Gitfiddler Posted January 30, 2019 Posted January 30, 2019 Looking at some of the 2019 NAMM threads on this and other guitar forums, as well as Reverb, it seems that Heritage new guitar pricing is fairly close to Gibson. This excludes custom shop or custom builds, of course. Gibson has a ton of WAY overpriced models, as usual. But many of the run of the mill LP Standards vs. H150 and ES335 vs. H535 seem pretty close MAP.
Spectrum13 Posted January 30, 2019 Posted January 30, 2019 GIbson dropped their prices to "reasonable"?
brentrocks Posted January 30, 2019 Posted January 30, 2019 My brother in law just bought a new Les Paul standard and it’s really nice. Great quality. Probably a fluke. Lol
DetroitBlues Posted January 30, 2019 Posted January 30, 2019 I like what Gibson is doing... Dropped Traditional name, now it’s called Standard. And just like what I’ve said years ago about Heritage... Two Standard neck sizes! 50’s Standard with a 59 neck. (Bursts w/ humbuckers and Goldtop w/ P 90’s; Kluson Tuners and ABR-1 Bridge) 60’s Standard with a 60’s neck. (Bursts with a Nashville Bridge and Grover tuners) Specials and Juniors back to original specs. SG’s with three different bridge options...
Buckyrock Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 I think Heritage used to have a price advantage over Gibson. Now, I don't think they do. It appears Heritage is trying to go toe-to-toe with Gibson. I don't think it's a good idea.
HANGAR18 Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 6 minutes ago, Buckyrock said: I think Heritage used to have a price advantage over Gibson. Now, I don't think they do. It appears Heritage is trying to go toe-to-toe with Gibson. I don't think it's a good idea. Agreed. Let's say that Gibson and Heritage both accomplish putting out guitars that are identical in materials and craftsmanship... wouldn't it be better to buy a Gibson just for the better known brand name and potential future value if you are buying one as an investment? A much safer investment.
yoslate Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 51 minutes ago, HANGAR18 said: Agreed. Let's say that Gibson and Heritage both accomplish putting out guitars that are identical in materials and craftsmanship... wouldn't it be better to buy a Gibson just for the better known brand name and potential future value if you are buying one as an investment? A much safer investment. Back to the future....
FredZepp Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 I own and enjoy US production Les Pauls and Historic Les Pauls and a big variety of ones in between . New Historics by Gibson go for $6,500 for a '59 or '60 reissue with '58's being the bargain model at $4,999. And there's a bunch of Gibson Custom Shop models way above those prices. The sites I visit that concentrate on Gibson's upper end of guitars certainly wouldn't be too shocked with a $3,999 guitar. Heritage has never been trying to beat Gibson at the mass production game... a Heritage of Kalamazoo is special instrument. Some appreciate that , some don't . But with the quality of the wood selection that they use and the traditional craftsmanship that they employ in making their instruments, they do have the appreciation of many musicians. I love the new creative imagination that is going into building unique Custom Shop Heritage instruments for those in the market for such a thing. Yes, there are mass production Gibsons that work well for less and then there are Japanese versions for less than that and Korean versions for less than that. But Heritage was never set up to win a race to the bottom. So they have to build value in the famous Parsons Street craftsmanship for those of us that admire such a rare thing in a musical instrument. Do they feel and play different from a US production Gibson? Does Heritage use different manufacturing techniques and different woods ? I'd say yes. Especially these custom shop models.
deytookerjaabs Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 Yeah, Heritage is a bit different no doubt. That said, Gibson has that huge advantage of you can get'em new either at the end of year or on the sales floor for 2/3rds the price at times and for the higher end Custom Shop stuff you can really hunt for deals if you check with a few dealers. But, for the fancy fiddles Gibson is bull**** to the extreme yet at the same time they often put out a few models a year at an awesome price point. H150's used to be a bit less than a Les Paul Classic IIRC? Like I stated, I don't know many people making double what they did a few years back but some of these domestic brands have gone through the roof on price! The last new guitar I bought was a '65 Strat Reissue, had a ding on it, was NOS, on clearance and the manager at GC let me walk out with it for $1250.That's the kind of stuff that keeps me walking into those places as it's nice knowing at a certain price point I can practically trade a guitar in and get my money back!
