Mesa "Boogie" Fillmore series

[Yooper]

Nothing wrong with wanting "the ED".  And most every Ed wants to be wanted too.

I still like looking at shiny new stuff, but have no more GAS for amps or guitars. Other than a hollow body with P-90s, of course.

[tulk1]

5 hours ago, Yooper said:

..... but have no more GAS for amps or guitars. Other than a hollow body with P-90s, of course.

 

[rockabilly69]

12 hours ago, JeffB said:

LOL!!

ED = ElectraDyne

Never gonna use initials to save on typing ElectraDyne ever again.

 

I've always thought the Electrodyne was one of Mesa's best!

[JeffB]

8 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

I've always thought the Electrodyne was one of Mesa's best!

 

The 2nd channel on the Electradyne is pretty engaging.

So are the other two.

[tbonesullivan]

Looking at the pricing, the Fillmore is definitely the new "entry level" offering to replace the Express series. I wonder if they will make a stripped-down single channel version.

[davesultra]

2 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

Looking at the pricing, the Fillmore is definitely the new "entry level" offering to replace the Express series. I wonder if they will make a stripped-down single channel version.

I'd be down with that!

[Gitfiddler]

Never looked at the ED...er, um, I mean the Electra Dyne amp before.  However, that looks like a great single channel amp for most club venues. 

 

[tbonesullivan]

See, while it has the controls for volume compensation between the clean and dirty channels, the idea of switching modes with the same settings with a footswitch just doesn't seem useful. At least, that has been my experience. I dial in a sound based on the current gain settings, and then set the volume.

[JeffB]

5 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

See, while it has the controls for volume compensation between the clean and dirty channels, the idea of switching modes with the same settings with a footswitch just doesn't seem useful. At least, that has been my experience. I dial in a sound based on the current gain settings, and then set the volume.

I took one gigging for a while, it wasnt an issue.

Another guy I worked with had a 112 ED combo and after a few gigs he bought in some of his other tasty amps, whacked for sale stickers on them and still only uses the Electradyne.

I went and had a look at the amp today and put a deposit down on it which may end up going on the Fillmore when they get in. Stupid stupid stupid dumb dumb dumb, meh, it'll be okay.

The modes work, generally unless you use extreme settings on one but not the others. For a cover band pop, dance or hard rock/classic you dont really get to the extremes. You retain a good clean and nice texas grind and a good hard rock. It didnt take long to find the balance of the three modes for any of the gigs I did with it.

 I think its one of those amps you have to try out to understand how the channels interact with each other and if it works for you or not. It works for any application I would ever need but my gain requirements are quite ....low .

 

[tbonesullivan]

Well, I get to find out more about modes soon as I continue to get acquainted with my Rivera R Fifty-Five 12. The footswitch switches channels, and engages the "Boost" mode of the "British" channel, and the "Ninja" mode of the "American" channel.

[Gitfiddler]

Spotted this on Reverb...

https://reverb.com/item/13982655-mesa-boogie-fillmore-50-1x12-combo-custom-emerald-bronco-gold-jute

[212Mavguy]

Rant warning...from a former Mesa owner who loved his amp and still gets to hear it often...

Best part about owning a Boogie is their non user adjustable bias.  (allows non tech skilled players to select their bias setting by the rating of the Mesa labeled tubes the factory sells)  Hmmm...those non tech players have never done their own real research on what goes on after the amp input jack to the guitar's sound.   This covers about 90 percent of electric guitar players.

Worst part about owning a Boogie is their non user adjustable bias.  Tech skilled players have their hands tied as far as keeping their power tubes operating in their sweet spot during their lifetime.  THE BIAS CURRENT DRIFTS DOWNWARDS MORE RAPIDLY OVER TIME WITH MODERN PRODUCTION TUBES.  That already cold factory Mesa setting is designed in to help power tubes last longer.  Buuuuuuuut...the ALREADY COLD setting that would be in the factory's selected operating zone will be WAY too cold after a couple hundred hours, especially if an attenuator is being used or the amp is being played very loudly for long periods of time.  Can the owner fix?  NO!  So they are duped to buy the factory tubes too soon and the same cycle happens all over again...

Can they use old stock power tubes with that setup?  Not safely for the amp's sake unless they have a way to measure how much idle current those old tubes are drawing.

The fix...?  buy a Mesa that is out of the 5 year warranty period or toss your warranty into the trash and have an adjustable bias installed.  Freakin' PERIOD. 

In years past I saw little bitty boards with the right goodies designed to be installed in many of the older Boogies on fleabay for like 25 bucks.  They are likely still out there.

Rant over.

