Hard To Believe....?

[LittleLeroy]

This was posted on FB today and I thought I'd share it here.  The 3rd paragraph disturbs me: ..."had to do 2-3 hours....before we could sell Heritages."?  Really?

Jay Wolfe Heritage is fully operational and just shipped us some new Geetars. They have issued a statement and answered some questions BUT not on their web site, which would be nice. I've spoken to the owners & some key craftsmen and things are looking up. They are wanting to re-hire some of the folks that left. They have no CNC and have said they have zero intentions to get any. I actually have told 'em many time I wish they would get a CNC for necks, so we could actually inform buyers about the neck shape & girth, which is difficult with no pattern format. CNC is merely a tool. I've just submitted a followup order for an additional 110 Guitars over what we ordered in Dec. Heritage is financially viable for the 1st time in their history.

Jay Wolfe Unfortunately this was all too common with the original owners, and the new folks listened to us all about these issues and are addressing this. This is their over riding focus- fit & finish & setup improvements AND I'm seeing MAJOR improvements with the instruments we're receiving. The difference is very, very apparent.

Jay Wolfe The Guitars we're receiving are by FAR the finest we've EVER received from Kal., and I have bought, setup, returned & sold more of 'em than anyone alive. I am really pleased with the fit, finish & superior setups they're now doing. Under the previous owners we "had" do do 2-3 hours setup & finish correction, nut replacement, etc. before we could sell Heritages. We did it and the vast majority of our customers were pleased with the worked over Heritage we sent them. The new folks are trying to do it better and they're actually delivering on that goal.

[DetroitBlues]

I think part of that story covers the time to craft a proper nut and use a Plek machine.  That alone could take 2-3 hours.  It’s hard to speculate when Jay himself is not divulging in details either. 

[tulk1]

It was not uncommon for the pre's to need setups. Both of my custom orders came with a charge for setting up before shipping to me. 

Jay sells a boatload of 'em. I'd be inclined to believe it's the straight word.

[yoslate]

...and that post of Jay's was in response to a post in which the OP stated a number of "FACTS" which were anything but, including the "fact" that Parsons Street was currently building no guitars.  Love the interwebs, wherein a fact is whatever any random knucklehead says it is.

[LittleLeroy]

You'll have to forgive my incredulity.  ordered 110 guitars?  = roughly, conservatively, $150,000.  Over how much time?  Not disputing Jay has been, up to now, the world's foremost Heritage dealer.  But "sells a boatload of 'em..."? 

I'm just trying to separate the facts from the hype. 

I've looked at all the guitars produced with an AH110_ _ serial number- supposedly 31 guitars finished *that day* -  that are available on the net and they look fantastic.  But weren't they made before the guys got fired; before Bandlab took over?

 

[tulk1]

1 hour ago, yoslate said:

...and that post of Jay's was in response to a post in which the OP stated a number of "FACTS" which were anything but, including the "fact" that Parsons Street was currently building no guitars.  Love the interwebs, wherein a fact is whatever any random knucklehead says it is.

Yeppers. There's boatloads of that happening lately. And that's a fact (oid). .... 

[Millennium Maestro]

3 hours ago, DetroitBlues said:

I think part of that story covers the time to craft a proper nut and use a Plek machine.  That alone could take 2-3 hours.  It’s hard to speculate when Jay himself is not divulging in details either. 

There are a ton of true Dealer stories!  Jay is in a business relationship with the New entourage and the words he speaks will be biased with business interests in mind. I will confirm that dealers have been a buffer with the QC to the public, out of 40+ I had ONE blown nut that needed replacement, fret inconsistencies were much more common. This does not mean too much because I believe most average buyers play setups that would not expose this weakness, however discerning players have known for decades their personal luthier would turn these guitars into performing BEASTS!
 

Jay will be the biggest in the US, especially with new operating practices that are costing them dealers left and right! I like Jay and I hope his volume will allow him the keep some power with Corporate, the new Dealer agreement is definitely more suited to him.  We all know Plaza and Bandlab have DEEP pockets, Heritage is just a tool to the latter(One wrench in a toolbox).  I suspect there was a great deal to be had on 110 pieces seeing how there was a standing inventory in the mid 400's for NAMM delivery of their 2018 product line.  This is also a good reason to part with half of your blue collar staff when you have too many guitars and not enough orders... the unfortunate side effect of poor business decisions.

