Heritage Stat Project

[DTiller]

Well...not positive what I've gotten myself into besides being positive that I'm in over my head.

https://reverb.com/item/15140750-heritage-stat-1989-unfinished

Was curious if anyone could guess what model this would have been? I think I know it's a Stat but that's about all. It looks like it's routed for a coil tap, master volume, master tone, and a three way toggle but I have never seen a Stat without either the individual mini toggles or a blade switch. From some additional pictures I got, it looks like it's an 87 instead of an 89 from a pencil date mark in the neck pickup cavity. Any thoughts or input is appreciated! 

[tulk1]

Big 'ol Kahler routing, too. To me it looks like Vol/Tone/MiniToggle/3 way. But yeah, where's the 5-way switching? Nice wood, tho'. 

[DTiller]

Hopefully all the pencil comes off it without a problem because I was a big fan of the wood myself! And yes my other question would be if anyone has experience with the top mounted Kahlers on Stats? I am on the fence on whether to just fill it or not because contrary to what I thought Kahlers are available new, so who knows maybe some of the quality issues are resolved. 

https://www.kahlerusa.com/ 

[DetroitBlues]

I came close to buying that myself, but really didn't need another guitar project and I know the neck would be too flat/thin for my tastes as most Heritages are from that era.

[DTiller]

I have a 93' H-157 with a blade with for a neck so I'm familiar with the territory! Hopefully I can get some updates when it arrives. The seller also believed that the top was still waiting to be carved, but the binding already being on would make me assume it is just a flat top model. I think I have seen Stats both ways but if anyone knows for certain please correct me. 

[DavesNotHere]

That looks like it will have a killer top when it's finished. The top is flat on this one, but it does have an arm contour, at least mine does.

I remember one conversation with Marv on the phone and some how we wound up arguing about the top of my STAT,  " ...but Marv I'm looking right at it. I'm holding it in my hands! It has a countour!" "No it doesn't. Never made one like that"  good times gone.

Anyway , the STAT DLX has a carved top and blade switch. However, Back in the day you could order truly custom options, so it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't have the three mini toggles. 

I don't mind the Kahler on mine, it holds tune fairly well. Mine is 30 years old and I've had a few bits and pieces break over the years, but I've used a website called Wammy World to source parts. You could build a whole trem from scratch if you had to.

Good luck with your project and post plenty of photos.

[rockabilly69]

Throw a nice fretboard of brazilian rosewood on there and a new Kahler and get rocking!

[DTiller]

It's hard to tell on the pictures if there is an arm contour or not so I guess I'll just have to wait and see!

That is a great story with Marv, good luck calling the factory and getting anything like that now:/ he actually took a look at this post for me and thought it was a DLX based on the figuring on the top but didn't do too much examining.

Thanks for the advice on the Kahler, I'll probably stay away from filling the route and see how I like it. I like the look of them so if theu function I'm sold. 

As far as the mini toggles I'm thinking about adding them and leaving the 3 way as well...giving me one position of all there pickups being active so I can turn them on and off from there as I wish...maybe I'll come up with a better plan but I've never had a 3 pickup guitar in all honesty so just brainstorming options at this point. 

And as far as the Brazilian board I'll probably have to stick with either the figured maple or rosewood it's comes with! I figure if I go with the rosewood I can maybe salvage the maple for a headstock veneer and cavity covers but who knows! 

[DavesNotHere]

And for no particular reason, here is a shot of mine.

[pro-fusion]

On 10/24/2018 at 9:43 AM, DTiller said:

Hopefully all the pencil comes off it without a problem because I was a big fan of the wood myself! And yes my other question would be if anyone has experience with the top mounted Kahlers on Stats? I am on the fence on whether to just fill it or not because contrary to what I thought Kahlers are available new, so who knows maybe some of the quality issues are resolved. 

https://www.kahlerusa.com/ 

Kahlers are fine, if you know how to set them up properly. The new Kahlers have a locking screw on one end that locks the cam in place and turns it into a fixed-bridge unit. 

