Should Heritage worry about the new Gibson prices?

[zguitar71]

Specifically, does Heritage need to worry about the 50s and 60s LP standards being $2499? The specs are about the same as an H150. So far some of the weights listed on CME are over 10lbs for the LPs, heavy. The H150s on their site are under 10lbs and one used solid 150 under 9 (2003, probably a nice whip).   I think it will be hard for Heritage to pull peeps away from G when the prices are identical. 

[Vanschoyck]

Maybe.  The flip side is that by pricing yourself cheaper you signal that you don't think your product is as good.  As always it will be fun to see how it works.

[yoslate]

1 hour ago, zguitar71 said:

  I think it will be hard for Heritage to pull peeps away from G when the prices are identical. 

Nothing new there, over time, in terms of the full Gibson line and certainly not just the Custom Shop....  Brand identity's always been an issue for Heritage, relative to the "G" word headstock.

[Polo]

Hell yeah they should worry!!!

Even as a Heritage fanboy I can honestly say that the only new Heritage guitar I'd consider buying at this point would be one of those Harmony reboots...only it'd need to say Heritage on the headstock instead of Harmony. 

Seriously though...Has anyone ever asked anyone if they would do a custom Harmony with a Heritage logo???  

 

[deytookerjaabs]

For me, the regular solid/ES-ish guitar lineup for Heritage was a cut above at a price below traditionally. Right now the Gibson ES guitars I've played which you can get brand new for 2k to 2.5k, basically the standard/traditional or satin ES335's are really nice guitars. I spent some time with a P90 one that was just smokin for 2K, great guitar. It's likely the same can be said of the new Les Paul Standards once they hit the shelves. It's to the point where you'll about have to prefer the Heritage specifications/sound along with the company backstory etc alone. 

The part where Heritage REALLY always kicked G's azz was the Jazz boxes (and custom builds in general) and while they still offer a couple models they've about shelved the beauty of custom ordering those given the model decreases along with custom build price increases. 

I really regret never plunking down on spec'ing out a custom archtop years back when I worked for a dealer & was seriously considering it when the prices fit the income. I remember fawning over the Henry Johnson model forever. But, ya always think everything will always be available, lol. Meanwhile I was scoring H-150's, 535's for under a grand on the used market. Oh the times have changed in short. 

I went to one of the over-charging guitourist shops here in Nashville the other day and they're asking $2,500 for a regular used 90's 535! WTF??? I guess they'll convince some tourist that's "market value." 

Meanwhile for what they were asking for a used 535 after taxes I scored a Freddie online:

 

If I was made of money, given the great deals out there today, I'd be like a trophy wife shopping sunset blvd. 

 

 

 

 

[Gitfiddler]

The short answer to the OP's question is yes...and no.  Both companies are fighting for customers who are seeking very similar products.  Heritage has a LONG way to go to catch up to Gibson's long-established market 'ownership'.  That was a given back in 1984 and remains the case in 2019.  Even with the new owners at Heritage and a huge infusion of Bandlab cash, Heritage remains pretty much a little known guitar maker on the world stage.  I still find myself telling their story to folks admiring my Heritage guitars.  Yes, they've gotten some good...no GREAT press recently, but market share remains tiny for our favorite guitar maker.

Gibson and Heritage are both going through a necessary and calculated brand reboot.  They both decided to slim down their model lines and dramatically increase pricing for their respective Custom Shop models.  Have you checked prices of Gibson archtops lately?  They're in nosebleed territory.  Even a laminate bodied Tal Farlow or ES175, prices are ridiculous.  And don't even ask for the price of a new L5 Wes Mo.  And wait times are between six months to a year to build one.  Yes, Heritage archtops and other custom models are priced high, but nowhere near Gibson's.  The modestly priced Heritage custom builds are a thing of the past.  If you have one...or two, enjoy them.  Otherwise, keep scouring the used market for a unique Heritage custom model.  And don't delay.  They too are going up in price. 

My point is to not worry so much about the pricing and models of each company.  Each is doing their own thing and trying to make a few dollars along the way.  Just the same as Collings, PRS, G&L, Reverend, etc., etc. are doing.  Each company is trying to build the best product they can, pricing them to attract new and former customers, and trying to keep the factory lights on.

The latest creations from Heritage appear to have addressed some of the former QC 'issues' that the original owners let slide by.  Word is that Heritage is building some of the best guitars they've built across the board, even though there are fewer choices.  But that is a good thing.  And the discerning guitar buying public will get it...and hopefully come to Heritage for their next electric guitar.  Hopefully they'll walk away knowing that they got a great value, no matter the price compared to other builders...including Gibson.