2 hours ago, LittleLeroy said:

I've looked at all the guitars produced with an AH110_ _ serial number- supposedly 31 guitars finished *that day*...

L.L. I have tried to help clear up some mis-info on the serials, They have been assigning them at time of order/built sheet and while they are supposed to reflect a date, in the new system they don't!

[LittleLeroy]

1 hour ago, Millennium Maestro said:

There are a ton of true Dealer stories!  Jay is in a business relationship with the New entourage and the words he speaks will be biased with business interests in mind. I will confirm that dealers have been a buffer with the QC to the public, out of 40+ I had ONE blown nut that needed replacement, fret inconsistencies were much more common. This does not mean too much because I believe most average buyers play setups that would not expose this weakness, however discerning players have known for decades their personal luthier would turn these guitars into performing BEASTS!

L.L. I have tried to help clear up some mis-info on the serials, They have been assigning them at time of order/built sheet and while they are supposed to reflect a date, in the new system they don't!

Thanks Guy.  I appreciate the info. 

I admit I'm still confused as to exactly who was in charge when.  Am I correct that Marv, Bill and Jim were still building/overseeing up to some date in 2017?  Can you tell me "exactly" when the keys got handed over and to whom?  "Bandlab" is - to me - just a name of a company.  Is Meng actually on the premises?  Who is managing the day-to-day now?

Can you disclose the dealer buy-in, i.e. how many instruments over what time period?

Sorry for all the questions! 

Also, I meant to include in my post above that those AH110 guitars include the numbered series of 25 H-157's and I must say they look fantastic. 

[Millennium Maestro]

1 hour ago, LittleLeroy said:

Thanks Guy.  I appreciate the info. 

I admit I'm still confused as to exactly who was in charge when.  Am I correct that Marv, Bill and Jim were still building/overseeing up to some date in 2017?  Can you tell me "exactly" when the keys got handed over and to whom?  "Bandlab" is - to me - just a name of a company.  Is Meng actually on the premises?  Who is managing the day-to-day now?

Can you disclose the dealer buy-in...

The 100th anniversary on 225 Parsons was in July, They delayed that celebration to Sept. in able to announce Meng,  Meng's Company is in charge of distributorship as of Feb 1st 2018(Expiration of 2017 Dealer agreement). Plaza is in control of the Factory, Bandlab controls Distribution.

Plaza controls Parsons St. and have Bill and Rendall in front office operations and public relations.  Jim is still active making instruments alongside of Pete Farmer, Marv retired due to Health issues Dec. 2014.
As far as any other Dealer info, I am out... I think there is info on the web if interested in Dealership. I don't think you would want to be involved if you knew what I know but make up your own mind.

Behind all the smoke and mirrors, I have a lot of people I care about down there and I hope and pray for success on their behalf, On my own behalf I own a LARGE herd of guitars manufactured by my friends in the TRUE/old Parsons St. location and Sprayed in the famous booth that the 59's were painted in and I am happy!  I Just wish Harmony was not moving into the original area that is 225 Parsons because I believe Heritage should be there but in the big picture there is more profit to be made marketing American Parson St. built Harmony guitars worldwide.

[ElNumero]

20 hours ago, LittleLeroy said:

Thanks Guy.  I appreciate the info. 

I admit I'm still confused as to exactly who was in charge when.  Am I correct that Marv, Bill and Jim were still building/overseeing up to some date in 2017?  Can you tell me "exactly" when the keys got handed over and to whom?  "Bandlab" is - to me - just a name of a company.  Is Meng actually on the premises?  Who is managing the day-to-day now?

Can you disclose the dealer buy-in, i.e. how many instruments over what time period?

Sorry for all the questions! 

Also, I meant to include in my post above that those AH110 guitars include the numbered series of 25 H-157's and I must say they look fantastic. 

What why does this matter LL ? Are you trying to determine the exact cut off of when the old regime stopped building them??

[LittleLeroy]

Much obliged, Guy. 

