H-535 wiring and tone shaping

[Jean]

Following some advice from some of you regarding adjusting the brightness of my guitar , I have played around with the controls and found that by lowering the volume even by 1 ( I have installed knob pointers) I lose a lot of clarity and bite.

As I understand, this is due to the wiring style and the capacitors, here are the specs from the Heritage website;

Electronics: CTS 500K Potentiometers Vishay.022uf capacitors.

As I'm interested in shaping my tone using my guitar controls mainly, this loss of treble is quite problematic, 

So I'm considering changing to 50s style wiring, is this the way to go ?

Also does 50s wiring change the tone when controls are fully open? 

Lastly when using no pedals at all I believe you should have your amp cranked quite loud to get it overdriven right ?

There's a Bonamassa video that demonstrates just that, but he doesn't mention if his amp is painfully loud.

Anyway that's a lot of questions but I love my H-535 !

Cheers

[HANGAR18]

I think you are moving in the right direction. In the absence of anyone who can guide you otherwise, do Google or Bing searches for "treble bleed" and "50's wiring". That ought to make your tone knobs more useful.

 

[deytookerjaabs]

First I'd do Treble bleed and see if that makes you happy. It's easier than removing the whole harness, I did treble bleeds to a number of semi's by just letting half the harness hang in while inching the two volume pots out of the f-hole. 

[mars_hall]

Your guitar/amp is a system with each component shaping what you hear.  The pot (volume/tone) control and cap provide a path to take the the high frequency content out of the path that would normally go to the amp and send it to ground.  For a given cap, the higher value the pot (500K), the less gets directed away from the amp.  Lowering the pot value to 9 (450K) , means less resistance in that path to ground, so more high frequency goes to ground..  If you put a small value cap between the wiper (center lug of pot) and the side of the pot that connects to the pickup hot side,  you can short the path to ground so it bypass the path to ground.  They call this a bleed cap and it can help you keep a portion of the high content leaving the low frequency content alone.  With no volume control and tone control, everything the pickup produces goes to the amp.   

Raising and lowering the pole screws will increase and lower the amount of high frequency content that comes from the pickup.  There is a continuous tradeoff between high and low content as you adjust the distance from the string.  Get too close and you damp (lessen) the high frequency content.  Too far and you lose the low content.  The screw reshapes a lobe of sensing the vibration and harmonic content of the string vibration.  Move it to find your sweet spot.

Amps will go into saturation and clipping (adding harmonic content) as you crank them up.  Each stage of the amp increases the level of AC voltage that initially comes from that pickup.  As you crank each one of these stages in the path, you reach a point where the supply for that stage has given all the current it can provide for the voltage in the path.  Instead of the voltage going higher, the signal is limited by its maximum voltage to that stage and high frequency harmonics (related reflections of the original wave) are added to the original signal and sent to the next stage for further amplification.  If the amp allows you to limit the voltage/current in earlier stages of the amp (master volume/gain controls), the amp volume does not have to be that loud to get the overdriiven (clipping) effect.

In the end, and a short cut through the thought process would be to use a thinner pic and get more high frequency content than a thick pick.  Pinch it at the tip more highs, loosely held away from the tip, less highs.

 

[Petros]

There are other things you can do, for example, a combination of a capacitor and a resistance. Google how PRS does this and it works pretty good. Good luck.

[TalismanRich]

Jean,   the 50s style wiring does change the way the volume control affects the tone.   On my 157,  I tried the 50s wiring, but was not satisfied with it.   I ended up adding the treble bleed circuit to the modern wiring.   I used a 1000pf capacitor in series with a 100K resistor.   

This was what my H157 looked like with the bleed circuit added.   I eventually added it to my 535 as well.

 

There are 3 basic versions of the treble bleed.   I tried all three and prefered the Kinman style mod.  It seemed add back the right amount of high end so that the overall tonal balance was very similar at 7 or 8 to the full volume setting.   

Now,  one thing you might consider if you are OCD about using stuff like vintage Paper in Oil capacitors because they "sound" better than the cheap ceramic disk caps.   The capacitor in your guitar drains off high frequency to ground (see MarsHalls explanation above).   Lots of people will say that PIO capacitors let the best sound through.   Well, the sound you hear is what DIDN'T go through the capacitor.   That seems counter intuitive to me.  

Then the same people who will sell you a $15 or $20 capacitor will sell you a $5 treble bleed circuit with a ceramic capacitor.   The sound you hear is what is bleeding through that capacitor back into the audio feed!   If the capacitor is degrading the sound, then that's the one place you WOULDN'T want to use a ceramic.

If you check, you can find polyester film caps which are the same construction as the Vishay caps that Heritage uses.  Here is one place on Ebay   JK Bookshelf Treble Bleed.