 

[rockabilly69]

1 hour ago, Gitfiddler said:

The short answer to the OP's question is yes...and no.  Both companies are fighting for customers who are seeking very similar products.  Heritage has a LONG way to go to catch up to Gibson's long-established market 'ownership'.  That was a given back in 1984 and remains the case in 2019.  Even with the new owners at Heritage and a huge infusion of Bandlab cash, Heritage remains pretty much a little known guitar maker on the world stage.  I still find myself telling their story to folks admiring my Heritage guitars.  Yes, they've gotten some good...no GREAT press recently, but market share remains tiny for our favorite guitar maker.

Gibson and Heritage are both going through a necessary and calculated brand reboot.  They both decided to slim down their model lines and dramatically increase pricing for their respective Custom Shop models.  Have you checked prices of Gibson archtops lately?  They're in nosebleed territory.  Even a laminate bodied Tal Farlow or ES175, prices are ridiculous.  And don't even ask for the price of a new L5 Wes Mo.  And wait times are between six months to a year to build one.  Yes, Heritage archtops and other custom models are priced high, but nowhere near Gibson's.  The modestly priced Heritage custom builds are a thing of the past.  If you have one...or two, enjoy them.  Otherwise, keep scouring the used market for a unique Heritage custom model.  And don't delay.  They too are going up in price. 

My point is to not worry so much about the pricing and models of each company.  Each is doing their own thing and trying to make a few dollars along the way.  Just the same as Collings, PRS, G&L, Reverend, etc., etc. are doing.  Each company is trying to build the best product they can, pricing them to attract new and former customers, and trying to keep the factory lights on.

The latest creations from Heritage appear to have addressed some of the former QC 'issues' that the original owners let slide by.  Word is that Heritage is building some of the best guitars they've built across the board, even though there are fewer choices.  But that is a good thing.  And the discerning guitar buying public will get it...and hopefully come to Heritage for their next electric guitar.  Hopefully they'll walk away knowing that they got a great value, no matter the price compared to other builders...including Gibson.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you say here! 

[deytookerjaabs]

 

Lately Gibson archtops have been expensive? No. They've been out of commission for decades on their solid carved top prices and are barely a part of that market any more which appears to be how they want it. That's not a recent development. It's far more economical to build popular guitars initially designed to be produce en masse at huge price increases as long as the market bears the price. And many applaud when a ho-hum LP Special guitar is 3K because someone fooled them to believe in there's a $1,000 hunk of mojo wood & craftsmanship hiding inside. Heritage is inching down that path. 

 

And, the myth of a need for price increases? Look at the facts. There's a reason bread & butter guitars from Fender & Gibson haven't even kept up with inflation, same goes with many other companies...it's because the overhead is lower than ever. The old American Standard 10 years later became the American Special at a lower price point after inflation, the old Les Paul studio got a satin treatment with bulk up and became the Tribute at a lower price point after inflation. The SG's, Firebirds, and many other models have all seen prices in recent years less than they were in the 90's...after inflation. The same can be said if you look closely at G&L in the past or at the parts builders like Musikraft/Warmoth etc and more. WHY???  Because, productivity & efficiency is off the charts thanks to time management of labor, labor adjusted for inflation is cheap, wood/steel/materials have paced behind inflation, parts from strings to pots to knobs are behind inflation, certain tax structures, accounting predictability of machine governed operations like rough mill (CNC's can't sue for disability) and a whole host of other reasons why regular USA guitars & parts can be made at low prices these days. The reason "custom shop" guitars have doubled in price the past 10 years is because they realized that market segment can & will pay the premium on guitars that aren't by any means custom in their production process. Meanwhile, the floor model market segment can't bear price increase....thus you still have tons of American made guitars between $800-$1500 that in the 90's were $700-$1200, and no, they aren't "loss leaders" otherwise anyone not named Fender/Gibson would be out of business. 

 

There's zero reason "crafsman" can't build good old custom ordered USA (and now Europe) carved top guitars between 4-7k in 2019 other than bean counting the margins, consumer interest, lack of knowledge, or just plain laziness. This goes even more so for a place like Heritage where there are specialists who are more efficient at their job than independent small shop builders who might know how to tape binding..but they don't do it 10 times a day so they have to take their time. Yet, those guys without any advantage can crank out the boxes at real world prices. 

 

 

Anyways, now that's all about how well you can build a guitar designed to be mass produced at the highest price possible then brag about "fit and finish" as if you can't get a $300 korean guitar with a perfect "fit and finish" there's no sense for me to argue....it's like throwing play-doh at the wall expecting it to bounce back, lol. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DetroitBlues]

17 hours ago, zguitar71 said:

Specifically, does Heritage need to worry about the 50s and 60s LP standards being $2499? The specs are about the same as an H150. So far some of the weights listed on CME are over 10lbs for the LPs, heavy. The H150s on their site are under 10lbs and one used solid 150 under 9 (2003, probably a nice whip).   I think it will be hard for Heritage to pull peeps away from G when the prices are identical. 

