Support the brand

[ElNumero]

1 hour ago, Kuz said:

Boy, oh, boy I am nuts for not supporting the new company.  Obviously Plaza Corp Heritage are 100% transparent and have a clear vision & direct marketing message.  You can hear the same verbiage on You Tube Video from Pete Farmer this year at NAMM when he told all the dealers & guitarist the same message (Pete was only speaking what he thought was the truth).

I don't understand why everyone shouldn't support the new company when they are so upfront & genuine?  

And as for supporting Heritage the company, I think buying 12 NEW Heritage guitars over 8 years IS a HUGE sign of support.  How many can say they have supported Heritage that much?

But I know, I am the one that is wrong here....

Very supportive!

[Kuz]

1 hour ago, kidsmoke said:

two years has passed since that interview. 2 years. How much has our country changed in 2 years? The business climate? Anyone ever buy a house with a plan for the next couple of years, only to look back a couple years later and say...woah...were we wrong!

I don't consider it in any way disingenuous that a completely different management team chooses a different approach a full 2 years later. How you guys see it as showing a lack of credibility is stunning to me. At that point it's conceivable the potential of a global player with ties to the industry wasn't in there wildest visions of possibility. Then, later, it was. So what. 

6 weeks ago my company had a plan. 60 years of continuous growth. We know our market. Our model. Then the President tweets some shit about tarrifs while performing his morning constitutional...and our entire industry - GLOBALLY - is thrown into a reboot. Looking back on our January meetings in another year, we may not recognize the notes at all. Does that mean we lied? To ourselves? our customers? No. It means we were taking the current realities and planning accordingly. 

I'm not speaking in support of the Heritage management team or ethos. I'm giving you guys a reality check. Seriously. 

OK, again, I am nuts trusting what I heard from NAMM Videos only 2 months ago and what I heard direct from their mouths at PSP 7 months ago.   I why should I doubt anything else they have to say or mistrust their current actions?

Since I need a "reality check and obviously I don't know what I am talking about", I have decided to make this my last post and change my view point.

GO Plaza Corp/Bandlad Heritage!!!!  You have my full unconditional support for such a wonderful company!!!  Many happy returns.  Your the best!!!!  I "heart" Plaza/Bandlab Heritage Corp!!!!

 

[kidsmoke]

you put something in quotes that was never written by another. 'nuff said.

[Kuz]

1 minute ago, kidsmoke said:

you put something in quotes that was never written by another. 'nuff said.

Again, you are right again;  "I'm giving you guys a reality check. Seriously." 

Why should I believe  only what I see, read, or hear?

But doesn't matter anymore since I am now officially a "New 100% Unconditional Plaza Corp/Bandlab Don't Any Questions Supporter"  

'nuff said, I agree.

[Steiner]

It really doesn't matter if they lied.  Truth is I supported a company that hand made wood instruments.  That company is gone.  The new company changed the work environment that once nurtured creativity and artistry to a sour place (one of the fired told me at PSP X that he felt like an indentured servant).  Many of these artisans were fired without warning.  

It is my opinion that wood, unlike metals, requires a craftsman to invest time and developed skills to pull the very best the medium has to offer.  Doing so uses "fuzzy" datums and creative alternatives that no autonomous shaping machine can consistently reproduce.  While I adore all my pre-225 Heritages, I will not support any corporation that mindlessly machines wood solely to create objects that look like instruments.

[kidsmoke]

Look, I don't condone character assassinations of people just trying to do a good job. I've said it ad nauseum on this thread and others, I'm not on board with blind allegiance to the Heritage banner. I AM on board with decency, common sense, and facts. That's what I speak in support of. You want to personally trash a marketing guy for sharing the companies vision two years ago, seeing now that that vision changed dramatically with a new ownership arrangement and an altered business model? Go ahead. I won't.  I see people making assumptions and assertions of their own, then judging others based on THEIR OWN spin of the facts. You quotation comment above is a perfect microcosm of that process. You assigned a statement of YOUR construction to someone else, and then reacted to it.  I stand in opposition to that process, not in support of this or ANY brand. 

You said previously my comments were over the top  ... either you missed are are in agreement where members here told other members here to "shove the CNC machines up their ass" (yes, I quote). Never mind that there AREN'T any CNC machines, and that the person they directly addressed is a member of this forum and has been respectful and courteous in his communication with everyone here.  And that wasn't the worst of the comments directed at other living breathing people at Heritage. THAT crap is over the top. You feel I'm over the top calling it out? Fine. I'll own that.  Wings or Weight? Just trying to be wings on a Led Zeppelin it appears. I'll stop. 

Best of luck to everyone trying to build and sell guitars. May they all serve their purpose - make beautiful noise for smiling faces. Cheers. 

[Yooper]

I need an escape from all this dissension and strife. A fun movie, perhaps.

 "Captain America: Civil War" should do the trick.

[davesultra]

32 minutes ago, kidsmoke said:

 

You said previously my comments were over the top  ... either you missed are are in agreement where members here told other members here to "shove the CNC machines up their ass" (yes, I quote). 