TalismanRich Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 I wonder if Gibson will be using the same strategy of doing big clearance pricing to move unsold inventory. With the new regime, they seem to be "right sizing" their line, which may mean lower number of sales at a higher price point (aka more profit). I'm sure Heritage is looking at the same thing. Plaza/Bandlab are not going to run the business to lose money. The revamping of the work area and building renovations are costing money, money that the old Heritage owners didn't have to recoup. We'll just have to see where the street prices settle out. I did notice that Heritage guitars were included in my recent "15% off" coupon from MF. That would put a new H137 at $1615 and a new H150 at $2125.
Gitfiddler Posted January 31, 2019 Author Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, TalismanRich said: I wonder if Gibson will be using the same strategy of doing big clearance pricing to move unsold inventory. With the new regime, they seem to be "right sizing" their line, which may mean lower number of sales at a higher price point (aka more profit). I'm sure Heritage is looking at the same thing. Plaza/Bandlab are not going to run the business to lose money. The revamping of the work area and building renovations are costing money, money that the old Heritage owners didn't have to recoup. We'll just have to see where the street prices settle out. I did notice that Heritage guitars were included in my recent "15% off" coupon from MF. That would put a new H137 at $1615 and a new H150 at $2125. Discounts such as this by a major retailer will help Heritage remain competitive against the mega-guitar brands that they compete against. Hopefully, at some point, Heritage will cease being a direct comparison to Gibson, and begin being compared to Collings, PRS and other builders known for their very high quality guitars. That is what helps keep customers coming back to them. The Heritage of Kalamazoo story (i.e. former Gibson builders) and legacy may be lost on many guitar buyers down the road. What will make or break Heritage is the consistent high quality, great guitars, after-sale customer service and value.
davesultra Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 IMO- When it comes to the guitar buying public, if you price an LP and H-150 right about the same, most will opt to buy the “genuine item” and not the “copy”. One of the biggest things that made Heritage special, was the fact that you could get a guitar equivalent or better than Gibson, for a fraction of the cost.
HANGAR18 Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 15 hours ago, TalismanRich said: I wonder if Gibson will be using the same strategy of doing big clearance pricing to move unsold inventory. With the new regime, they seem to be "right sizing" their line, which may mean lower number of sales at a higher price point (aka more profit). I'm sure Heritage is looking at the same thing. Plaza/Bandlab are not going to run the business to lose money. The revamping of the work area and building renovations are costing money, money that the old Heritage owners didn't have to recoup. We'll just have to see where the street prices settle out. I did notice that Heritage guitars were included in my recent "15% off" coupon from MF. That would put a new H137 at $1615 and a new H150 at $2125. At first glance, Plaza/Bandlab looks like Pizza/Bandaid.
CJTopes Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 5 hours ago, davesultra said: IMO- When it comes to the guitar buying public, if you price an LP and H-150 right about the same, most will opt to buy the “genuine item” and not the “copy”. One of the biggest things that made Heritage special, was the fact that you could get a guitar equivalent or better than Gibson, for a fraction of the cost. Thats my thought also. People like name recognition. As discussed many times here, people are obsessed with the name on the headstock. If you put an H-150 and a LP next to each other at the same price your average Joe guitar buyer is going to choose the Gibson. I think that was one of the things that made Heritage attractive. You could get a custom shop quality guitar for less money then Gibson's standard production guitars
FredZepp Posted January 31, 2019 Posted January 31, 2019 16 hours ago, TalismanRich said: I did notice that Heritage guitars were included in my recent "15% off" coupon from MF. That would put a new H137 at $1615 and a new H150 at $2125. Wow... a brand new H-150 for $2,125.. that seems very reasonable. A quick search showed Sweetwater with 2019 LP classic at $2,299 , traditional at $2,799 and standard at $3,399. just regular production les pauls. I'll take the Heritage at that. The Heritage company didn't really make much money as a business before. The owners went without checks and they still struggled . So something definitely had to change. We got used to them as extreme bargains, especially here.. where we found great deals through the efforts of several members here.