My formerly owned Maverick once killed it's power tranny.  That amp is a freak compared to what Mesa ususally offers, it has a so called  "class A" power section that runs it's four el84 power tubes very, very hot... a la Vox AC 15/30.  When I had it replaced my Mesa certified tech Mike Christenson from House of Guitars SLC, UT put in a rheostat with the knob sticking out the back of the chassis, ending up almost factory looking to allow adjustable bias on the fly.  I just turn that knob to set how hot I want those tubes to run, it goes from way less but still enough to slightly less than the uber hot factory setting.  The amp sounds better and the tubes last longer.  I like to set them cooler for acoustic guitar than for electric.  

Hope this helps.

[JeffB]

1st thing I did on any Mesa was put a bias kit in it. Voids warranty.

Never needed to use the warranty but Ive seen other people not so lucky.

 

[HANGAR18]

20 hours ago, JeffB said:

1st thing I did on any Mesa was put a bias kit in it. Voids warranty.

Never needed to use the warranty but Ive seen other people not so lucky.

 

So Jeff, being well versed in your extensive guitar sales history and your position on installing bias kits into Mesa amps, I decided to open Pandora's box today by going to my local Mesa dealer who has also been in the guitar business for decades and also does in-house amp repairs and ask him what he thinks of the whole bias kits for Mesa amps subject.

Well, because he is a genuine guru among all the other gurus currently in this world, his words are often over my head and I am therefore incapable of quoting him exactly. However, what I did gather and leave with was something like this... (I hope I got it accurate.) The new Mesa amps (current production models as opposed to the discontinued models) run really-really hot and only the tubes which they tested, kept for themselves and applied their brand name to will not only work, but last a long time. He basically thinks that running your own bias and tubes in a new Mesa amp will be not only unproductive but kinda scoffs at the idea of some magic tone that people keep chasing and never find.

I concluded that since I have three current production Mesa amps, that I like the tone I'm getting from them, and that if I ever did need any of my amps worked on, he is the only one around here that can do it, that I'm not going do anything with my amps other than just play the darn things as they are. No mods. I want to stay on his good side. hahaha

He also mentioned something about tubes used to be numbered from 1 to 10 and Mesa is currently using the tubes which would be numbered 9 or 10... something like that. He has also told me the story a few times how Mesa receives truckloads of tubes from the manufacturer, they test each tube, keep and brand the ones they like and then return the tubes which they don't want. Those returned tubes then get labeled with someone else's brand name and then they show up on store shelves everywhere with any one of number of different brand names applied to the glass.

 

[JeffB]

The Electradyne runs hot (or warm), the LSC runs cold, Roadking and rec series-cold, Stiletto-cold, Express cold, F series-cold.

I had similar discussions with the local mesa warranty repair guy and with the distributors in house guy, theyre also a "guru's" and well respected. They think the bias thing is a nonsense and adhere to mesa's line.

When you are financially invested in mesa tubes the last thing you want is people putting in bias kits so they can run any tube they want.

Ive installed too many bias kits and sat with too many players while I adjusted the bias to their liking, Ive heard and felt the changes and done side by sides. I couldnt give a rats arse about what some opinionated little guru who is without the inclination to build a bias kit, install it and play while someone adjusts it thinks. Because if he cant do that simple little task he is excluding himself from a big part of the conversation. Bias adjustment doesnt just affect tone, it affects feel, and by a lot. Its the difference between a tight brittle feel, a loose spongy feel and everything in between. Simply installing differently graded mesa tubes into a cold set bias mesa does not do the same thing as a bias control.

 You can play a Mesa in stock standard form and be more than happy, most people do and are. I wont be putting one in the ElectraDyne.

[JeffB]

1 hour ago, HANGAR18 said:

 

 

..... He has also told me the story a few times how Mesa receives truckloads of tubes from the manufacturer, they test each tube, keep and brand the ones they like and then return the tubes which they don't want. Those returned tubes then get labeled with someone else's brand name and then they show up on store shelves everywhere with any one of number of different brand names applied to the glass.

 

Thats misinformation. Its incorrect. Its a great sales tool but its simply wrong. a lot of mesa owners  dont run mesa tubes, visit the Boogie Board and read through some threads and it soon becomes evident that mesa tubes arent all that well regarded by everyone. I certainly never had any increased tube longevity using mesa tubes in cold biased mesa's and neither did every customer who bought a Mesa. Im being more than generous by not saying what I really think about that side of mesa's marketing technique.

[212Mavguy]

JeffB!  Yes!  100% with you.  You might have read some of my posts about bias and tubes in that Boogie forum, I was on there several years ago a bunch.  You said it very well, no pulling punches needed.  

