Low E goes bad flat - out of tune - when hitting big power chords.

[jamison162]

I've done a fairly decent amount of tech work in the past but thought I would post this here to see what you guys think.

 

When I hit an open low E power chord, the E string goes way of of tune, sounds flat to me.  If I recall, any other fretted power chord sounds ok. F, G, A, etc. on the low strings.

 

So I guess I just answered my own question, perhaps.  The nut is causing this??  Or is it tuners, unstable bridge?  The thing is the nut is cut pretty good, the slot isn't deep at all nor wide.  String is sitting atop rather nice and steady/firm looking.

 

I've had guitars in the past (Epi) that had this problem due to a deep and extra wide nut slot so that the string would flop around loosly in the nut slot causing it to go in and out of tune.

 

Anyways, what should I look for in this situation - other than the nut.  It really drives me crazy!

[yoslate]

Sorry for stating the obvious, but I do seem to be first....  Is the string being wound onto the tuning machine in a fashion that locks it (you know, "working" end under, then over the "standing" end of the string, as it's wound, thus clamping it)?  How's the ball end seating itself?  Do you stretch the string well when putting new ones on?  What kind of shape is the tuning machine gear in (Have you slapped in another machine to see if that's it, process of elimination?  Keep us posted....

[jamison162]

The guitar is new.  Haven't done any trouble shooting yet.  Had rehersal last night and it was bothering the crap out of me.  I honestly do not think it is a nut issue.

I truely believe it's going to be a tuner, string wrap issue possibly due to me loosening and tightening the strings several times to install various pickups.

 

It could be just a bad string; the core?

 

I also have some brand new 18:1 locking Grovers on hand that I've had for a while now.  Thought about replacing the stock 14:1 Grovers with these.  They area direct fit and I already have them so why not.  Anyone using these?

[Mikenov]

I have had the same headache with my H150 but with the G and B strings. Took it to my tech more than once and he focused his efforts on the nut but it didn't fix it. And I did have locking grovers which had help but not resolved my issues. I am almost 100% sure it is a nut issue at this point. Its a big disapointment b/c I have a $200 artcore that never loses tune. Never. of course if doesn't sound nearly as good but on a $1300 there is just no reason I should have this issue. It is getting almost to the point where I can't gig with this guitar b/c I have tune about every other song. Anyway, just wanted to share my struggles b/c it seems like your story is all to familiar and after the locking tuners and new drill holes in the headstock, I am still having the same sort of issues. I think its time to find a new guitar tech and get a new nut installed. and advice on what kind of nut is best and why is appreciated.

[jamison162]

If it is a nut issue, usually it's pretty obvious.  If your gonna go find a new tech, get a good one and have him cut a bone nut.

I've used the Graphtech Trm nuts and Tusq on quick jobs as well and they have worked out just fine.

 

I dunno what's causing this but I will put on the locking tuners, probably do a Tusq nut myself (the stock one pings onthe high strings anyway), and TonePros Locking bridge and tailpiece.  You can't get any better than that really.

[Kazwell]

  Also, aside from everything else, won't hurt to try putting DR nickel wound strings on that puppy ( if you don't already) they are the best.

[yoslate]

I'd like to second Kazwell's DR endorsement!  Bought a case of my usual Boomers just a week ago; guy at the music store with whom I regularly deal threw a set of DR's at me, "If ya like 'em, pay me for 'em later...."  Strung up the Tele with the DR's that night.  Took the case of Boomers, which I've played forever, back the next day, ordered a case of the DR's....

                                                                                                                                                ;D

[rooster]

Not to re-state to often, but sounds like a nut problem to me. Cutting a nut is a very painstaking process to do correctly, it's taken me many years to learn how to do it right. If you live in the Phoenix area, I could fix it up for you.

 

rooster.

[Cryoman]

Absolutely agree its the nut. My bone nut carving experience is different... I think it is utterly simple to do. No rocket science or engineering degree required.

 

In my spare time, I've cut 7 brand new bone nuts from camel bone I bought on ebay.  Installed them on a Gibson SG Standard (1st nut of 7, photos below) Gibson 2005 Les Paul, Gibson '57 VOS Gold Top, Heritage 535, Heritage 137, Gibson CS-339, Gibson ES-339.  Had never installed a bone nut ever until 4 weeks ago.  All 7 are absolutely beautiful and play better than any of the original plastic or Corian nuts that Gibson and Heritage uses and have lower action at the 1st fret.  No "chink" ever when tuning (all of the Heritage & Gibson's "chinked" - means the string cuts were done wrong/poorly.)

 

It was absolutely simple after reading Erlewine's tip sheet from Stewmac.com.  1st one (below) took me 2 hours 'cuz I "snuck up on it" and didn't want to be over-agressive, and the 7th (minus removing the old nut from the guitar) took me 19 minutes from raw blank to cut, finished, polished and installed (minus hide glue) nut.

