Hard To Believe....?

[jaywolfe]

2 hours ago, Kuz said:

Jay, my only question is.... Why would you stay, support, and SELL guitars from Heritage for 25yrs or so when you state that about everyone of them was  so unbelievably SHITTY?   

I don't know any dealer that would continue to sell a product where almost everyone required 2-3hrs of work to make them functional. 

Good luck in the future with the new company.  I am sure you will have continued success. 

Thanks John. I had mixed feelings and came VERY close to quitting many, many times. I didn't because I am perhaps more stubborn than most. You must know Heritage could not keep dealers nor distributers for any number of years due to their notorious QC issues. I did in fact enjoy extra discounts for volume and as Jim Duerloo stated to me many times when I complained- "this is why we give you a better deal Jay, (you pain in the ass you.)" I only stuck it out because I trained my guys to expect & correct Heritage issues and it became routine for us. Other dealers refused to do that, for the most part. Yes- I post truthful & glowing descriptions of Heritages we have for sale- POST correction & re-work. To reiterate- we no longer have to do any of this. I'm "SO" pleased with the many improvements the new guys have done...SO very happy! I just Plek'd a 2015 H535 & the scan looks like the Rocky Mountains! Even "I" wouldn't accept that! I've scanned some recent arrivals and they require no touch-up at all.

   To address your satisfaction with your Heritage's- You are prolly much like me, in that I'm just not all that fussy about fit & finish issues. I like what Zappa said "shut up & play yer guitar." I'm simply not that kinda guy BUT many of my customers are, and they will not accept shoddy workmanship. A manufacturer needs to present a product that will be acceptable to "all" types.  I'm an old school player & I don't like low action- so I can play just about anything.

 

[ElNumero]

Usually, process change comes gradually so I am very curious about what specific changes in their process resulted in the "sudden" 100% increase in quality, or stated another way, the "sudden" elimination of all of the issues that were repeatedly present in all of the guitars that were delivered to Wolfe's shop. When Jay said the new owners implemented changes, what exactly did they do? Retrain the workforce? Implement a comprehensive QC program throughout every stage of production? Or did they empower the workers to halt the production process of a guitar if they noticed a problem along the way? And is this the reason for the purported trashing of 300 finished guitars ?

[jaywolfe]

49 minutes ago, ElNumero said:

Usually, process change comes gradually so I am very curious about what specific changes in their process resulted in the "sudden" 100% increase in quality, or stated another way, the "sudden" elimination of all of the issues that were repeatedly present in all of the guitars that were delivered to Wolfe's shop. When Jay said the new owners implemented changes, what exactly did they do? Retrain the workforce? Implement a comprehensive QC program throughout every stage of production? Or did they empower the workers to halt the production process of a guitar if they noticed a problem along the way? And is this the reason for the purported trashing of 300 finished guitars ?

I never said 100%. I would defer to the owners to answer your question specifically re- improvements. All I can say is the fit & finish, nut (now bone and cut properly), fret work & setup is vastly superior. Jim D. & Pete have both told me the new HVAC, spray equipment, dust control, and overall cleanup  are HUGE improvements and saves them touchup effort ($$). I just received 4 new Heritages and they are so fine.  Just some Kalamazoo personal history- I worked for a large Gibson Dealer in the 60's and the Gibsons we received all required extensive setup & finish touchup. (Gretsch was WORSE) I learned to file frets on those glitchy things. I bought a new Barney Kessel and a new Howard Roberts in 1965. I returned "both" to Kal. because they were unplayable. They kept them months, filed the frets "flat" and rough & returned them all scratched up. I still have both, have re-fretted both & Plek'd 'em also. I just corrected the Kal. issues myself. This is a Kal. tradition- great Guitars, setup poorly and let the dealer or player finish them. I notice when buying a 2nd hand Heritage- they usually play great and have had some degree of fret/nut correction.  It's required! I remember speaking with some famous players at NAMM and hearing them say..." I love my Heritage......of course I had my guy do this, that, and oh yeah- that too....."

