"Woman Tone"

[Kazwell]

  I have heard this term used more times than I care to remember regarding a type of guitar tone called "woman tone". I know they usually then refer to Eric Clapton's lead work on Crossroads as an example. 

 

Does anybody have a more descriptive, detailed definition of this and how it is achieved? And why do people name their tones? Eddie Van Halen has the "brown sound". Actually, can't think of too many others.

 

Please no funny remarks until at least one or two folks give a somewhat educated answer  8)

 

Thanks in advance.

[yoslate]

Kaz,

 

It's my understanding that "Woman Tone" refers to that great, hugely underappreciated British blues avatar, Peter Green, (although I don't know the specific reference) during his stint in the early (vintage '69-'70) Fleetwood Mac.  One of the first to latch on to a '59 Paul and shove it through a Marshall.  '59 Paul + middle position + Marshall + fullspeedaheaddamnthetorpedos = "Woman Tone."  If you're at all a blues player, and you're not familiar with this material, you must educate yourself...NOW!  Inspired readings of "The Blues!"  DEFINITIVE blues playing...from the entire band, including two other guitarists of particular note: Jeremy Spencer and Danny Kirwan.  Google "Peter Green" and get to work!  It will be worth it!     

[rooster]

Different opinion here. I have always associated the "woman tone" with a rolled back tone control. Using a paper-in-oil tone cap, you can roll that tone control back to 1 or 2, retaining the growl, and rolling off the high end. Play it through a Marshall that's breaking up, enough to get virtually endless sustain, yet not sound fizzy, and you've got it.

 

rooster.

[Dick Seacup]

My understanding of the origins of "woman tone" is that it refers to Clapton's tone with Cream, when he was playing his Gibson "The Fool" SG or an ES-335.  You essentially have to roll off the highs on the neck pup and play through an amp that's well into the "power tube saturation" zone.  I've never heard it attributed to Green, but he did get some very tasty tone from that LP.  Shame that he burned out so early, because he had truly monstrous talent.

 

Fleetwood Mac was originally named "Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac," before he left the band.  Mick Fleetwood and John McVie carried the Fleetwood Mac name forward with Christine McVie, Stevie Nicks and Lindsay Buckingham.  In my opinion (and I'm not humble about it), PGFM were perhaps the best white blues rock band of that era.  "Live from the Boston Tea Party" contains some very good tracks, including "Jumping at Shadows."  Even better is the "Complete Blue Horizons Sessions, 1967-1969" which has several great takes of "I Need Your Love" and "Need Your Love So Bad."  It also has the inspriation for Santana's version of "Black Magic Woman" (originally penned by Peter Green;  Carlos' take on it was an almost note-for-note copy).  A lot of people (under the age of about 50) think "Green Manalishi" is a Judas Priest original, too...another Peter Green original (and I think he did it better).

[GuitArtMan]

"Woman Tone" explained and demonstrated by the Man himself.  And no it's not Peter Green... 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6...h&plindex=3

[Yankeefan01]

"Woman Tone" explained and demonstrated by the Man himself.  And no it's not Peter Green... 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6...h&plindex=3

 

Guitarman, you took the words right out of my mouth.  It's over at YouTube too. 

[GuitArtMan]

Kaz,

 

It's my understanding that "Woman Tone" refers to that great, hugely underappreciated British blues avatar, Peter Green, (although I don't know the specific reference) during his stint in the early (vintage '69-'70) Fleetwood Mac.  One of the first to latch on to a '59 Paul and shove it through a Marshall.  '59 Paul + middle position + Marshall + fullspeedaheaddamnthetorpedos = "Woman Tone."  If you're at all a blues player, and you're not familiar with this material, you must educate yourself...NOW!  Inspired readings of "The Blues!"  DEFINITIVE blues playing...from the entire band, including two other guitarists of particular note: Jeremy Spencer and Danny Kirwan.  Google "Peter Green" and get to work!  It will be worth it!     

Woman Tone is definitely associated with Clapton, not Peter Green.  Also, I've always associated Green with Orange amps, not Marshalls as these photos indicate:

It's hard to tell whats behind him, or which amp he's pluged into but you can clearly see the Orange stack.

 

http://www.quebbemann.de/ralf/peter_green/pics/petergreen.jpg[/img]

here you can make out the Orange head behind him.

 

But I'm sure he played other amps (Marshalls, Fenders, Voxes, etc.).

[Kazwell]

WOW!!!!!!!

 

B I I I I I I I I G thanks to all you folks!!! I am definately going to look into more about Peter Green, facinating stuff yoslate!!! plus additional info from Dick Seacup!

 

The Clapton youtube clip was great!!!! Liked the vintage photos as well. Thanks GuitArtMan!! and Yankeefan01 for seconding the youtube source!  ( Loved the ciggie headstock "holder" Clapton had on the end of his SG)     

 

rooster, sounds like your definition was dead on to the video explaination.

 

Much appreciated educational replies...