[DTiller]

No need to have a reason to share guitar pictures. That thing is gorgeous, any thoughts on the functionality of the on/off toggles? In theory I like them a lot but I have never actually used a guitar with them installed. 

Thanks for the Kahler tips, it seems like most of the hate I've seen is a result of in-proper use so that makes sense. I didn't realize either that they could be easily locked which is an awesome feature. Appreciate it! 

[big bob]

[Blacker80]

That's badass Big Bob!

[goSteelers]

13 hours ago, pro-fusion said:

Kahlers are fine, if you know how to set them up properly. The new Kahlers have a locking screw on one end that locks the cam in place and turns it into a fixed-bridge unit. 

Here's another two cents on Kahlers.  I have them on a few guitars, from many years ago, and those work fine.  But when I went to get a new one installed on a guitar, my luthier, who I think is pretty good, said that the new kahlers were not good products -- made more cheaply than the old ones, and that they were impossible to install and set up well --  he said that he  has had horrible problems with them, and that he would not guarantee that the guitar would intonate correctly if he installed it. (So I didn't go ahead with it).

That was a few years ago, and maybe things have changed, or maybe he didn't know how to install them correctly (but I kind of doubt that) -- but in any event, you may want to get  some more opinions on their current  product before proceeding, not basing your decision on the old,  original ones.  Talk to some people that  have installed the new ones.

Also, the routing  may  be different on the new ones.  You may be able to find an old one on ebay, etc.

[pro-fusion]

I've heard similar about new vs. old Kahlers. The new Kahlers are directly compatible with the old Kahler 2300 Pro series, which is what would go on this Stat. It's literally four screws into the body in exactly the same spots as on the old ones. You can install and remove them in a matter of a couple minutes.

I've had some of both (currently have a 1986 Charvel and a 1987 Jackson with vintage Kahlers). I did find that the return-to-pitch on the new ones was not quite as true as on the older Kahlers. The relative tuning stability between the strings is just fine on both, but sometimes the cam on the newer ones is less likely to return to as close to the zero point as on the old ones.

Even on the older ones, the return on bending down vs. pulling up on the bar will be to slightly different places. In other words, pulling up and returning will make the guitar go slightly sharp compared to bending the bar down and returning it. There's basically nothing you can do about this. On my Kahlers, I only bend the bar down and set the tuning for that.

You might be better off buying a vintage Kahler on eBay and then refurbishing it as needed with parts from Wammi World. The saddles are the most likely thing that would need to be replaced; the baseplate, cam and springs should be good to go on almost any vintage used Kahler 2300 you buy. Be careful not to buy a Kahler Flyer--that was the cheapo version back in the day, and it's not directly compatible with the Pro that you'd want for this Stat.

Here are a few tips for dealing with Kahlers, based on my own experience:

• Do NOT buy a used/vintage string lock for behind the nut. Buy a new one. For whatever reason, Kahler used (and continues to use) a soft alloy for these. Eventually, the strings wear grooves in the string lock from being clamped. On every old guitar with a Kahler I buy, I immediately replace the string lock with a new one. It's the source of 90 percent of the tuning problems that people complain about with Kahlers.
• When you get this guitar assembled and finished, you do NOT need to crank the string lock screws very tight. Just tight enough to hold the string in place is good enough. Unlike a Floyd Rose locking nut, the Kahler string lock sits behind the nut, so the amount of pressure needed to hold the strings isn't as much. Overtightening will wear grooves in the string lock much sooner.
• If the neck on the Stat is set at an angle, you might need a "stacker plate" from Wammi World to shim the Kahler base plate a little higher. The roller saddles weren't meant to sit really high off the base plate, and you'll get tuning, sustain and tone problems if they do.
• If you buy an old vintage Kahler, odds are that the roller saddles will be gummed up and won't roll freely. This will mess up your tuning. If this is the case, remove the saddles, spray them liberally with WD40 and work the rollers until they move freely. If the rollers still don't move easily or have bad burrs, replace the saddles with new ones. You can also experiment with different roller materials for different tones. I've always preferred the brass saddles, but some folks feel the steel saddles give you closer to a strat tone.
• If the tension on the bar isn't enough for your liking, you can replace the two springs on the underside of the bridge with a set of heavy-duty springs that Kahler makes (originally designed for their bass trem). Jackson included these heavy springs as stock on their guitars with Kahlers back in the '80s. You'll get an improvement in sustain and return-to-pitch with these springs, but they remove some of the springiness in the bar action that I really like.

