that was that they didn’t tell the story. There just are not enough people who know about Heritage Guitar.”

 

[Kuz]

18 hours ago, ElNumero said:

This is from an interview given by Kyle Sobko, marketing director for Heritage, back in April of 2016:

Heritage Guitar Inc. has new owners. And while the creators of the handcrafted small-batch guitars are expecting changes, they may not be the ones you’d assume.

“Everybody thinks you have someone with money come in and they are going to start pumping out guitars on CNC machines and have robots. Nope,” says Kyle Sobko, marketing director for Heritage. “The guitars are going to continue to be handcrafted by the same people with the same equipment. The original owners are going to stay on and we are going to save the stack,” he adds.

The guitars are going to continue to be handcrafted by the same people with the same equipment."

The original owners, Marvin Lamb, formerly plant superintendent for Gibson; James A. Deurloo, former Gibson plant manager and J.P. Moats, Gibson’s former chief of quality control who died late last year, founded Heritage Guitar in 1985 with Bill Paige and Mike Korpak, also former Gibson employees.

The stack is the 70-foot tall red-brick smokestack, emblazoned with the Gibson name, and a local landmark that looms over the factory at 225 Parsons Street, an historical site that was home for Gibson Guitars from 1917 until Gibson moved production to Nashville in 1984. Heritage has been building guitars in the same space, with the same tooling and methods, since 1985.  Step one for the new owners is a weeks-long effort to clean the factory and reorganize, Sobko says, reiterating that Heritage will continue using its original tooling and old-school manufacturing processes. “If you show up in two weeks, you’ll recognize it as the same place, just a little bit cleaner. Everything will be 100% handcrafted. “You can tell that this is a labor of love for everyone in the business. The people have a passion for the business, for the guitars and the building. And part of what was great about the business is that it was built from the ground up by these people, who are great guitar craftsmen. The problem with that was that they didn’t tell the story. There just are not enough people who know about Heritage Guitar.”

 

Boy, oh, boy I am nuts for not supporting the new company.  Obviously Plaza Corp Heritage are 100% transparent and have a clear vision & direct marketing message.  You can hear the same verbiage on You Tube Video from Pete Farmer this year at NAMM when he told all the dealers & guitarist the same message (Pete was only speaking what he thought was the truth).

I don't understand why everyone shouldn't support the new company when they are so upfront & genuine?  

And as for supporting Heritage the company, I think buying 12 NEW Heritage guitars over 8 years IS a HUGE sign of support.  How many can say they have supported Heritage that much?

But I know, I am the one that is wrong here....

[buzzy]

17 minutes ago, Kuz said:

Plaza Corp Heritage are 100% transparent and have a clear vision & direct marketing message.  

 

I just had one of those classic "I spit coffee on my screen" events.

 

Does Sobko even work there anymore?  I mean, as long as we're showing people the door . . .

[kidsmoke]

two years has passed since that interview. 2 years. How much has our country changed in 2 years? The business climate? Anyone ever buy a house with a plan for the next couple of years, only to look back a couple years later and say...woah...were we wrong!

I don't consider it in any way disingenuous that a completely different management team chooses a different approach a full 2 years later. How you guys see it as showing a lack of credibility is stunning to me. At that point it's conceivable the potential of a global player with ties to the industry wasn't in there wildest visions of possibility. Then, later, it was. So what. 

6 weeks ago my company had a plan. 60 years of continuous growth. We know our market. Our model. Then the President tweets some shit about tarrifs while performing his morning constitutional...and our entire industry - GLOBALLY - is thrown into a reboot. Looking back on our January meetings in another year, we may not recognize the notes at all. Does that mean we lied? To ourselves? our customers? No. It means we were taking the current realities and planning accordingly. 

I'm not speaking in support of the Heritage management team or ethos. I'm giving you guys a reality check. Seriously. 

[kidsmoke]

36 minutes ago, buzzy said:

Does Sobko even work there anymore?  I mean, as long as we're showing people the door . . .

No. Left last year.