I'm not interested in being a dealer, only curious what the deal is. 

Harmony is a totally separate entity from Heritage?  Or is Bandlab going to distribute?  And Edwin Wilson - where does he fit in?  The Harmony web design looks like they took the Heritage design and just changed the images.  Do you know if the amps are being made at Parson St?

https://www.harmony.co/

 

[ElNumero]

18 hours ago, Millennium Maestro said:

The 100th anniversary on 225 Parsons was in July, They delayed that celebration to Sept. in able to announce Meng,  Meng's Company is in charge of distributorship as of Feb 1st 2018(Expiration of 2017 Dealer agreement). Plaza is in control of the Factory, Bandlab controls Distribution.

Plaza controls Parsons St. and have Bill and Rendall in front office operations and public relations.  Jim is still active making instruments alongside of Pete Farmer, Marv retired due to Health issues Dec. 2014.
As far as any other Dealer info, I am out... I think there is info on the web if interested in Dealership. I don't think you would want to be involved if you knew what I know but make up your own mind.

Behind all the smoke and mirrors, I have a lot of people I care about down there and I hope and pray for success on their behalf, On my own behalf I own a LARGE herd of guitars manufactured by my friends in the TRUE/old Parsons St. location and Sprayed in the famous booth that the 59's were painted in and I am happy!  I Just wish Harmony was not moving into the original area that is 225 Parsons because I believe Heritage should be there but in the big picture there is more profit to be made marketing American Parson St. built Harmony guitars worldwide.

Thanks for the great info Guy. Who owns Harmony now by the way?

[LittleLeroy]

3 minutes ago, ElNumero said:

What why does this matter LL ? Are you trying to determine the exact cut off of when the old regime stopped building them??

That and what %6#! is going on there.  Seems completely opaque. 

Also, interesting to know that Jim and Pete and Ren and Bill are still there, which implies they are "comfortable" with the cut in staff and supporting the new production.  At this point I see this as a positive.

[ElNumero]

15 minutes ago, LittleLeroy said:

That and what %6#! is going on there.  Seems completely opaque. 

Also, interesting to know that Jim and Pete and Ren and Bill are still there, which implies they are "comfortable" with the cut in staff and supporting the new production.  At this point I see this as a positive.

I think in time we will all know what is going on there. Until then, lets just enjoy the Heritages we now own!!

[Kuz]

Meng (and Bandlab) bought Harmony guitars and they are going to be produced at 225 Parson St. 

The word I read was Edwin Wilson was ONLY hired to get the Harmony line up and running and then he was leaving.  Again, that is what I have read or heard from reliable sources.   Time will tell if it is accurate. 

[LittleLeroy]

Thanks Kuz.

5 hours ago, Kuz said:

Meng (and Bandlab) bought Harmony guitars and they are going to be produced at 225 Parson St. 

The word I read was Edwin Wilson was ONLY hired to get the Harmony line up and running and then he was leaving.  Again, that is what I have read or heard from reliable sources.   Time will tell if it is accurate. 

 

[ElNumero]

7 hours ago, LittleLeroy said:

Thanks Kuz.

 

In a world where Fender, PRS and Gibson compete for the biggest share of the dwindling guitar market, does anybody really think Harmony will put a dent in the market? Most people are going to view them as "also rans" and the general public does not know who Edwin Wilson is or what his claim to fame was. I see this as just another guitar name out there, amongst the many other hundreds that are already out there.

[bolero]

I think the way they are marketing it will appeal to a large portion of the roots/indie market

also the price point will probably be lower than Heritage? making it more popular

[Jim W]

I believe they are also bringing back the Tiesco brand, but not sure if it will be done in K'zoo.

[Millennium Maestro]

20 minutes ago, Jim W said:

I believe they are also bringing back the Tiesco brand, but not sure if it will be done in K'zoo.

Bandlab (Meng)  Owns 49% of Heritage, 49% of Rolling Stones, Harmony, Tiesco, Mono, Cakewalk and I am sure many other products with more to come.

[tulk1]

Hmmmmmmm.  

 

[jaywolfe]

On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 3:27 PM, LittleLeroy said:

This was posted on FB today and I thought I'd share it here.  The 3rd paragraph disturbs me: ..."had to do 2-3 hours....before we could sell Heritages."?  Really?