[tbonesullivan]

Specially tested or not, the Mesa Boogie tubes are still the same tubes that everyone else gets from those three remaining tube factories.  The exception of course is that they still have some of the Siemens / RFT German produced tubes that everyone was stockpiling in the 80s and 90s. Rivera used those same tubes, and you can still find other dealers who have them. Mesa also seems to have found some SED EL34s from St Petersburg,  though I wonder if they are the "really hot bias" tubes you see floating around.

Their preamp tubes for the most part are JJs last I checked. The SPAX7 is one tested for microphonics AND that has had a rubber jacket put on to keep it silent.

Their power tubes come from all three factories. The EL84s and 6V6's are JJs, the EL34s are Sovtek/EHX, the 5881s are Sovtek and the KT88 and 6L6GC are Ruby/TAD/Chinese

The rectifier tubes are almost all Sovtek tubes.

There really isn't anything "magical" about the tubes, except that the power tubes are tested to work with the fixed bias that the mesa boogie amps run. For MOST people, who are mainly looking for the massive amount of preamp overdrive that many Mesa Boogie amps provide, they will never need other tubes. The colder bias also does allow more of the hard edge of the overdrive to come out, at least I feel it does. The fixed bias also means that tube dealers can test for tubes that they feel will work well in Mesa Boogie amps.

That being said, how hot or cold a tube is biased definitely affects the tone, in a somewhat predictable way. Colder bias results in a less sensitive power section, but also one that has more clarity and will result in tubes lasting longer. Hotter bias results in a more sensitive power section, that overdrives more easily and will result in reduced tube life.  Biasing "by ear" is a good way to get a sound you like, but it's also a good way to blow up tubes, if the person doing it does not have the proper setup to check the actual percent dissipation that their idle current is set at.

I know some thumb their nose at "matched" power tube sets, but they really do allow a more matched bias current level, which with current production tubes can be VERY different.

[HANGAR18]

8 hours ago, JeffB said:

The Electradyne runs hot (or warm), the LSC runs cold, Roadking and rec series-cold, Stiletto-cold, Express cold, F series-cold.

I had similar discussions with the local mesa warranty repair guy and with the distributors in house guy, theyre also a "guru's" and well respected. They think the bias thing is a nonsense and adhere to mesa's line.

When you are financially invested in mesa tubes the last thing you want is people putting in bias kits so they can run any tube they want.

Ive installed too many bias kits and sat with too many players while I adjusted the bias to their liking, Ive heard and felt the changes and done side by sides. I couldnt give a rats arse about what some opinionated little guru who is without the inclination to build a bias kit, install it and play while someone adjusts it thinks. Because if he cant do that simple little task he is excluding himself from a big part of the conversation. Bias adjustment doesnt just affect tone, it affects feel, and by a lot. Its the difference between a tight brittle feel, a loose spongy feel and everything in between. Simply installing differently graded mesa tubes into a cold set bias mesa does not do the same thing as a bias control.

 You can play a Mesa in stock standard form and be more than happy, most people do and are. I wont be putting one in the ElectraDyne.

 

hahaha I knew I was opening Pandora's box. However note that I did state "current production models" as the parameters which were under consideration for the bias kit treatment or not. The amps you mentioned by name are no longer made (and in the case of the Stiletto... who cares... that thing is a piece of crap). The amps I currently own are also current production models... Mark Five: 25, JP2C, Rectoverb 25 combo. Maybe it is the new or current models which don't need the bias kit?

Also, regarding long tube life, I get the idea that from his perspective that he is specifically speaking to the needs of professional players who always play their amps wide open in front of live audiences. His store never has any of those little rock star wannabees jamming and not buying anything like you see at Guitar Center. (BTW he also has a HUGE collection if vintage Marshall amps in his store too.) I'm no pro so it probably doesn't matter which tubes I use because I'm just an occasional and recreational living room jammer and I'll probably NEVER need to replace tubes because I just don't play that much.

But back to tone though... Do you think that there is a difference in tone for the same amp models based on what voltage they use? Here, very close to Washington DC, we are supposed to have 110v but it isn't consistent and is usually a little under 110 volts. What voltage do you feed your amps in Australia?

[Conneazoo]

I own three MB's. A Nomad 55 combo, a .50 caliber +, and a Dual Rec Roadster. None of them are currently running Mesa branded tubes. I'm an avionics technician by trade. I can and have biased amps. However, I dig the fact that I can (although I know I'm not supposed to) just slap my preferred tubes into my Mesa's and play. I do make sure that I have matched pairs or quads.

As far as the power question. I use a pedal board and a small rack in my gig set up. The only thing that the little rack houses is a power conditioner.