The Gibson Traditional line was at that price range, the new "Standard" line is just the Traditional line being a bit more traditional.

 

[deytookerjaabs]

5 hours ago, DetroitBlues said:

The Gibson Traditional line was at that price range, the new "Standard" line is just the Traditional line being a bit more traditional.

 

 

Bingo. I'd figured they'd give the market what it wants but the video don't lie, it's more marketing than substance. 

[High Flying Bird]

I could give a care less about the guitar market.  I have three really nice guitars and do not need another. 

[ElNumero]

Frankly, I don't see it as apples to apples. Other than the 150 looks similar to the LP, (and the 150's headstock is prettier), Heritage is a small maker of high quality guitars and G is a mass producer of quality guitars. Correct me if I am wrong, but Heritage guitars employ a lot more hands on craftsmanship than their G counterparts, thus their prices should definitely NOT be lower than the price of a G brand LP. Is Heritage now carving their guitar bodies using CNC machinery? 

And lest we forget, Les Paul models did not catch on with the guitar buying public for years. Their sales were declining rapidly, even through the 58-60 burst years. Which is precisely the reason why they scrapped the LP body style and in 1961 built the SG Les Paul, hoping to turn things around. 

[deytookerjaabs]

Beyond roughing the wood blanks Heritage doesn't do much of anything different than Gibson. The rest of processes you'd have to build one hell of machine to do. Swap out roughing the bodies by CNC, clamps versus pneumatic presses, and the rest of the build process is pretty much the same circa 2019. Big difference is Heritage takes their time to get it right on the assembly line, Gibson fills quota so you have to be fast/efficient and at times we've all seen some head scratchers sent out the door. The cost per unit is likely cheaper at Gibson but aside from rough mill the people perform basically the same jobs. 

 

 

Still, let's break down the 50's prices for fun. From my reading on Kalamazoo, (accounting for inflation) a guy starting on the floor in the late 50's got 15/hr and after 6 months if he was meeting his numbers he got on the roster where very quickly he'd get up 20/25 hr plus bonus's, dental, health, and a pension with extensive internal mobility. The quotas back then were nothing compared to Gibson circa 2019 and for that matter possibly Heritage. Marv Lamb, to get the job at Gibson, IIRC needed to fine sand/fill 5 white wood flat tops per day at his station, by hand. So man hours at the real factory were certainly higher along with labor on the wood. 

Parts in the 50's? Way more man hours. Tailpieces were machined in house, strings machined in house, molds for patented objects created on company dollars, strings wound in house, pickup assembly and some machining in house, binding sheets cut/glued in house etc. Today? After inflation normally sourced parts are cheaper then ever and require zero additional labor/man hours since the aftermarket parts business is huge these days. Hell, even materials have been switched to uber cheap stuff like ABS molding. 

Design? Give me a break here,  in the 50's the standard was employing an entire team of Engineers and foreman to constantly design the latest product, implement it's construction from scratch, then employ that design....new pickups, new bridges, new tuners, etc. That's a whole additional department of salaried dollars!

Raw materials? All that I know of beyond endangered woods have paced behind inflation, that includes final prices on said parts. 

So...when we make the "it's the same price adjusted for inflation" argument comparing Heritage or Gibson to 50's Gibson the numbers don't add up on the production end...like not even close. The only reasons I can think that they aren't cheaper today? I dunno, but IIRC Ted McCarty pulled the equivalent of 250K after inflation and felt he lived very well. Word is the new Gibson exec pulls 3+Mil as he's likely about 12+ times more talented than Ted was, same goes for a whole host of other upper management salaries well outpacing inflation. Another possible factor, actual facility/land cost has probably gone up higher than inflation but I'm not familiar with the factory housing market. 

I don't have any access to open books but from a distance I'm baffled. No design implementation, cheaper labor, cheaper parts, cheaper materials, faster execution with higher quotas, more machine jobs, etc....

 

Why aren't they cheaper? Eh, and I don't reserve that "eh" just for Heritage & Gibson  

 

[tsp17]

On 5/1/2019 at 9:28 PM, Gitfiddler said:

The latest creations from Heritage appear to have addressed some of the former QC 'issues' that the original owners let slide by.  Word is that Heritage is building some of the best guitars they've built across the board, even though there are fewer choices.  But that is a good thing.  And the discerning guitar buying public will get it...and hopefully come to Heritage for their next electric guitar.  Hopefully they'll walk away knowing that they got a great value, no matter the price compared to other builders...including Gibson.