Einerbe Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 14 hours ago, CJTopes said: [...] People like name recognition. As discussed many times here, people are obsessed with the name on the headstock. If you put an H-150 and a LP next to each other at the same price your average Joe guitar buyer is going to choose the Gibson. I think that was one of the things that made Heritage attractive. You could get a custom shop quality guitar for less money then Gibson's standard production guitars Unfortunately, that's the case (in regards to name recognition & obsession). Totally agree to your statement! My first Heritage guitar came to me because I intended to pruchase a new "cherry-sunburst" LP but the price I was told was far beyond my budget (that was in 1994). So I bought a used H150. I have to admit, it wasn't a "love-deal" that day - because I really was obsessed and, yes also adicted to own a Gbns LP. Over the years, playing my H150 I more and more realized what a perfect "LP"-model I owned. I didn't know anything about Heritage and the history behind that address at Parsons Street and for a certain time kind of felt "I don't own a real LP". Today I am so proud and more than happy having made this decision to buy a Heritage H150. I also owned one Gbsn LP; a Studio model, Joe Bona.. Nice guitar, but it didn't have the kind of soul my H150 has - so I sold it. Okay, a Studio compared to a handbuilt H150 is like comparing apples to oranges, I know. I think we will see what the future will bring. Maybe some famous musician could help to better promote Heritage guitars in the sense of media attention - I always have been wondering, why J.B. never chosed any Heritage...(okay, today maybe a change seems impossible, but I am thinking about the time before 2009, when Gbsn built him his signature) https://youtu.be/-tHx97gmE90 For us, who own a Heritage guitar, a higher price point can help while selling any of our guitars. For those who want to buy, unfortunately, it will be opposite. Anyway, the essential thing for Heritage guitars is - as CJTopes mentions - somehow to overcome or at least balance the fact of a better recognition & obsession for Gbsn. Otherwise same/similar pricing like Gbns runs the risk to kill their business. Have a nice day
TalismanRich Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 The folks from G&L get the same story, why buy a Fender "look alike" when you can buy a "real" Fender? Prices of G&L guitars are generally on par with equivalent Fenders. There are a lot of G&Ls out there being sold. The Tributes are very close to the MIM series, and the USA models are similar to the standard On the other hand, there are dozens of Fender style makers out there and many are WAY better than a standard Fender. Suhr, Kirn, Melancon, Nash, Anderson, LSL, Whitfill. They are generally lower in price than a Fender Custom Shop. We often try to compare Heritage to Gibson USA or the Custom Shop. Heritage is still well under the custom shop Gibson. The hand built H150 is priced between the LP Classic and Traditional, both of which are CNC mass produced. On the other hand, they have nothing to compete with the Studio or SG standard series. The 137 is priced several hundred higher than either of those two. I think a lot of us are spoiled from buying new guitars for 1/2 to 2/3 the price of the equivalent Gibson USA guitars. That's not any more realistic than buying a new Anderson or Whitfill for 2/3 the price of a Standard Fender USA. That's not realistic if the company is going to survive. Heritage was one of the better kept bargains in the guitar world. That may be changing now. Hopefully people will judge them on their merit and not just as a cheap Gibson wannabe. 20 hours ago, CJTopes said: Thats my thought also. People like name recognition. As discussed many times here, people are obsessed with the name on the headstock. If you put an H-150 and a LP next to each other at the same price your average Joe guitar buyer is going to choose the Gibson. I think that was one of the things that made Heritage attractive. You could get a custom shop quality guitar for less money then Gibson's standard production guitars
Mikenov Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 If only for resale value it would not make sense to buy the Heritage for aprox. the same value as the equivelent Les Paul. It's just harder to sell if you need to.
davesultra Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 5 hours ago, TalismanRich said: I think a lot of us are spoiled from buying new guitars for 1/2 to 2/3 the price of the equivalent Gibson USA guitars. That's not any more realistic than buying a new Anderson or Whitfill for 2/3 the price of a Standard Fender USA. That's not realistic if the company is going to survive. Heritage was one of the better kept bargains in the guitar world. That may be changing now. Hopefully people will judge them on their merit and not just as a cheap Gibson wannabe. I'm not as optimistic regarding the future for Heritage. I just don't believe trying to go toe to toe with the big dog will bode well for "H". The bang for the buck factor was what kept them alive for all those years. Not just the whole 225 Parsons St. angle. But, good luck to them, as the market will be the ultimate decider.