Rewiring a semi is not a trivial task.   I suggest patience if you do the work.   Tape off the f holes if you pull the pots through there.  Otherwise, you can pull the bridge pickup and pull the harness through there.   It is safe, but again,  use some painters tape to protect the finish.

The nice thing about testing in the 157 was that the controls are very accessible.   You can change things, and if you don't like it,  change it back or try a different scheme.  Then when you find the system that sounds best to you,  mod the 535 and be done with it.

Best of luck to you with the mods.   Let us know how things go.

 

[zguitar71]

Ok here is my 2 cents. I play straight in my amps and use only the guitar pots for my volume and tone changes. I set the amp to the level I like for soloing and never touch it after that for the entire gig. I have been playing this way for a number of years and really can’t think of any other way to go. 

The priorities: GOOD POTS IN THE GUITAR! I have RS guitarworks super pots for the volumes of all my guitars. They have the best taper imo. They roll off from max vol slowly and very smoothly all the way to 0. Other pots sometimes have a cliff they fall off and when you are going from a solo to rhythm and singing the last thing you need is an unpredictable volume. 

Change to 50s wiring since you are changing the pot and if that doesn’t work for you add a bleed to it but go with the most mild one first. I find that when the vol is at about 4 or less it gets very clear again with just the 50s wiring alone. It never gets muddy and the space from 4-8 has a bit the treble loss. I usually have the rhythm volume at 3 or so, any more and it is too loud. I will solo anywhere from 4-10 rolling it up as I build the solo. As I’m rolling up it adds a little more treble and helps the effect of coming up in intensity. 

Your amp must be a tube amp (every thing must be driven by tubes) or none of this will work. It also should not be a master volume amp or you will not get it to clean up enough when you roll off the volume. The more simple the circuit the better. For medium and bigger clubs I use a Tungsten Creamawheat with 4x10s. It is plenty loud for solos and cleans up and gets very warm for rhythm and gets so beautiful for leads on about 1 o’clock. For small clubs I use a SF Champ with a mid control added. If you rely on the amp for your break up it will be loud so get a screen, sound guys will love you for it and so will the audience  

Get some killer pickups! Good pickups are a must for great tone across the vol sweep. I have Throwbaks for my Humbuckers (101+ models) and I have Tyson Tonelab 60s P90s. NO WAX POTTING! That is the key to good tone and I never have feed back issues. I have to work to get feed back by putting the guitar directly infront of the amp even with an es335. You do not have to get the same brand but the potting is a real thing and a tone killer. I have used both and will never go potted again. 

I hope this helps, getting rid of the pedals, imo, will make you a better player. It did for me. It will also make you stand out because your tone will be noticed by people that listen. The harmony between the preamp tubes and power tubes creates a tone that is both distorted but at the same time somewhat clean and it also give great singing sustain and is extremely touch sensitive. This is also why a master vol amp is not so great for this set up, there is not a balance between the pre and power tubes. I get compliments and questions at every gig about my tone and how I get it. For some reason running straight into an amp is a lost art. It is a shame really. 

[Jean]

9 hours ago, zguitar71 said:

Ok here is my 2 cents. I play straight in my amps and use only the guitar pots for my volume and tone changes. I set the amp to the level I like for soloing and never touch it after that for the entire gig. I have been playing this way for a number of years and really can’t think of any other way to go. 

The priorities: GOOD POTS IN THE GUITAR! I have RS guitarworks super pots for the volumes of all my guitars. They have the best taper imo. They roll off from max vol slowly and very smoothly all the way to 0. Other pots sometimes have a cliff they fall off and when you are going from a solo to rhythm and singing the last thing you need is an unpredictable volume. 

Change to 50s wiring since you are changing the pot and if that doesn’t work for you add a bleed to it but go with the most mild one first. I find that when the vol is at about 4 or less it gets very clear again with just the 50s wiring alone. It never gets muddy and the space from 4-8 has a bit the treble loss. I usually have the rhythm volume at 3 or so, any more and it is too loud. I will solo anywhere from 4-10 rolling it up as I build the solo. As I’m rolling up it adds a little more treble and helps the effect of coming up in intensity. 

Your amp must be a tube amp (every thing must be driven by tubes) or none of this will work. It also should not be a master volume amp or you will not get it to clean up enough when you roll off the volume. The more simple the circuit the better. For medium and bigger clubs I use a Tungsten Creamawheat with 4x10s. It is plenty loud for solos and cleans up and gets very warm for rhythm and gets so beautiful for leads on about 1 o’clock. For small clubs I use a SF Champ with a mid control added. If you rely on the amp for your break up it will be loud so get a screen, sound guys will love you for it and so will the audience  

Get some killer pickups! Good pickups are a must for great tone across the vol sweep. I have Throwbaks for my Humbuckers (101+ models) and I have Tyson Tonelab 60s P90s. NO WAX POTTING! That is the key to good tone and I never have feed back issues. I have to work to get feed back by putting the guitar directly infront of the amp even with an es335. You do not have to get the same brand but the potting is a real thing and a tone killer. I have used both and will never go potted again. 