 

Do fewer things, but do them really well.  Sounds like a solid business model.  Plus: those of us with discontinued models will cherish them (said with pleasure knowing a beautiful 1998 H550 is two days from my door).

[zguitar71]

I’ve read all that everyone has to say so far. I learned some things along the way. What I would like to see is Heritage maintain the same price structure but make a single piece body standard and keep the weight 9.5lbs or less without weight relief. Of course the really light stuff is going to be a custom order and over the top figure, etc. They should also give the choice of a slim or fat neck as well. That would be nice imo. Would the average Gibby buyer even know these differences? Probably not but it could have me buying one. 

[HANGAR18]

Here is a recent observation which may be relevant. It seems to me that the used Gibson Dealers are competing against the NEW Gibson prices.

A small Ma'&Pa guitar shop has a used and previously well loved Gibson Korina Flying V which is priced at the current "reasonable" marked price for one of those. I love light weight Flying V's, but I think they are going to have a hard time selling a 20+ year old used Gibson guitar when you can buy a brand new Flying V for nearly half of what they are asking for the used Flying V. Me personally, I didn't buy it because I've already got a Mahogany body Flying V I bought brand new which is just as light as the used Korina one in the store, and I'm under the impression that if I wanted another light one, I could just shop around all the Gibson dealers and find another light weight one just like it (for < or = the price of a used one).

 

[TalismanRich]

Hangar,   part of that might be that the pricing on a lot of used guitars has gone from fair to questionable to completely insane.  It started with the '59 LP Burst craziness, and now everyone who has an old guitar thinks its worth 3-5 times what it was worth 10 years ago because it's old and has "mojo".    Sorry, but those Norlin LPs from the late 70s with 3 piece bodies that sold new for $600 are NOT all going to be worth $3-4000.    

It used to be that when you bought a guitar it went down in value.   Now people think that after 5 years its worth 25% more than they paid for it.       Sorry, but it's not reality.

The "collectable" mentality can be expensive.   Anyone who has a stash of Beanie Babies, Trolls, or Cabbage Patch dolls will tell you that.

[Polo]

3 hours ago, HANGAR18 said:

 

 

 

Nice touch sly guy......but wouldn't a - 666  have been more appropriate?

Either way, nice touch!

[HANGAR18]

6 minutes ago, Polo said:

 

Nice touch sly guy......but wouldn't a - 666  have been more appropriate?

Either way, nice touch!

lol...

 

[High Flying Bird]

On 5/8/2019 at 4:33 PM, tsp17 said:

Do fewer things, but do them really well.  Sounds like a solid business model.  Plus: those of us with discontinued models will cherish them (said with pleasure knowing a beautiful 1998 H550 is two days from my door).

One of my buddies owns a 2001 550.  It is a fine guitar. 

[kennyv4]

I stopped by Sam Ash this morning.  They had a brand new last year Gibson ES335 on closeout for 2K.  That's the big price advantage a larger guitar maker has over smaller companies like Heritage.  

[pro-fusion]

Heritage is closer to Gibson Custom Shop quality than the production stuff, in my experience. Somewhere in between, really. However, I think they're going to have to get back to offering custom or semi-custom ordering if they want to create a sustainable niche.

The new Gibson leadership really seems to have a handle on what to do with the product. The features are what a Gibson buyer wants, and the prices don't make you faint. Can't say I've picked up one of the 2019s to check it out, though. If they can crank out good fretwork on everything, they'll go nuts.

[Metalheart]

I don't think it would matter over here in Australia. Standards are roughly $4799 compared to the H-150 at $3300, that is a massive difference in price. In reality, the H-150 is a great guitar for a great price that is much more appealing and reasonable than Gibson prices down here.

[FredZepp]

If Heritage was interested in a race to the bottom , pricewise, they would abandon the time consuming techniques that they've always used.  The hand rolled neck, the hand shaped arch to a solidbody and many others done by hand could be more automated.  But they have yet to show an interest in changing to a cost effective model and many here agree with that decision. We've seen several companies have success in building high quality versions of Gibson and Fender guitars, because a true race to the bottom ends with Asian made instruments being lower cost than US made.    It comes to appealing to one of the many changing markets for quality instruments, and they look to be on the right track. 

 We've known from the start that Heritage Guitars of Kalamazoo are not the same as production Gibsons or any other large production brand.  They offer something unique and .. inspired. 

[mark555]

On 5/3/2019 at 8:12 AM, High Flying Bird said:

I could give a care less about the guitar market.  I have three really nice guitars and do not need another. 

what a great viewpoint!