17 degree peghead pitch

[rwinking]

When I first got into Heritage, their website talked about a 17 degree peghead pitch. What exactly is this and what are the benefits? I just looked at their site and they no longer tout this. Anyone know how come? Did they stop doing it or was it not that big of a deal?

thanks

rick

[TalismanRich]

17 degrees was the standard for Gibson guitars in the 50s and 60s.   Heritage is staying with the traditional design and feel, so they stuck with 17.   That gives the necessary angle across the nut to eliminate the need for any string guides, like you have on Fender guitars.  I don't know if its any kind of magic number.   Gibson has used 14 degrees as well as 17, and others use 15.  

The original design parameters were probably rooted in some long devised formula for lutes and violins!

[Gitfiddler]

Aren't Gibson headstock breaks often related to their neck angle/pitch?

[TalismanRich]

2 hours ago, Gitfiddler said:

Aren't Gibson headstock breaks often related to their neck angle/pitch?

Yes,  that is an issue due to the way the grain runs up the neck.   The steeper angle is more prone to breakage, which is why Gibson tried several solutions to minimize the breakage  including the lower angle and the volute at the nut.   Other folks use the scarf joint to eliminate the breakage.   That also lets you use more of the wood from a board.   When you're buying lots of wood, controlling waste can be an issue.   

[deytookerjaabs]

12 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

Yes,  that is an issue due to the way the grain runs up the neck.   The steeper angle is more prone to breakage, which is why Gibson tried several solutions to minimize the breakage  including the lower angle and the volute at the nut.   Other folks use the scarf joint to eliminate the breakage.   That also lets you use more of the wood from a board.   When you're buying lots of wood, controlling waste can be an issue.   

 

 

Eh, I'm gonna have a small quibblin' over this!!

 

I don't think the scarf joint helps much at all, modern Epiphones break like toothpicks all the time and they all tend to have the scarf. You can search ebay "for parts/repair" and you'll usually see a decent crop of headstock snapped Epi's. Thing is, when the guitar is so cheap many don't bother with the repair cost!

 

You're right about the angle increasing the string/tension pressure but then you couple that with the lack of wood right at that pivot..that's the problem. There's a big cutout for the truss nut cavity going up to the nut and add the hole for the rod making the neck blank really just have a tiny bit of wood in it's most sensitive spot, recipe for disaster. 

 

[DetroitBlues]

12 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

Yes,  that is an issue due to the way the grain runs up the neck.   The steeper angle is more prone to breakage, which is why Gibson tried several solutions to minimize the breakage  including the lower angle and the volute at the nut.   Other folks use the scarf joint to eliminate the breakage.   That also lets you use more of the wood from a board.   When you're buying lots of wood, controlling waste can be an issue.   

PRS S2's employ the scarf joint for their necks.  In all honesty, I think it works perfectly fine.  While you can see the scarf outline, honestly I think more companies should employ this, including Heritage as a way to reduce costs on lower models such as 137's and 575's.

[deytookerjaabs]

Let me add that if not for headstock breaks and the price decrease when selling a guitar with one....I'd probably not have been able to buy a couple of my favorite guitars! 

[TalismanRich]

Ok,   I probably should have said minimize rather than eliminate breakage.   Hit hard enough and at the proper angle, ANY type will break.   There are a lot of guitar manufacturers who use scarf joints sucessfully.   I think all Taylors use a 3 piece neck, with a scarf headstock and an 2 piece heal, just to conserve on wood usage.   A lot of people will say that a repaired headstock is stronger than original.  If that's true, then a properly glued scarf joint should be equally strong.

 

[pressure]

Anybody ever see a 5-piece neck with a headstock break?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[Dick Seacup]

5 hours ago, pressure said:

Anybody ever see a 5-piece neck with a headstock break?

Enquiring minds want to know.

I've seen a neck with a headstock break that was in five pieces.  Close enough?

[pressure]

Not close at all.

[Steiner]

A fixed 1 piece neck's headstock break will have a glue line across all those exposed fibers.  I'd wager, if one repaired a headstock and dropped the same guitar the same way, it wouldn't break at the glue line.  We've tested many a glue joint (most on purpose), none have failed along the glue joint. 

The weakest joint is end-grain to side-grain; e.g., scarf joint.

[deytookerjaabs]

6 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

Ok,   I probably should have said minimize rather than eliminate breakage.   Hit hard enough and at the proper angle, ANY type will break.   There are a lot of guitar manufacturers who use scarf joints sucessfully.   I think all Taylors use a 3 piece neck, with a scarf headstock and an 2 piece heal, just to conserve on wood usage.   A lot of people will say that a repaired headstock is stronger than original.  If that's true, then a properly glued scarf joint should be equally strong.