deytookerjaabs Posted February 1, 2019 Posted February 1, 2019 I like value, and IMO value does not equal cheap, there's a difference. I would never pay $2,299 or whatever the original price of my '54 Fender Strat Reissue was because at that price there a good number of independent builders who can build something equally great in their garage with zero machining/assembly/bulkpurchase cost cutting advantage. But, '$1,750 on clearance with warranty is much better, yet I paid $1250 or so used...even better. I sometimes think if money was no thing...I'd still be like this. Heritage hasn't gone full tilt Bobby Booteek with their prices...yet. But they've definitely climbed a bit. If they get up to Collings level where a Les Paul Special cut out the CNC is 3k because their "superior tone wood discernenemmmmemment" **** that, for me. Not that I begrudge anyone buying them, but you've left the realm of value then and are just pricing on reputation, taking what the market can give and it definitely CAN give. Just, not this dude, lol. Yeah, in this day 2k or so for a flat solid body, 3-4k for carved top solid body, 4-5k for a nice flat top, 5-7k for a premium archtop is what independent small builders can charge when it's about getting a decent buck for them, no massive markup on name, and you can spec it as you like. But, mass building the same guitars with CNC on to specialists on the line making "live in mom's basement" kind of money with NO savings passed on? Yuck, although I can accept they'd all be superb (better be, at those prices) regardless. I'd been lusting after a new R8 for a while but when I see Jim Triggs selling a solid body New Yorker style build for 3.5k I just feel "eh" about buying the Gibson! We're talking a former Gibson guy hand tooling the beauties in his back room! Yet, at the same time, Gibson puts out a lot of models that are a great value, or at least cheaper than you can pay an independent guy to build it for you. So, they both are capable of value. To me, Heritage was more of an indie luthier collective of guys like Triggs with massive roots and the value was NEVER in doubt. The prices now, with the distribution/coupons I think are good and I hope they find ways to keep those prices versus finding ways to constantly raise prices.
Gitfiddler Posted February 2, 2019 Author Posted February 2, 2019 Is this where Heritage has a chance to compete against Gibson and all other builders...at $6,999?
Conneazoo Posted February 2, 2019 Posted February 2, 2019 20 minutes ago, Gitfiddler said: Is this where Heritage has a chance to compete against Gibson and all other builders...at $6,999? Maybe for the archtop/jazz peeps. Absolutely not for me. Truthfully, on the solidbody front, I'm back to PRS. I still search used Heritage and will keep the two that I own. But, I will NOT be buying a new one.
TalismanRich Posted February 2, 2019 Posted February 2, 2019 1 hour ago, deytookerjaabs said: I like value, and IMO value does not equal cheap, there's a difference. I would never pay $2,299 or whatever the original price of my '54 Fender Strat Reissue was because at that price there a good number of independent builders who can build something equally great in their garage with zero machining/assembly/bulkpurchase cost cutting advantage. But, '$1,750 on clearance with warranty is much better, yet I paid $1250 or so used...even better. I sometimes think if money was no thing...I'd still be like this. Is that one of the Vintage 54s that they put out for the 60th anniv where they made 1954 of them? I picked up a used one for $1100. Nice fun guitar. Its only the second Fender that I've ever owned. 22 minutes ago, Gitfiddler said: Is this where Heritage has a chance to compete against Gibson and all other builders...at $6,999? C'mon Git. That's a one-off show guitar. They have to charge more for it. I don't think they have to compete with Gibson anymore. If you search Gibson's website, you won't find a true archtop anywhere except for maybe the ES275 at MSRP of $5800 and street price of $4000. Its really a thinline so I don't know if you could count that as an archtop. They don't list a 175 anymore. Here are all the archtops they currently list: https://www.gibson.com/Guitars/Archtop When you look at Archtop guitars, you have the Ibanez, Eastman, Epiphone, Guild and Gretsch on the lower end (under $2000) before you start getting into the higher end stuff. Dale Unger has a nice American Elite for sale for $12000. Collins, Palen and Buscarino will set you back a pretty penny as well. FWIW, my local Heritage dealer hasn't gotten anything for quite a while. I'm not sure he's considered a dealer anymore. He's now stocking Eastmans which are actually pretty nice guitars. I played a couple of his archtops and playability was excellent and the sound was very good. For $1300 it was hard to beat, but it didn't prompt me to trade in my 525. I'm not a jazzer, so it's not a big temptation.
pro-fusion Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 Yes, you definitely have to compare Heritage to the Gibson custom shop guitars, not the Nashville production stuff. I suspect the average Heritage buyer is an entirely different consumer, and isn't really comparison shopping between the two. Even at the current prices, Heritage is still a high-end "working instrument". Gibson's custom shop prices render too many of them wall art for the affluent.
DetroitBlues Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 Here’s one model I don’t find competitive... https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/28402-heritage-h-137sc-review Gibson brought back the Special and it’s priced way below Heritage. I cannot consider that a custom shop model. Gibson has the binding on the neck and a pickguard. Both of which, this 137 should have at that price point.
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