Some people with Kahlers go lots of trouble to solder the ball ends on their strings when changing strings, among other things. I've never found this type of prep to be necessary. On a guitar with a properly set up Kahler and working string lock, the guitar will hold pitch pretty darned well. Not for as long as a Floyd, but much better than a vintage strat.

[DTiller]

I'll be refering back to this post frequently that's the most in depth overview of Kahlers I've seen anywhere, thanks a ton....I'm thinking a vintage one is the way to go then, saves me some cash so can't complain there! Just might be hard to find the right color but I haven't even settled on a color for the guitar so that's another story....seriously thanks for all the reviews, and the Stat pictures...that's a beautiful Deluxe Big Bob!

[goSteelers]

3 hours ago, pro-fusion said:

I've heard similar about new vs. old Kahlers. The new Kahlers are directly compatible with the old Kahler 2300 Pro series, which is what would go on this Stat. It's literally four screws into the body in exactly the same spots as on the old ones. You can install and remove them in a matter of a couple minutes.

I've had some of both (currently have a 1986 Charvel and a 1987 Jackson with vintage Kahlers). I did find that the return-to-pitch on the new ones was not quite as true as on the older Kahlers. The relative tuning stability between the strings is just fine on both, but sometimes the cam on the newer ones is less likely to return to as close to the zero point as on the old ones.

Even on the older ones, the return on bending down vs. pulling up on the bar will be to slightly different places. In other words, pulling up and returning will make the guitar go slightly sharp compared to bending the bar down and returning it. There's basically nothing you can do about this. On my Kahlers, I only bend the bar down and set the tuning for that.

You might be better off buying a vintage Kahler on eBay and then refurbishing it as needed with parts from Wammi World. The saddles are the most likely thing that would need to be replaced; the baseplate, cam and springs should be good to go on almost any vintage used Kahler 2300 you buy. Be careful not to buy a Kahler Flyer--that was the cheapo version back in the day, and it's not directly compatible with the Pro that you'd want for this Stat.

Here are a few tips for dealing with Kahlers, based on my own experience:

• Do NOT buy a used/vintage string lock for behind the nut. Buy a new one. For whatever reason, Kahler used (and continues to use) a soft alloy for these. Eventually, the strings wear grooves in the string lock from being clamped. On every old guitar with a Kahler I buy, I immediately replace the string lock with a new one. It's the source of 90 percent of the tuning problems that people complain about with Kahlers.
• When you get this guitar assembled and finished, you do NOT need to crank the string lock screws very tight. Just tight enough to hold the string in place is good enough. Unlike a Floyd Rose locking nut, the Kahler string lock sits behind the nut, so the amount of pressure needed to hold the strings isn't as much. Overtightening will wear grooves in the string lock much sooner.
• If the neck on the Stat is set at an angle, you might need a "stacker plate" from Wammi World to shim the Kahler base plate a little higher. The roller saddles weren't meant to sit really high off the base plate, and you'll get tuning, sustain and tone problems if they do.
• If you buy an old vintage Kahler, odds are that the roller saddles will be gummed up and won't roll freely. This will mess up your tuning. If this is the case, remove the saddles, spray them liberally with WD40 and work the rollers until they move freely. If the rollers still don't move easily or have bad burrs, replace the saddles with new ones. You can also experiment with different roller materials for different tones. I've always preferred the brass saddles, but some folks feel the steel saddles give you closer to a strat tone.
• If the tension on the bar isn't enough for your liking, you can replace the two springs on the underside of the bridge with a set of heavy-duty springs that Kahler makes (originally designed for their bass trem). Jackson included these heavy springs as stock on their guitars with Kahlers back in the '80s. You'll get an improvement in sustain and return-to-pitch with these springs, but they remove some of the springiness in the bar action that I really like.