 

Maybe it's the cool nut files I bought from Warmoth....??

 

I'll help anyone interested in learning to do this. Anyone who needs a bone nut on a Heritage in Albuquerque come by and I'll install one for you for free.

 

Cheers, Cryoman

 

1st photo: rough shaped nut, original cheap plastic Gibson nut, camel bone 'blank'

 

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd302/cryoman_bucket/Nuts007.jpg[/img]

 

2nd photo: finished nut - Nice match to binding and Grover vintage tuners

 

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd302/cryoman_bucket/Nuts009.jpg[/img]

[Thundersteel]

Outstanding! That camel bone nut looks perfect!

 

I'd like to try doing that, but I'm afraid I'd make things worse!

[Paul P]

I agree, the nut looks very nice Cryoman.  I've since ordered some blanks from Hong Kong myself (would never have

done that without a recommendation !) and hope I can produce similar results.  Having done two nuts so far with

make-shift tools like feeler gauges wrapped in wet-n-dry paper I'm looking forward to receiving my nut files from Warmoth

which I've just ordered.  I've wanted some for a while but found the prices at Stew-mac out of reach.  Thanks for

that lead as well Cryoman.

 

Thundersteel, you write "I'd like to try doing that, but I'm afraid I'd make things worse!"  I think the attempt would

be worth it.  Of course your first attempt may not be too elegant but you'll then be half way to making a nice one.

Things get better fast and you'll soon reach a point that you'll look forward to making another perfect nut.

I've had a couple of "oh s**t !" moments while working nuts, like busting out the little bit of rosewood past the

nut on a new Fender Strat trying to remove the nut, or going almost too low in a slot, but the results are well

worth it.  Once you have the process down pat you can easily achieve precision that you'd have a hard time finding elsewhere.

 

Paul P

[yoslate]

Cryoman:

 

Nice work!  The photos are well done, especially the first, which so clearly shows the diff among good nut, not-so-good nut, and blank.  The second shows a really nice taper back towards the headstock, the way it should be.  For those not dialed in to it, it's amazing the difference a well done nut, in good material, makes in both sound and playability.  One of the best upgrades a guitar can have.  Kudos for wading in yourself!  Very satisfying, no?

 

slate

[Cryoman]

Gents,

 

Thanks for kind remarks.  It is VERY satisfying, indeed.  And the difference in the guitar is more remarkable than I would have predicted.  Anyone can do this if they just as I put it, "sneak up on it."  My method is to use the old nut as the template for the replacement.  I label one side of the blank "bridge" and then place both the blank and the old nut together (but both facing the same way - i.e. both the "bridge" sides facing the same direction, not facing each other).

 

I then hold both together and register the bottoms on a flat piece of glass and register one end of the blank to one or the other ends of the old nut.  I then use either a 5mm or 7mm mechanical pencil and trace the old nut on the blank.  So, now one side of the blank is labeled "bridge" and one side has the tracing of the old nut.

 

I then put the blank in the vice and hacksaw it to just outside the tracing.  The tracing is already 5mm or 7mm thick so as long as you don't saw away your tracing you are still good.  I then file in the vice (square to all surfaces) to mid-way on the tracing line.

 

Next I register the old to the new again, both "bridge" faces in the same direction, register them again on a glass flat and the install both into the vice.  You can NOT slip on the your registration here... pinch them tight, tap the bottoms on the glass, then bring them to the vice and clamp until you know the bottoms are co-planar.

 

With an Exacto or Excell "razor" saw, I then use the old nut to position my saw blade (you can either cut into the old nut or not... you'll likely do better if you literally let the old groove serve as the cut template for the new one.)  If you don't want to hurt the old nut (I throw them away...) you can eyeball the registration to make your initial cuts without touching the old nut with the saw.

 

With these guide cuts, I then use .13, .13, .17, .26, .36, .50 saw nut files for a "light' set of electric strings (.10 - .46).  I then nut file with a 15 degree back angel down to the bottom of my 5mm (or 7mm) tracing.  You are 90% of the way done.  (Note: the .17 for a .17 string proves to be problematic so far each time, I've had to open this one up a little with a folder over piece of 600 or 1200 sandpaper...)

 

I now file the profile on the back (away from bridge) of the nut to get a nice rounded back emulating the original nut.  I then start tweeking the ends of the nut to fit with several checks on the guitar.  Then I string her up and make groove depth adjustments string by string.   The guitar has to be fully tuned up to get the right tension and relief on the neck (also in the playing position as Erlewine notes!)

 

When you get all your string depths the way you want them, you then file the round back again so that the heaviest 3 strings sit 1/2 diameter above the nut and the lightest 3 no deeper than their diameter.  You cannot touch the front edge (bridge) because you've set final string height but you can & should put a nice back angle toward the headstock.  This will usually eliminate any buzzing of that string from running too "long" in the nut groove.