*********************

Yes "Really" Murali, in fact the stated 2-3 hours is being kind. It very often required much more time than that. Heritage basically sent us unfinished Guitars and relied on us to set them up, which we did. I refer to this as "old Gibson habits." Most customers were pleased with what we sent them and a few were not happy with the overall fit & finish even after we worked on the nut, frets, finish, often electrical issues (no other brand sends us guitars with a non-working pickup!!) and we almost always needed to buff the lacquer to diminish the excessive swirl. Sadly not everyone was happy with the results, as some guys are simply more particular than most of us. Me- I love my Heritage's and played them with pride, after re-working them some. The point I was "trying" to make is the new owners "listened" to the dealers and promised to make improvements AND they have delivered. I personally don't see this as a bad thing. I worked Heritage's NAMM booth for them for 10 years, and only quit that because I was uncomfortable listening to all the complaints! One standing joke at NAMM is from their former UK distributer, whose line was "Heritage- getting away with it for 25 years." I was forced to hear complaints because the Heritage owners abandoned the booth after about half an hour and spent the time at strip bars & golf courses while I took the heat! Not bitter or anything, just telling it like it was. I actually sent "tools" to my hotel, and went to the show early to file nut & frets and render the show Guitars "playable" as I could, given the circumstances. What maker sends "unplayable" Guitars to NAMM? The point is- we NO LONGER need to do all that. The Guitars I'm NOW receiving from Heritage are playing great right from the box, and the fit & finish is superb. I am so appreciative of the new folks and their focus on quality. It's a good thing! Happy to answer any questions......

 

On ‎3‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 3:27 PM, LittleLeroy said:

 

 

[JeffB]

Strip clubs and golf, sounds like more fun than hanging around with guitar nerds.
That old crew, they really were on to it!

Sent from my SM-J120ZN using Tapatalk

[Kuz]

13 hours ago, jaywolfe said:

Yes "Really" Murali, in fact the stated 2-3 hours is being kind. It very often required much more time than that. Heritage basically sent us unfinished Guitars and relied on us to set them up, which we did. I refer to this as "old Gibson habits." Most customers were pleased with what we sent them and a few were not happy with the overall fit & finish even after we worked on the nut, frets, finish, often electrical issues (no other brand sends us guitars with a non-working pickup!!) and we almost always needed to buff the lacquer to diminish the excessive swirl. Sadly not everyone was happy with the results, as some guys are simply more particular than most of us. Me- I love my Heritage's and played them with pride, after re-working them some. The point I was "trying" to make is the new owners "listened" to the dealers and promised to make improvements AND they have delivered. I personally don't see this as a bad thing. I worked Heritage's NAMM booth for them for 10 years, and only quit that because I was uncomfortable listening to all the complaints! One standing joke at NAMM is from their former UK distributer, whose line was "Heritage- getting away with it for 25 years." I was forced to hear complaints because the Heritage owners abandoned the booth after about half an hour and spent the time at strip bars & golf courses while I took the heat! Not bitter or anything, just telling it like it was. I actually sent "tools" to my hotel, and went to the show early to file nut & frets and render the show Guitars "playable" as I could, given the circumstances. What maker sends "unplayable" Guitars to NAMM? The point is- we NO LONGER need to do all that. The Guitars I'm NOW receiving from Heritage are playing great right from the box, and the fit & finish is superb. I am so appreciative of the new folks and their focus on quality. It's a good thing! Happy to answer any questions......

 

 

Jay, my only question is.... Why would you stay, support, and SELL guitars from Heritage for 25yrs or so when you state that about everyone of them was  so unbelievably SHITTY?   

I don't know any dealer that would continue to sell a product where almost everyone required 2-3hrs of work to make them functional.  That seems like a lot of man hours.   My only guess would be that your profit margins must have been well worth it for you to continue to be the largest Heritage dealer for so long.  

I have bought 4 new Heritages from Wolfe guitars.  Three were set up from Jay and one I received directly from Marv at the factory instead of shipping it to Jay's store in Florida (I didn't see the need to fly it Florida and then fly it up North again to Ohio).  The three I received from Jay were excellent as was the one I got straight from the factory from Marv with only the factory setup.