 

 

On a repaired headstock it's the actual glue line that's stronger but they break right around that glue line all the time, I would know as my SJ100 & '67 'bird both have 2 repairs under their belt. Although, ironic that I mentioned it, the SJ100 did break AT the glue line, it looks like only 1 repair was done, maybe they used weak or not enough glue. But, it is a law of "bigger they are harder they fall" thus you see more breaks with hefty guitars. Speaking of lack of wood...here's another common repair in the Gibson world: SG heel repairs. Lots of vintage SG's (and some new) break at the heel when they topple over as there's not a lot of body wood around the neck joint. 

Point being, the scarf & glue line doesn't fix the lack of wood issue.

[bolero]

1 hour ago, Steiner said:

A fixed 1 piece neck's headstock break will have a glue line across all those exposed fibers.  I'd wager, if one repaired a headstock and dropped the same guitar the same way, it wouldn't break at the glue line.  We've tested many a glue joint (most on purpose), none have failed along the glue joint. 

The weakest joint is end-grain to side-grain; e.g., scarf joint.

that is interesting, never thought of it, thx!

[TalismanRich]

1 hour ago, deytookerjaabs said:

. Speaking of lack of wood...here's another common repair in the Gibson world: SG heel repairs. Lots of vintage SG's (and some new) break at the heel when they topple over as there's not a lot of body wood around the neck joint. 

Point being, the scarf & glue line doesn't fix the lack of wood issue.

You should have heard some of the stories that Jim Deurloo was telling about SGs that came off the like and had the necks pop as they were being strung!    

... and,  yes,  the presence of the truss rod cutaway just weakens and already weak point further.

[deytookerjaabs]

49 minutes ago, TalismanRich said:

You should have heard some of the stories that Jim Deurloo was telling about SGs that came off the like and had the necks pop as they were being strung!    

... and,  yes,  the presence of the truss rod cutaway just weakens and already weak point further.

 

I can just imagine being the final setup guy tuning the strings when everyone hears the pop.

 

"I didn't do nothin!!!!!! "

"Bob, you're fired, you can't keep breaking the guitars"

"But....but..." 

 

Really, when you think about it, the fact that it's a fraction of the guitars put out there that do break is a testament to the strength of mahogany. 

 

It'd be interesting to measure in 3D a half inch of the headstock pivot area it in right around the nut. Say, a thinner neck with .80 C cut right there, take the, uh, radius of the curve, the straight line at the fretboard joint, subtract the cavity cutout & truss nut cutout, I dunno what it'd add up to but it's gotta be pretty small. Good thing we don't build bridges like that! I'm not He-Man but I feel like I could snap the suckers with my bare hand. 

[deytookerjaabs]

Speaking of weaknesses on guitars, here's two funny/sad stories:

 

#1: My first "jazz box" was a 1962 ES125t I got for $400 in the 90's. On the road trip down to school when I arrived I took it out the case and headstock was broken, never heard it snap or anything. 

#2: More recently I had '58 ES125t. One day I tried to put flat 13 Chromes on it, I'm tuning up and I straight up see the heel coming up from the body. I put the .11 pyramids back on..no issue. I sell the guitar at a pretty good price but tell the guy what the issue is with the neck heel. 

A week later, the guitar is at "Carter Vintage" guitars for almost double the price of what I sold it to the hustler for (2100 IIRC). Oof, vintage archtops, watch out, you pay a premium and if you're not lucky you could be paying a premium in repairs a day later! 

[zguitar71]

Both Collings and PRS have a shallower pitch at 10 degrees and like Heritage have he strings run straighter toward the tuning key from the nut. Both companies use the shallower angle to help prevent the string from sticking in the nut which is prone to happening in the 17 degree head. The straight pull is also meant to help this situation. PRS claims that the 10 degree angle is the perfect marriage of strength, string tension over the nit, and lack of angle to prevent sticking. My experience is the Collings and PRS have it right with the 10 degrees and the Heritage is good with the straighter pull but the angle still causes sticking but not nearly as bad as my experience with Gibson. Rwinking, the PRS you got from me never had a tuning issue at all, I was amazed at the stability of the neck and how well it functioned. PRS can make a killer guitar. 

[bolero]

my favourite H150 has a busted/repaired headstock

I also like the fact that I don't have to worry about it

I call it "the bastard"

:D

[rwinking]

I have an H-140 that I love and it had the headstock broken at some point. What a great guitar! I appreciate all of this info on the 17 degree thing.

[JAM]

Since the 'break' to 17° comes before the Nut, I'm surprised some company didn't supply some decorative 'angle stock' on the side(s) to carry the load. It could be made so as to not interfere with resonance.

 

cheers!