I hope this helps, getting rid of the pedals, imo, will make you a better player. It did for me. It will also make you stand out because your tone will be noticed by people that listen. The harmony between the preamp tubes and power tubes creates a tone that is both distorted but at the same time somewhat clean and it also give great singing sustain and is extremely touch sensitive. This is also why a master vol amp is not so great for this set up, there is not a balance between the pre and power tubes. I get compliments and questions at every gig about my tone and how I get it. For some reason running straight into an amp is a lost art. It is a shame really. 

Hey, thanks for your reply, that's exactly the info I needed, I have an H-535 with Seth Lovers , so I'd assume these pickups are good enough, as far as my amp , it's a Peavey Classic 30, which has two channels, a clean one and a lead. If I do what you described with it, I'll get levels that are barely bearable. But I'm not doing gigs at the moment as a guitar player ( I'm a multi instrumentalist) but I have a recording studio and that's where I'm looking for the best tone. We also have a Hot Rod Deluxe Amp at the studio, but that is way too loud to push into break up.. 

Anyway, I will do these experiments with my Classic 30 without changing anything to my wiring yet, and we'll see if that's really necessary. Cheers!

[zguitar71]

The classic 30 on the clean channel should work but your right it will be loud. If you can find a good SF Champ they are great for cranking. You would need to run it through a better speaker. I use an M75 Scumback and it sounds killer but not too loud. For live gigs the screen (and studio) is a real friend maker with the sound guy and audience as well as the bar staff! 

The seth lovers are good pickups and I might be wrong but I think they are not potted either. I think they are the only ones that SD has that are not potted. You should be good there for sure. 

[Gitfiddler]

3 hours ago, zguitar71 said:

The classic 30 on the clean channel should work but your right it will be loud. If you can find a good SF Champ they are great for cranking. You would need to run it through a better speaker. I use an M75 Scumback and it sounds killer but not too loud. For live gigs the screen (and studio) is a real friend maker with the sound guy and audience as well as the bar staff! 

The seth lovers are good pickups and I might be wrong but I think they are not potted either. I think they are the only ones that SD has that are not potted. You should be good there for sure. 

 

This!  Champ or most any quality 5F1 amp will sound killer with an upgraded speaker.

[Yooper]

3 hours ago, Gitfiddler said:

 

This!  Champ or most any quality 5F1 amp will sound killer with an upgraded speaker.

+1

Best amp notion I ever had was to run mine into a 12" speaker. It's mighty growling 5 watt jammer now.

[Jean]

On 9/11/2018 at 2:32 AM, mars_hall said:

Your guitar/amp is a system with each component shaping what you hear.  The pot (volume/tone) control and cap provide a path to take the the high frequency content out of the path that would normally go to the amp and send it to ground.  For a given cap, the higher value the pot (500K), the less gets directed away from the amp.  Lowering the pot value to 9 (450K) , means less resistance in that path to ground, so more high frequency goes to ground..  If you put a small value cap between the wiper (center lug of pot) and the side of the pot that connects to the pickup hot side,  you can short the path to ground so it bypass the path to ground.  They call this a bleed cap and it can help you keep a portion of the high content leaving the low frequency content alone.  With no volume control and tone control, everything the pickup produces goes to the amp.   

Raising and lowering the pole screws will increase and lower the amount of high frequency content that comes from the pickup.  There is a continuous tradeoff between high and low content as you adjust the distance from the string.  Get too close and you damp (lessen) the high frequency content.  Too far and you lose the low content.  The screw reshapes a lobe of sensing the vibration and harmonic content of the string vibration.  Move it to find your sweet spot.

Amps will go into saturation and clipping (adding harmonic content) as you crank them up.  Each stage of the amp increases the level of AC voltage that initially comes from that pickup.  As you crank each one of these stages in the path, you reach a point where the supply for that stage has given all the current it can provide for the voltage in the path.  Instead of the voltage going higher, the signal is limited by its maximum voltage to that stage and high frequency harmonics (related reflections of the original wave) are added to the original signal and sent to the next stage for further amplification.  If the amp allows you to limit the voltage/current in earlier stages of the amp (master volume/gain controls), the amp volume does not have to be that loud to get the overdriiven (clipping) effect.

In the end, and a short cut through the thought process would be to use a thinner pic and get more high frequency content than a thick pick.  Pinch it at the tip more highs, loosely held away from the tip, less highs.

 

Hey, thanks for taking the time to explain all this, for me as I know nothing about electronics and English not being my native language, it is a little difficult to understand the technical side of your explanation, although I get the big picture and I appreciate the information and help!