Kip,

I want to go on record here, for clarification purposes. I did say Meng could “shove” his CNC machines, however I never stated “where” he could/should shove said CNC machines.

And BTW: I am glad to hear that as of now, there are no plans to utilize such machining. 

[kidsmoke]

appreciate the clarification. my memory failed me. Guilty

[rockabilly69]

I wonder if there were this many naysayers on the old Norlin Forum (joke) when Gibson pulled out and went to Tennessee, because there so many Norlin guitars built by the craftsman at 225 that were the epitome of hand craftsmanship (not!). I've personally known a few sales folk from the Norlin days that had to deal with stores wanting to return stock because of the uneven quality of some guitars coming out of 225. Naysayers say what you will, but personally I will wait for the dust to clear, and see what the company does. And as for the resale value of pre-Meng Heritages, I doubt that will change much, other than with the few Heritage fans that gather here, as they will still be sporting "the headstock", that many people don't like outside of the Heritage community. Let's face it, many people outside of the core group here, got into Heritage guitars because they were ridiculously cheap on the used market, mainly because of their terrible resale value. Check ebay, reverb, and gear page sales to see exactly what I mean. Even with the mods on my older H150, I spent less then $2000 totally for a dialed in guitar. But the only thing left on that guitar that came from 225 was the wood, tuners, strap buttons, and plastic. Same from my other H150! I would like to see a competitively priced guitar come out of the new guard that is dialed in to begin with. 

I can see you guys that were friends with the old guard being upset, and frankly, I don't see anyway that anybody is going to change your minds, so for you, I think this thread is pointless and perhaps a slap in the face. If someone fired my friends I would be pissed too!!! But for me, I would like to see the combination of hand craftsmanship along with some modern production techniques be implemented. If it wasn't for the shake-up and reorganization of the Gibson company we would have never got the Gibson Custom shop, which have built some of the best guitars since the 50's. And now, Gibson steered by the much hated Henry J, has only one profitable area that I know of, and that's the custom shop. And the guy that set it up to what it is is now, and who got fired by Henry J, is working for Heritage. Yes I know they say he will only be working on the Harmony brand, but I hope Edwin Wilson finds his way in to the Heritage guitar side because he has PASSION for guitars and doesn't think in antiquated ways, that frankly, in my not so humble opinion, contributed to burying the old guard at Heritage. I care about great guitars, and would be willing to spend money on a quality guitar coming out of 225! And maybe, they can do it a lower cost than Gibson, which to me have been overpriced for too long.

This will be my last post on the Heritage forum till the dust clears. I came back because of the shake up, but the arguments are just round and round at this point so I will be watching from the sidelines. Especially since my opinion probably goes right against the grain of most of the stalwart supporters of the old guard.

[davesultra]

Too bad to see you pull out. I always love hearing your perspective. Anyway I see you around on a couple of the other forums, so I know where to find ya’.

[Yooper]

Daniel,

Before you go, thanks for the Jeff Beck link. Some of us still like talking about music. 

 

[buzzy]

9 hours ago, Steiner said:

any corporation that mindlessly machines wood solely to create objects that look like instruments.

Yeah, but, how does it sound?

 

PS  not digging on you or trying to get your goad; I just thought that the (Marv?) quote was apropos.

[Steiner]

5 minutes ago, buzzy said:

Yeah, but, how does it sound?

Exactly! 

[Kuz]

18 hours ago, kidsmoke said:

Look, I don't condone character assassinations of people just trying to do a good job. I've said it ad nauseum on this thread and others, I'm not on board with blind allegiance to the Heritage banner. I AM on board with decency, common sense, and facts. That's what I speak in support of. You want to personally trash a marketing guy for sharing the companies vision two years ago, seeing now that that vision changed dramatically with a new ownership arrangement and an altered business model? Go ahead. I won't.  I see people making assumptions and assertions of their own, then judging others based on THEIR OWN spin of the facts. You quotation comment above is a perfect microcosm of that process. You assigned a statement of YOUR construction to someone else, and then reacted to it.  I stand in opposition to that process, not in support of this or ANY brand. 

You said previously my comments were over the top  ... either you missed are are in agreement where members here told other members here to "shove the CNC machines up their ass" (yes, I quote). Never mind that there AREN'T any CNC machines, and that the person they directly addressed is a member of this forum and has been respectful and courteous in his communication with everyone here.  And that wasn't the worst of the comments directed at other living breathing people at Heritage. THAT crap is over the top. You feel I'm over the top calling it out? Fine. I'll own that.  Wings or Weight? Just trying to be wings on a Led Zeppelin it appears. I'll stop. 

Best of luck to everyone trying to build and sell guitars. May they all serve their purpose - make beautiful noise for smiling faces. Cheers. 

Kip, I have always liked you when I saw you in person.  I have not taken any of your opinions personlly.

I don't know why several people can't have different opinions.  I am sure BOTH sides have some validity & accuracy to the discussion.  