 

I polish up the exit end of each string slot (toward the machine heads) with some 1200 sandpaper. I then shape, polish and buff using 320, 600, 1200 sandpapers and a spin on the small buffing wheel in my grinder with a little jewelers rouge.

 

I play it for a day or two to make sure I love it. Then it's 3 or 4 drops of Liquid Hide Glue divided between bottom and "bridge" edge of the nut. A good wipe with pretty damp piece of terry cloth or old towel, (especially at the nut to fretboard interface), string it up to tension, adjust the side to side of the nut perfectly, wiipe down the ends of the nuts for glue. 

 

Play. 

 

Cheers, Cryoman

 

PS.  The really good news is that if you totally screw it up you are only out $2.50 AND the next one with be absolutley perfect!!  ;D

[Cryoman]

Oops. Double posted

[Mikenov]

Don't know if this makes sense, but I took my guitar to a good tech yesterday. My H150 which was going out of tune bad on the G and B strings. He looked at the neck and said it was a little twisted. the action was fine but the whole kneck was bowed and when he straightened it out now the low E side of the kneck is still a little bowed around the 7th fret. His diagnosis was that its a real heavy guitar, it probably hung from a wall for a LONG time, was probably uneven or the hanger was angled funny and it twisted the kneck. He has seen this allot from Guitar Center guitars. Does this sound right? His recomendation was try hanging it backwards for a month and see if gravity straightens it out.  BTW, now my other strings hold tune but the low E goes flat quick.

[Cryoman]

I don't think it sounds right.  Think of a guitar as a beam (neck wood & truss rod) with 6 strings in tension trying to pull that beam into a bow.  If the 8 to 11 lb mass of the guitar's body is pulling both the strings and the neck (ie the total added tension due to weight of the guitar is distributed equally into tension on the neck and tension on the strings (which it is), the net effect is zero.  In other words the weight of the guitar is "pulling" on the 6 strings (which bends the neck) but the same amount of weight (force) is also "pulling" (equal force) the neck out straight against that bow. 

 

More likely is that necks and fretboards just sometimes twist over time, it's the nature of wood.  I'd de-string it and use "help" (see Dan Erlewines excellent way of using two small blocks and a striaight I-beam type level and clamp) to getting the neck into a straight positon without help of the truss rod.  Then I'd clean and lube up the truss rod nut and apply a minimal torgue but then add torque as necessary to keep the neck flat as you string and tension the strings.

 

Cheers, Cryoman.

[Mikenov]

Thanks for the advice Cryoman. I'm a little pissed to have to deal with this on a fairly new guitar. I wish I knew more about working on them. The thing plays nice but just isn't gig worthy as is due to the tuning issues. Kinda makes me sick to my stomach.

Anyway,

thanks

[111518]

Hi Guys:

I was going to wait and post when I had time to include some pictures of my heritage guitars and introduce myself, but this thread reminds me of a problem I once had with a strat, so I thought I'd share my experience.  Conventional wisdom says this diagnosis shouldn't apply to humbuckers, but the test only takes a few seconds and a screwdriver, so it might be worth a try, and a couple of things in the post make me wonder if conventional wisdom might be wrong in these cases. 

 

Crank the pickups down away from the strings, tune up, play the song/parts that seem to be causing the tuning issue, and see what happens. 

 

What I discovered, after changing a pickup on my strat and not being able to get a guitar that once played in tune to consistently sound in tune, was that the stronger magnetic field of the pickup I installed (a duncan quarter pounder) was having a barely audible impact on the vibration of the strings at lowest tension (on that guitar it was low E, but G and B would also make sense).  I used to work in a guitar shop, and was bemoaning my problem one day and somebody overheard me and suggested the cure.  Lowered the pickup just a bit (those quarter pounders are flush on top, so you could put them just under the string, which I of course had) and problem went away. 

 

Never had this issue with humbuckers, and I do know that conventional thinking says that since the magnet location is different this shouldn't be an issue, but seems like it might be worth a try.  I don't see a twisted neck causing this sort of problem, though an unstable neck is a different story.  With high output pickups, covers off, screws flush, pickups adjusted too high, moon in Aquarius, global warming, who knows what magnetic gremlins might be at work? 

[Stringbender]

Any other chords on the low string sounds OK & open power chords are flat ...  Check intonation, try tuning E string so it sounds in tune while hitting open power chord then check fretted chords to see if they are still in tune. Make sure nut isn't too tight and always tune up, never down (from flat to sharp). Could be a bad string, not wound tight enough. Where is your fretting hand whilst you are hitting said open power chord? Could it still be on the neck pushing forward slightly? Yoslate made a good point as well, in my opinion there's no need for locking machine heads if you string your guitar properly so that it "locks" itself onto the shaft of the tuner while using the least amount of string possible. Here's a helpful web page from a great site ... Frets.com

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/G...stringing1.html

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