Some people with Kahlers go lots of trouble to solder the ball ends on their strings when changing strings, among other things. I've never found this type of prep to be necessary. On a guitar with a properly set up Kahler and working string lock, the guitar will hold pitch pretty darned well. Not for as long as a Floyd, but much better than a vintage strat.

Good information!  I need to solder the wrap on the  ball end of strings when I change them -- not  for tuning stability, but they break easily if I don't.  I never tried to figure out exactly why.

[Buckyrock]

Try a set of Ernie Ball RPS (Reinforced Plain Strings) strings.  You'll probably need to order them on the internet - I don't find them in stores much.  They won't break and you won't need to solder them.  They work great with Kahlers.

[pro-fusion]

19 hours ago, DTiller said:

I'll be refering back to this post frequently that's the most in depth overview of Kahlers I've seen anywhere, thanks a ton....I'm thinking a vintage one is the way to go then, saves me some cash so can't complain there! Just might be hard to find the right color but I haven't even settled on a color for the guitar so that's another story....seriously thanks for all the reviews, and the Stat pictures...that's a beautiful Deluxe Big Bob!

No problem! The only real downside I can think of with old vs. new Kahlers is that the hole for the trem arm can sometimes be a bit stripped on the old ones, meaning you can't get the arm to be as tight as you'd like. Since the entire cam assembly is made of brass, the threads for the arm aren't as durable as they are on a Fender trem's steel assembly. I've rarely found this to be a huge problem, but it's something to watch.

Kahlers got a bad name back in the day because they look clunky and are fussy compared to a Floyd Rose, but they have a different feel and allow for stable palm-muting and a feel that's more like a TOM bridge. They also eliminate the shimmering effect on the tone that the long springs in the back of a strat body have. That strat sound is great, but it's nice to have a different sound available with a trem.

[DTiller]

I'll add some more pictures when I get them into a format that works on here but here's the guitar after it arrived! Couldn't help doing a little editing to help the flame pop. It's from 2/26/87, and is in pretty much the expected condition. Some dings here and there and some rough spots that could use lots of sanding. Modern Heritage truss rod keys won't fit on the truss rod because it is mounted too close to the back of the route it fits in and was loose enough to finger tighten. This at first seemed like a huge issue but then again there isn't string tension and it seemed to tighten so I'm not sure how concerning that actually is. Rosewood board is very dry and has seen better days but I'm still hoping that it's salvageable. If anyone has any finish suggestions, I'd love to hear them! Or wiring input...at the moment I'm planning on leaving the three way to operate as neck and middle/all three/bridge, with the three on/off toggles that I will add functioning only in the middle position. Also the coil split for the bridge and a series/parallel for the neck and middle...I know NOTHING about wiring and am not even sure if this is possible so any more knowledgeable input would be appreciated. 

 

 

[DTiller]

On 10/27/2018 at 3:23 PM, pro-fusion said:

No problem! The only real downside I can think of with old vs. new Kahlers is that the hole for the trem arm can sometimes be a bit stripped on the old ones, meaning you can't get the arm to be as tight as you'd like. Since the entire cam assembly is made of brass, the threads for the arm aren't as durable as they are on a Fender trem's steel assembly. I've rarely found this to be a huge problem, but it's something to watch.

Kahlers got a bad name back in the day because they look clunky and are fussy compared to a Floyd Rose, but they have a different feel and allow for stable palm-muting and a feel that's more like a TOM bridge. They also eliminate the shimmering effect on the tone that the long springs in the back of a strat body have. That strat sound is great, but it's nice to have a different sound available with a trem.

It was a lot harder than I planned but I was able to find one on ebay. I appreciate your input, first question I asked was whether the arm was stripped in the cam! I'm glad I went with a vintage one too, saved me lots of $$$