[Millennium Maestro]

3 hours ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 ...  Plek; I think it's great in a factory setting for consistency but even better if you have a well settled guitar (at least 6mo/yr under string tension) and do a custom job for the players needs. That said, having had multiple guitars fresh off the Glaser Plek, do I need it?? Heck no I don't, lol, both of those guitars were sold so that says something. There's a tiny difference in things like fall off in specific areas and custom re-radiusing but the truth is once you get to a certain tolerance two things happen: For one the strings vibrate on such a wide path meaning for X pick attack you can't go any lower and for two the wood still compresses/expands a hair with changing environment regardless of how pretty those frets are. So, if you want stanley jordan action or custom relief/radius plan it's worth it for a bit, for the 95% just get a good fretjob, learn to do them yourself with $150 in tools then do it for life or find an honest dude. If you told a good tech where you want your action at the 1st and 12th fret versus a plek operator are you 100% sure you could tell the difference in a blind test? Again, Plek is great, watch the very informative Glaser tutorials but it is simply an option at your disposal. 

Any road dogs fortunate enough to have a tech travelling along will tell you even after plek jobs etc they're still hitting that axe with the fret rocker and level/file month to month for those who need that uber low action consistently since...you know, the frets are sitting on wood and wood moves. 

Let's talk about that though, fret jobs and fixing nuts. My buddies at Chicago Fretworks used to do "The Works" which was a complete fret level, action set 1st/12th, polish, spray out the pots, clean up for $100, now $115. That's on the north side of Chicago where things aren't often "cheap." Bad nut slot? Hit it with bone dust, spray CA glue, refile the slot, maybe fine sand so it looks smooth...boom, easy fix! There's just not much to it. 

Key important factors... I suspect we share the same payability expectations.  Being wood, that guitar will react to changes in seasons, temperatures, geography and especially humidity. I buy Gibsons and I end up doing fret work after hitting my local low humidity enviroment, especially since they don't oil their boards.

The nut dusting is something I would never perform on a NEW guitar... It is simply not ethical in delivery of a new guitar.

[ElNumero]

4 hours ago, jaywolfe said:

I never said 100%. I would defer to the owners to answer your question specifically re- improvements. All I can say is the fit & finish, nut (now bone and cut properly), fret work & setup is vastly superior. Jim D. & Pete have both told me the new HVAC, spray equipment, dust control, and overall cleanup  are HUGE improvements and saves them touchup effort ($$). I just received 4 new Heritages and they are so fine.  Just some Kalamazoo personal history- I worked for a large Gibson Dealer in the 60's and the Gibsons we received all required extensive setup & finish touchup. (Gretsch was WORSE) I learned to file frets on those glitchy things. I bought a new Barney Kessel and a new Howard Roberts in 1965. I returned "both" to Kal. because they were unplayable. They kept them months, filed the frets "flat" and rough & returned them all scratched up. I still have both, have re-fretted both & Plek'd 'em also. I just corrected the Kal. issues myself. This is a Kal. tradition- great Guitars, setup poorly and let the dealer or player finish them. I notice when buying a 2nd hand Heritage- they usually play great and have had some degree of fret/nut correction.  It's required! I remember speaking with some famous players at NAMM and hearing them say..." I love my Heritage......of course I had my guy do this, that, and oh yeah- that too....."

Thank you Jay

[ElNumero]

4 hours ago, Millennium Maestro said:

Key important factors... I suspect we share the same payability expectations.  Being wood, that guitar will react to changes in seasons, temperatures, geography and especially humidity. I buy Gibsons and I end up doing fret work after hitting my local low humidity enviroment, especially since they don't oil their boards.

The nut dusting is something I would never perform on a NEW guitar... It is simply not ethical in delivery of a new guitar.

But do you dust your own nuts Guy? 

[Millennium Maestro]

1 hour ago, ElNumero said:

But do you dust your own nuts Guy? 

No but I am known to polish my helmets.

 

[LittleLeroy]

15 hours ago, jaywolfe said:

 To reiterate- we no longer have to do any of this.

13 hours ago, jaywolfe said:

I never said 100%.

 

I am a total newbie.  Got my first Heritage only a year ago; never been to a PSP; never met any of the folks on the Forum.  I've only bought 1 Heritage new: a 2016 H-155M DC.  Flawless frets, nut and action.  I don't have a particular axe to grind, I just find this all a bit hard to swallow.

10 workers fired; 4 walk out in protest and the largest Heritage dealer posts that the quality has never been better and he no longer has to spend 2 -3 hours setting up each of his 2018 Heritage guitars.

14 hours ago, ElNumero said:

Usually, process change comes gradually so I am very curious about what specific changes in their process resulted in the "sudden" 100% increase in quality, or stated another way, the "sudden" elimination of all of the issues that were repeatedly present in all of the guitars that were delivered to Wolfe's shop. When Jay said the new owners implemented changes, what exactly did they do? Retrain the workforce? Implement a comprehensive QC program throughout every stage of production? Or did they empower the workers to halt the production process of a guitar if they noticed a problem along the way? And is this the reason for the purported trashing of 300 finished guitars ?