 

- Karma up for everybody!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[golferwave]

  Geez! Look at all of these "educated" answers. And all of these years I thought that "women tone" referred to all of the chicks that wanted to take you home after you just finished a great solo with the three way switch in the rhythm position and the tone control turned down a bit. (sorry Kazwell, I couldn't help myself)

[GuitArtMan]

  Geez! Look at all of these "educated" answers. And all of these years I thought that "women tone" referred to all of the chicks that wanted to take you home after you just finished a great solo with the three way switch in the rhythm position and the tone control turned down a bit. (sorry Kazwell, I couldn't help myself)

In may case I thought it was the tone the women made after I got them home...    ;D

[golferwave]

  That's good!  I'm going to use that line the next time I'm trying to talk one into going home.  Now if I could just get the attention of that Fox at table #3...

[Kazwell]

Quote from: golferwave on Today at 09:24:38 PM

 Geez! Look at all of these "educated" answers. And all of these years I thought that "women tone" referred to all of the chicks that wanted to take you home after you just finished a great solo with the three way switch in the rhythm position and the tone control turned down a bit. (sorry Kazwell, I couldn't help myself)

 

In may case I thought it was the tone the women made after I got them home...  

 

 

Quite alright golferwave and GuitArtMan, I would have been kinda of disappointed if I DIDN'T get some replies like this .

 

I mean come on, with a topic heading that simply states "Woman Tone" I'm pretty much asking for it!!!! ;D

[Cryoman]

Nice thread & I appreciate the education. Cream & Clapton were the start of my playing days... doing "Tales of Brave Ulysses" when I was 13 with my Gibson SG-II....  My then 5 year old, used 1968 solid state Standell amp was such a piece of crap I couldn't have gotten a "woman tone" if my life had depended on it.... 

 

Peter Green is fabulous... "Oh Well".....

 

 

Cheers, Cryoman

[yoslate]

Thanks, guys; I stand corrected.  Leapt before I looked.  "Woman tone," yes, Clapton!  I've been on a Peter Green Jag lately, and thought I had an opportunity to testify.  My bad!

                                                                                                              :-[

[Kazwell]

yoslate, seems Peter Green did have a (signature?) "nasal" tone that could be attributed to him. If you ever buy from a boutique style pickup manufacturer that takes custom orders, the following may be something to request or perhaps someone with some skills in this area could do it themselves.

 

This is actually from the Gary Moore wiki article (Moore had eventually purchased the LP, with it's unique sounding neck PU, from Green):

 

The nasal sound of the neck pick-up on Green's guitar was not, as used to be believed, the result of the pickup having been turned backwards, but instead its two coils had been — perhaps accidentally — reconnected in parallel and out of phase, as per the "in between" positions of a Fender Stratocaster. [Others, such as the late British guitar maker Sid Poole & guitar expert Jol Dantzig (Hamer Guitars), believe the pick-up's permanent magnet was reversed*]. Moore has used this guitar in the recordings of some songs of his albums Still Got the Blues, After Hours and Blues For Greeny.

 

Peter Green and Moore also reportedly had a disagreement regarding what guitar the former was playing in the song "Albatross". Moore insists it was the Les Paul, because the guitar tone was particularly warm and rich in the bass, while Peter Green maintains he was using a Strat, as the vibrato in that song was not finger vibrato, but subtle tremolo arm vibrato.

 

Guitar designer and builder Jol Dantzig recounted a story in Vintage Guitar magazine about investigating the pickup mystery with Moore in the 1980s. What Dantzig actually found was that the neck pickup magnet had been reversed. It was out-of-phase by the magnet being turned around, not by the leads at the pot reversed-wired. "I can't say whether it was done by a repairman or done at the factory originally, said Dantzig, "who knows?"* — actually Peter Green is on record as having done it accidentally himself, however it is unclear if he meant reversing the magnet or the whole pickup.

[yoslate]

Kazwell:

 

Thanks for the posting!  I was afraid I'd be run off the site after my faux pas!  Standards in this neighborhood are pretty high!  I did, in fact, many years ago, reverse a magnet in my Paul for a time to get just that out-of-phase tone!  That's all it took!  So you're dead on it.  Enjoyed the details in your posting.  I've been doing a total immersion Peter Green thing for about two months now.  Not so much historical "research," obviously, just listening...really hard.  A very rich source! 

[Dick Seacup]

No kidding, that was a very informative post, Kazwell.  I had no idea Jol had that any interaction with Moore, let alone having looked at the Green LP.  I learn something (at least one!) new every day.  Thanks for sharing that.

[Phantom00]

A lot of people (under the age of about 50) think "Green Manalishi" is a Judas Priest original, too...another Peter Green original (and I think he did it better).

 

I like the Priest version myself  ;D:

 

Fleetwood Mac original: http://youtube.com/watch?v=qoSbrTwA4ps

[Dick Seacup]

I like the Priest version myself  ;D:

 

Fleetwood Mac original: http://youtube.com/watch?v=qoSbrTwA4ps

 

No you don't, you're blinded by the glare off Tipton's mirrored pickguard on that Phantom GT, that's all.  ;D

 

The JP version has always been "fuller" sounding than the original; Green's tone is thin and brittle in that clip you linked to, f'rinstance.  But, I think that because the subject matter was so personal to Green there is a lot more emotion coming through in his playing than in Priest's.  But, hey, it's all good.

 

Welcome to the Club, by the way.