[JeffB]

4 hours ago, HANGAR18 said:

 

hahaha I knew I was opening Pandora's box. However note that I did state "current production models" as the parameters which were under consideration for the bias kit treatment or not. The amps you mentioned by name are no longer made (and in the case of the Stiletto... who cares... that thing is a piece of crap). The amps I currently own are also current production models... Mark Five: 25, JP2C, Rectoverb 25 combo. Maybe it is the new or current models which don't need the bias kit?

Also, regarding long tube life, I get the idea that from his perspective that he is specifically speaking to the needs of professional players who always play their amps wide open in front of live audiences. His store never has any of those little rock star wannabees jamming and not buying anything like you see at Guitar Center. (BTW he also has a HUGE collection if vintage Marshall amps in his store too.) I'm no pro so it probably doesn't matter which tubes I use because I'm just an occasional and recreational living room jammer and I'll probably NEVER need to replace tubes because I just don't play that much.

But back to tone though... Do you think that there is a difference in tone for the same amp models based on what voltage they use? Here, very close to Washington DC, we are supposed to have 110v but it isn't consistent and is usually a little under 110 volts. What voltage do you feed your amps in Australia?

MkV cold bias... I think.  5/25 different kettle of fish.

We are 240v.....lol!! Honestly, its meant to be 240v but it can vary in some older   places according to the time of the day.

 Ive played in the US using 110 and Japan at 100(I think) but Ive never side by side compared amps on 110 and 240, I think Brazil has some homes that run on both 240v and 110v. The transformer set up for location should even things out I guess. We dont have 60hz hum, we have 50hz hum.

 

 BTW, My Fender Concert II has fixed bias but has been about right since 1985(?) when I bought it. Set to 34ma I think. A Mesa LSC is 22ma.

A power conditioner, as Conneazoo mentioned, is a worthwhile investment. Its just one of those utilitarian things that isnt as exciting as a guitar, amp or pedal to buy.

 The Concert II doesnt seem to care too much about the power it receives but the mesa's did. Low power creates a stiff uninspiring feel and thin tone, almost like a preamp tube is dying or the fx loop has dirty connections.

 

 

[JeffB]

4 hours ago, Conneazoo said:

I own three MB's. A Nomad 55 combo, a .50 caliber +, and a Dual Rec Roadster. None of them are currently running Mesa branded tubes. I'm an avionics technician by trade. I can and have biased amps. However, I dig the fact that I can (although I know I'm not supposed to) just slap my preferred tubes into my Mesa's and play. I do make sure that I have matched pairs or quads.

As far as the power question. I use a pedal board and a small rack in my gig set up. The only thing that the little rack houses is a power conditioner.

Nomad 55, I hate that amp. It was great, I loved it. I wanted to smash it. Good sounds.  Most frustrating amp I have owned. Some of the best guitar sounds on gig recordings I have got was using the Nomad. So conflicted about that amp. I would buy another one if one popped up at a good price, no problem what so ever.

 

I gotta start playing again.

 

[Yooper]

With my Mesa DC-5 and 5:25 Express, ignorance is bliss. They do what I want.

I love 'em just the way they are.

[Conneazoo]

1 hour ago, JeffB said:

Nomad 55, I hate that amp. It was great, I loved it. I wanted to smash it. Good sounds.  Most frustrating amp I have owned. Some of the best guitar sounds on gig recordings I have got was using the Nomad. So conflicted about that amp. I would buy another one if one popped up at a good price, no problem what so ever.

 

I gotta start playing again.

 

My take on the three

Nomad - Very picky. However, if you take the time to learn it, it is very rewarding. I think the thing that helped me the most is to draw back all three setting of the EQ (on all channels) a touch as the master volume went up. It'll cut the heads off of people in the room in a second. Also had very good results either tilting the amp back or placing it back to the room.

.50 Cal+ - Very smooth and easy amp to play with. The graphic EQ helps a lot. This amp is any Corrosion of Conformity record or Metallica's Black album with no other effects needed. Cleans are so/so. But, see my previous statement.

Roadster - This amp is a beast and to my ears does all tones well. It loves gain though!! Again, an absolute truck!

When it comes to the power conditioner, you said it yourself above:        "The Concert II doesnt seem to care too much about the power it receives but the mesa's did. Low power creates a stiff uninspiring feel and thin tone, almost like a preamp tube is dying or the fx loop has dirty connections"       This is absolute truth. I don't worry too much about it at home, but you never know what'll happen when playing in a club. I'm sure it's saved me a few times when the club popped a breaker due to a fryer or something else. I also use them on my PA. One at FOH and one in the mains rack.

[tbonesullivan]

If you get some real issues, they do make relatively inexpensive voltage regulators nowadays. That will help correct both over and undervoltages.