I think these are very good questions and I'd like to know the answers, too. 

The bottom line for me is this:  There was no good reason - IMHO -  to post anything about negative about previous ownership.  Why would you go there on a public forum like FB?  It doesn't matter one iota to your previous and prospective customers because, according to you, you've always delivered a superior product no matter what the factory sent you.

But, since you did go there, I do want to know what Heritage's new management has done that has made the remarkable improvement with 14 less people.  And "I would defer to the owners to answer your question specifically re- improvements." really won't do for an answer.  You don't know?  You didn't ask?  You're not at liberty to disclose...? 

 

[Kuz]

3 hours ago, LittleLeroy said:

I am a total newbie.  Got my first Heritage only a year ago; never been to a PSP; never met any of the folks on the Forum.  I've only bought 1 Heritage new: a 2016 H-155M DC.  Flawless frets, nut and action.  I don't have a particular axe to grind, I just find this all a bit hard to swallow.

10 workers fired; 4 walk out in protest and the largest Heritage dealer posts that the quality has never been better and he no longer has to spend 2 -3 hours setting up each of his 2018 Heritage guitars.

I think these are very good questions and I'd like to know the answers, too. 

The bottom line for me is this:  There was no good reason - IMHO -  to post anything about negative about previous ownership.  Why would you go there on a public forum like FB?  It doesn't matter one iota to your previous and prospective customers because, according to you, you've always delivered a superior product no matter what the factory sent you.

But, since you did go there, I do want to know what Heritage's new management has done that has made the remarkable improvement with 14 less people.  And "I would defer to the owners to answer your question specifically re- improvements." really won't do for an answer.  You don't know?  You didn't ask?  You're not at liberty to disclose...? 

 

I think those are honest and fair questions Leroy. 

I would like to know the answers as well.  

[kidsmoke]

Just one point that I think needs to be considered, I'm under the impression that there was recently a dramatic spike in hiring, and the layoff was a correction. These 10 were not all long term employees. I may be wrong.

I remember when I came to the brand in 2010, by virtue of falling for an instrument and learning about the company later, some guitar buds I shared my new infatuation with had impressions of poor quality regarding the brand. I, of course, was incredulous, and accused them of rampant ignorance. Didn't much matter to me. I had mine, and loved it. I wanted a guitar to play, not a collector's item or an investment.

If my livelihood depended in part on the reputation of a brand, and that brand had, in some corners, a less than stellar reputation, and that brand went through a reboot, I would take the opportunity to make the market aware of the new direction, and encourage "ya'll need to take another look".

 

[jaywolfe]

7 hours ago, LittleLeroy said:

 

I think these are very good questions and I'd like to know the answers, too. 

I believe Meng has responded to these type inquiries, so no need for me to defend his or Archie's business. I just believe it's their position to answer this, not mine. I'm happy to answer any questions about my biz, and my inventory. Lord knows me & my employees have spent untold hours answering your questions Murali, and placing instruments on "hold" for you, only to have you renege. I'm pretty sure the Heritage folks will answer your questions freely. Just ask.

7 hours ago, LittleLeroy said:

The bottom line for me is this:  There was no good reason - IMHO -  to post anything about negative about previous ownership.  Why would you go there on a public forum like FB?  It doesn't matter one iota to your previous and prospective customers because, according to you, you've always delivered a superior product no matter what the factory sent you.

>>> I only responded on facebook to correct some erroneous info. You posted it here with my name on it. You never asked me if I minded- which I really don't, but woulda' been nice to ask. Yes- we re-worked almost every Heritage we received for 3 decades. Most dealers simply wouldn't do stuff like that, which is why Heritage could not keep dealers. I was personally responsible for Heritage improving their hardware, cases, pickups, etc. This is all documented and not a secret. Most years I purchased at least "half" their total production, and literally kept them in business- but that's another story that's well documented. I recall telling Archie that fact before he bought Heritage, and he told me that was hard to believe- he called me a week later to give me the numbers and apologize for doubting. He was lied to by one of the owners. Can't tell you how many times they called to have me pre-pay for almost completed Guitars so they could make payroll that week. Wonder if their long time employees are aware of that little fact? Doubt it, but Heritage woulda' folded 15 years ago if I were not so loyal, stubborn and skilled at retailing their Guitars. You obviously have some strange animosity toward me Murali, but it's not justified. I have along and deep history with Heritage. You enjoy their Guitars and appreciate them as I do, but you don't know their sordid history. You don't know who Terry Haselden is and how they screwed him over, not how they mistreated Lane Zastrow. Me, I know where the bodies are buried. It's a sad soap opera, and if I ever write that book- it'd make a Sailor blush.