I also bought 4 custom Heritage orders from a Heritage dealer in Ohio.  I received them direct from the dealer straight out of the box the day they arrived from Heritage, with no dealer setup.   All four of them were again, excellent.

I don't deny that Heritage put out some lemons that needed some basic setup work.  But EVERY guitar I have owned from EVERY guitar company, I have had to make adjustments to them to my personal specs.  

I guess I am extremely lucky (or something) if the 5 custom orders I received direct from the factory (with only a factory setup) only needed a slight change & adjustments in action to my personal tastes (which I have had to do with every of the 50 or so guitars that I have owned).   

Again I am confused as to why you continued to state all the glowing descriptions of Heritage Guitars on your web site and sell them for as long as you did if the quality was SO SHITTY.  Being the world's largest Heritage dealer I assume the profits must have been pretty good for you to go through all that trouble.

Good luck in the future with the new company.  I am sure you will have continued success. 

[deytookerjaabs]

Here's my 2 cents, or 3, or 4, or 5, I gots my morning coffee in hand!!!

 

Okay, where to start, the fretjobs in kalamazoo: Something must have been wrong with the process because the usual factory 20+ in leveling beam doesn't screw up, it's really hard to create high/low frets unless you do it wrong through grave mistakes. So, maybe the slots/tangs were too tight or loose either become low/high after the fact? Maybe there were other errors? Heck, a nut is easier to screw up but still an obvious issue. Good to see they adjusted the process to get it right because it's not tough stuff.

Plek; I think it's great in a factory setting for consistency but even better if you have a well settled guitar (at least 6mo/yr under string tension) and do a custom job for the players needs. That said, having had multiple guitars fresh off the Glaser Plek, do I need it?? Heck no I don't, lol, both of those guitars were sold so that says something. There's a tiny difference in things like fall off in specific areas and custom re-radiusing but the truth is once you get to a certain tolerance two things happen: For one the strings vibrate on such a wide path meaning for X pick attack you can't go any lower and for two the wood still compresses/expands a hair with changing environment regardless of how pretty those frets are. So, if you want stanley jordan action or custom relief/radius plan it's worth it for a bit, for the 95% just get a good fretjob, learn to do them yourself with $150 in tools then do it for life or find an honest dude. If you told a good tech where you want your action at the 1st and 12th fret versus a plek operator are you 100% sure you could tell the difference in a blind test? Again, Plek is great, watch the very informative Glaser tutorials but it is simply an option at your disposal. 

Any road dogs fortunate enough to have a tech travelling along will tell you even after plek jobs etc they're still hitting that axe with the fret rocker and level/file month to month for those who need that uber low action consistently since...you know, the frets are sitting on wood and wood moves. 

Let's talk about that though, fret jobs and fixing nuts. My buddies at Chicago Fretworks used to do "The Works" which was a complete fret level, action set 1st/12th, polish, spray out the pots, clean up for $100, now $115. That's on the north side of Chicago where things aren't often "cheap." Bad nut slot? Hit it with bone dust, spray CA glue, refile the slot, maybe fine sand so it looks smooth...boom, easy fix! There's just not much to it. 

Point being, that to get an excellently set up guitar from a junker isn't really rocket science and by no means a mountain of labor or expense but here we are talking about brand new guitars which have the benefit of no fret pitting and being clean to begin with, yet they require massive hours of in depth repair to the tune of "hundreds & hundreds" of dollars?? Like, Neck Reset money, seriously, might as well just reset those Heritage necks to your preferred pitch while you're at it at those costs, right??

Sure, some folks insist to you that hours and hours of labor plus you need a plek etc are what's involved....as if working on guitars is rocket science done by only the most astute to deliver you the luxury you deserve. Okay, some techs actually have that kind of Ego to be straight but the good ones don't, IMO. Too much watching Car Commercials fellas, consumer culture getting in the brain, it's important to remember guitars are not "Ferrari's"...they don't do any work, mostly they just sit there. The basic work a level headed fella will do to make a guitar excellent is all you need and it's just that: basic, simple work.