I completely understand your point and a lot of it makes sense to me.  But some major points I disagree with.  I never stated anything that was a "character assassination" only calling out what has been stated by employees, NAMM videos, and straight from the mouth of owners at PSP and then these statemets been directly contradicted in their actions. Since their statements have obviously changed, I am now skeptical in trusting their word based on previous statements they have said.  Even IF their business methods & business model has changed, their execution of these changes have not been what I would consider compassionate, upfront, or in line with how I would treat others (again only my opinion) .

I hope that sharing of opinions, whether we HOC members agree or not, should not be taken personally.   I respect  your comments & opinions and I understand your general point.  And while I happen to disagree with it, I have not taken it personally.  So I ask you to try to understand the counterpoint to your statements and not take them personally either.

I have been VERY consistent to insist, everyone here is entitled to their opinion and should be respected in their ability to voice it.   If this has upset some, then I apologize.   This is a discussion forum after all.  I never claimed to have all the absolute answers, only opinions that I believe, and I feel everyone should be able to express their's.  

I too, will stop any more discussions on this topic.  I will wait it out.

[Kuz]

9 hours ago, buzzy said:

Yeah, but, how does it sound?

 

PS  not digging on you or trying to get your goad; I just thought that the (Marv?) quote was apropos.

It was Ren actually, but I get your point.

[Kuz]

12 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

 

This will be my last post on the Heritage forum till the dust clears. I came back because of the shake up, but the arguments are just round and round at this point so I will be watching from the sidelines. Especially since my opinion probably goes right against the grain of most of the stalwart supporters of the old guard.

Kind of silly to take your ball and go home.  I enjoyed having you back.  There are no absolutes in this discussion, just varying opinions.  Why leave just because your opinion is against the grain of some others.  But it's your choice and don't be a stranger.

[DetroitBlues]

Guess it all comes down to wait and see.

We can speculate and judge, but the proof will be in the pudding in the next few months.

Perhaps during PSP, we may be able to witness with our own hands and eyes if the quality has improved.

Like the company or not (or their leadership for that matter) we will have a hands on opportunity come this August to finally judge for ourselves.

[ElNumero]

11 minutes ago, DetroitBlues said:

Guess it all comes down to wait and see.

We can speculate and judge, but the proof will be in the pudding in the next few months.

Perhaps during PSP, we may be able to witness with our own hands and eyes if the quality has improved.

Like the company or not (or their leadership for that matter) we will have a hands on opportunity come this August to finally judge for ourselves.

"Wait and see," probably the best thing to have been said after all the differing viewpoints have been stated. 

[yoslate]

Rashomon.  All of these threads regarding the current state of affairs at Heritage remind me of Rashomon, the '50's Kurosawa film in which one event, a murder, is recounted from four different points of view.  Each point of view is informed by the self-interest of that version of the murder's narrator.  And, ultimately, things are not what they seem.  Of course it comes down to "wait and see."  Despite the alternating applause and wringing of hands about Heritage's acquisition and future, we're just witnesses, bystanders.  We may feel, as owners of Heritage guitars, friends of employees, attendees of PSP's that we have an investment in the company.  But do we?  None of us is walking away with the baby.

[ElNumero]

55 minutes ago, yoslate said:

Rashomon.  All of these threads regarding the current state of affairs at Heritage remind me of Rashomon, the '50's Kurosawa film in which one event, a murder, is recounted from four different points of view.  Each point of view is informed by the self-interest of that version of the murder's narrator.  And, ultimately, things are not what they seem.  Of course it comes down to "wait and see."  Despite the alternating applause and wringing of hands about Heritage's acquisition and future, we're just witnesses, bystanders.  We may feel, as owners of Heritage guitars, friends of employees, attendees of PSP's that we have an investment in the company.  But do we?  None of us is walking away with the baby.

+1000

[heritagefan7]

Binge read all of this. I remember a few ups and downs on the HOC---but mostly ups. That's good. I think people need each other---and that music can be a positive and (IMO) needed part of life. I enjoy the music, the knowledge, the friendship and the freedom on the HOC'! I've seen lots of people even go beyond guitars or music and reach out to offer real help to others in times of need. 

Bottom line, guitars don't make music. They are just tools in the hands of the people who are willing to share their creativity and their life with others. I've always appreciated that that is a foundational part of this forum. Plus, things change over time---so there are lots of Heritage guitars out there that were built a certain way and there will be Heritage guitars out there that will be built another way....and in time that way will change again. I just appreciate the love of music and the good folks who share that on this forum. The value of music and good folks that share it could never be matched by Maple or Mahogany or bindings for me.

BUT....I do appreciate the points made on this and so many threads and always hope that what makes Heritage so loved will always be a part of the company and it's products. 

 

 

[yoslate]

28 minutes ago, heritagefan7 said:

Bottom line, guitars don't make music. They are just tools in the hands of the people who are willing to share their creativity and their life with others. I've always appreciated that that is a foundational part of this forum. Plus, things change over time---so there are lots of Heritage guitars out there that were built a certain way and there will be Heritage guitars out there that will be built another way....and in time that way will change again. I just appreciate the love of music and the good folks who share that on this forum. The value of music and good folks that share it could never be matched by Maple or Mahogany or bindings for me.

 

 

 

This...!