 

 

 

[ElNumero]

1 hour ago, jaywolfe said:

I believe Meng has responded to these type inquiries, so no need for me to defend his or Archie's business. I just believe it's their position to answer this, not mine. I'm happy to answer any questions about my biz, and my inventory. Lord knows me & my employees have spent untold hours answering your questions Murali, and placing instruments on "hold" for you, only to have you renege. I'm pretty sure the Heritage folks will answer your questions freely. Just ask.

 

You "should" write that book Jay! You could title it "Heritage Guitar-The REAL story behind the company"

[Millennium Maestro]

On 4/3/2018 at 8:44 AM, ElNumero said:

Usually, process change comes gradually so I am very curious about what specific changes in their process resulted in the "sudden" 100% increase in quality

There is NOT a sudden change in quality!  You guys all need to quit dwelling on this incorrect statement.   I am not wasting my time reiterating this... 

Call me I will happily make sense out of all the false and speculative information. In reality Heritage will build guitars, Wolfe will sell a bunch of them and There will never be a perfect guitar. They are playing better out of the box (a 3 year process, the  Jan. acquisition of a plek has helped... the best they can do at the factory) Don't forget guitars change with several outside factors.

[ElNumero]

9 minutes ago, Millennium Maestro said:

There is NOT a sudden change in quality!  You guys all need to quit dwelling on this incorrect statement.   I am not wasting my time reiterating this... 

Call me I will happily make sense out of all the false and speculative information. In reality Heritage will build guitars, Wolfe will sell a bunch of them and There will never be a perfect guitar. They are playing better out of the box (a 3 year process, the  Jan. acquisition of a plek has helped... the best they can do at the factory) Don't forget guitars change with several outside factors.

Three years, now that makes sense!!

[jaywolfe]

1 hour ago, ElNumero said:

You "should" write that book Jay! You could title it "Heritage Guitar-The REAL story behind the company"

I kept a file of notes and photos for years, with intent to do a book BUT the previous owners did a couple of things that soured me on the project. Still have the file, but I lost my enthusiasm for the book. They know who they are.....

 

[Vanschoyck]

1 hour ago, jaywolfe said:

. . .  the previous owners did a couple of things that soured me on the project. Still have the file, but I lost my enthusiasm for the book. They know who they are.....

 

You just sold a bunch more copies.  The book should be written!

 

[Kuz]

5 hours ago, jaywolfe said:

I believe Meng has responded to these type inquiries, so no need for me to defend his or Archie's business. I just believe it's their position to answer this, not mine. I'm happy to answer any questions about my biz, and my inventory. Lord knows me & my employees have spent untold hours answering your questions Murali, and placing instruments on "hold" for you, only to have you renege. I'm pretty sure the Heritage folks will answer your questions freely. Just ask.

 

Not sure if this is a joke or an insult.  I never reneged on buying a guitar in my life.   Although I waited awhile for dealers to order them.... LOL

[jaywolfe]

4 minutes ago, Kuz said:

Not sure if this is a joke or an insult.  I never reneged on buying a guitar in my life.   Although I waited awhile for dealers to order them.... LOL

Actually wasn't replying to you John- different person- name "Murali." Sorry for any misunderstanding. We "always" submitted custom orders in a speedy manner BUT the Kal. guys all too often misplaced, lost, ignored, got the specs wrong, etc.

[jaywolfe]

28 minutes ago, Vanschoyck said:

You just sold a bunch more copies.  The book should be written!

 

Oh Yeah! It'd be a page turner for sure, but then I'd need to go into hiding. = >:)

[LittleLeroy]

2 minutes ago, Kuz said:

Not sure if this is a joke or an insult.  I never reneged on buying a guitar in my life.   Although I waited awhile for dealers to order them.... LOL

He's directing this at me, Kuz.

 

5 hours ago, jaywolfe said:

I believe Meng has responded to these type inquiries, so no need for me to defend his or Archie's business. I just believe it's their position to answer this, not mine. I'm happy to answer any questions about my biz, and my inventory. Lord knows me & my employees have spent untold hours answering your questions Murali, and placing instruments on "hold" for you, only to have you renege. I'm pretty sure the Heritage folks will answer your questions freely. Just ask.

 

No, Jay, I have no particular animosity.  I came very close to sending you money a couple of times!  "renege" and "untold hours" is a bit over the top, though.  Graham, John and you were kind enough to send me pics and answer my questions on the phone and via email. I still have the list of improvements you suggested and made to the Heritage brand that you sent me.  But that's all part of the business of selling a product and I'm sorry if you feel I "reneged" and left you hanging. I spoke with many people and dealers a year ago when I was learning and beginning to buy Heritage.  Your sharing of your knowledge and experience did help me even if we didn't end up doing business then.  

I'd love to read your book about Heritage.  From your reply regarding buried bodies, etc. I get the sense that it's been a long love/hate relationship and why you might feel justified beating up the old guys a bit to make a point about the current quality being much improved.  

I'll try to find answers elsewhere as you suggest.  

[ElNumero]

17 hours ago, jaywolfe said:

Oh Yeah! It'd be a page turner for sure, but then I'd need to go into hiding. = >:)

We could just put you in a witness protection program

[ElNumero]

16 hours ago, LittleLeroy said:

He's directing this at me, Kuz.

 

No, Jay, I have no particular animosity.  I came very close to sending you money a couple of times!  "renege" and "untold hours" is a bit over the top, though.  Graham, John and you were kind enough to send me pics and answer my questions on the phone and via email. I still have the list of improvements you suggested and made to the Heritage brand that you sent me.  But that's all part of the business of selling a product and I'm sorry if you feel I "reneged" and left you hanging. I spoke with many people and dealers a year ago when I was learning and beginning to buy Heritage.  Your sharing of your knowledge and experience did help me even if we didn't end up doing business then.  

I'd love to read your book about Heritage.  From your reply regarding buried bodies, etc. I get the sense that it's been a long love/hate relationship and why you might feel justified beating up the old guys a bit to make a point about the current quality being much improved.  

I'll try to find answers elsewhere as you suggest.  

I agree with LL on this one, there has to be hundreds of "untold" stories about Heritage, some very good, and some probably not so good, nonetheless, it is what it is and you cannot change history. I don't necessarily want to see the 4 original guys portrayed in bad light at all, as I have always respected them greatly, but being a great craftsperson does not always make you a great businessman, so the frustrations Jay experienced over the many years would be interesting to read about in print. I am a good editor by the way, so Jay if you ever undertake this project keep me in mind.

[bolero]

this is weird: I did a search for "Terry Haselden heritage guitar" yesterday, and some archived HOC pages from 2009 came up, with Jay saying a lot of the same things he is saying now

but now I cannot seem to find them?

in any case, after reading it, it appears to me Jay has been consistent with his opinions....at least for the past 10 years....and this is not some fabricated FAKE NEWS being sprung upon the world

[jaywolfe]

9 hours ago, bolero said:

this is weird: I did a search for "Terry Haselden heritage guitar" yesterday, and some archived HOC pages from 2009 came up, with Jay saying a lot of the same things he is saying now

but now I cannot seem to find them?

in any case, after reading it, it appears to me Jay has been consistent with his opinions....at least for the past 10 years....and this is not some fabricated FAKE NEWS being sprung upon the world

I would gain nothing by making up any of this. I am friends with the former Heritage owners, or at least we tolerate each other. We do joke & kid around, but there have been many unnecessary tense times. They have sent me thousands of good Guitars and I have done well with them. I do appreciate them. Only reason I'm posting on this thread is because the OP questioned my integrity, which doesn't sit well with me. Terry is a good friend, but one must not mention the "H" word around him AND he did so, so much to promote the brand all over Europe in the early days. if H had treated him with a bit of respect & fairness, they would've had good biz in Europe & particularly the UK. Quite sure we all realize they are good wood workers/craftsmen and certainly not biz folks, this we know,  but they did old Terry wrong.

[ElNumero]

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 12:29 AM, bolero said:

this is weird: I did a search for "Terry Haselden heritage guitar" yesterday, and some archived HOC pages from 2009 came up, with Jay saying a lot of the same things he is saying now

but now I cannot seem to find them?

in any case, after reading it, it appears to me Jay has been consistent with his opinions....at least for the past 10 years....and this is not some fabricated FAKE NEWS being sprung upon the world

Who is he Bolero?