Try someting different (rant content)

[ingeneri]

Pop music, including jazz, has largely ossified and lacks the innovative spirit of earlier decades...You *have* to play a Tele for country, a Strat or Les Paul for classic rock, a pointy thing for metal, a big ol' box for jazz, a Jaguar/Jazzmaster for punk, etc. etc.  And it had better be the brand name if you want to be taken seriously. 

 

Sorry, a bit of a tangent, but I think you're way off base for jazz. Nobody could listen to KR, Brad Mehldau, Jason Moran, Greg Osby, etc... and think the music is stagnating.  This stuff sounds like now, not 1959.  The real period of ossification was the Wynton era of the 80's and early 90's.

 

Jazzbos are probably the least reliant on brand names these days since most of the biggies play custom made instruments.  Likewise, H535 style semis are practicly as popular as the old big boxes given the volume and effects involved with the more contemporary styles.  When there are signature series, like the Sadowsky Jimmy Bruno and Jim Hall, Eastman John Pisano, hell, event the Gibbie Pat Martino, are completely different designs instead of slapping a signature on an already commonly available model. 

[yoslate]

Jazzbos

 

Old School lives!  Thanks, ingeneri.  I haven't heard that term since my grandfather died in '78.  He was beyond Cool and used that moniker a lot!  Every once in a while, he'd call me that....

[les paulverizer]

Beyond the herd mentality that we've already discussed here, I think there might be another factor at work, particularly as it relates to high-end guitars.  Pop music, including jazz, has largely ossified and lacks the innovative spirit of earlier decades. 

 

This is especially true of music that incorporates guitar.  Everything is retro these days, and the choice of guitars so often seems to be about a particular retro image rather than musical substance.  You *have* to play a Tele for country, a Strat or Les Paul for classic rock, a pointy thing for metal, a big ol' box for jazz, a Jaguar/Jazzmaster for punk, etc. etc.  And it had better be the brand name if you want to be taken seriously.  I'm old enough to remember when one's choice of guitars was as much practical and financial as it was image-driven.

 

But all of that stuff happened so long ago.  If there ever is another popular guitar innovator, my guess is that he'll come out of left field playing on an instrument that none of us would think of picking up now.  It's also worth noting that many of the best studio and session guys play custom-built instruments that aren't trendy at all.  And that a lot of endorsers of the big brands play some of their funky old favorite guitars in the studio--the ones that have the mojo.

 

Maybe this is a long-winded explanation of my point, but I think it illustrates why G-word can charge obscene prices for inferior versions of designs that are 50 years old.  People aren't buying a guitar as much as they're buying an image, a talisman of their youth (or what they thought their youth was like).  And the young guys do it too because there's nothing new going on right now and they go for the retro chic.

 

You're right on the money. :wink:

I've done a session two weeks ago where I turned the volume down on my H150, fitted with SD Antiquity's pup's, and played a cool clean funky part; the Tone was so good that the drummer of this particular project came into the room as I was diallin' the sound just to say how much he liked the Tone; I even forgot about usin' my Strat in the corner....

Rules are to be broken and re-written, and some of the best results, in every field, have always happened cuz people did the "wrong" thing.

Ted Nugent & a Birdland, Dylan and his use of words, Pablo Picasso, Ed Bickert & his Tele, Jimi & everything he did, Eddie and his "guitar building" and approach, the list goes on and on.

Like somebody said few years back "Free your mind and your a$$ will follow"! :afro: and there's a point there...!

Also, we shouldn't forget that if there is a herd, there's a rogue animal somewhere too, but the herd is always gonna be the majority, which defines the "rogue".

Just an example.

A British producer friend of mine, who died 3 years ago unfortunately, told me that he saw Jimi at one of his first gigs in England at a college kinda gig; everybody who played before him were a Beatles/Kinks kinda outfit, as that was all the audience knew.

When Jimi took to the stage, even before he played a note, everybody went "who/what the....is..."that"???????; at the end of the first song there was total silence, people were schocked and didn't know how to handle it. ???

Later on they learnt how to handle it though... :wink:

To think that now we have some companies that market some single coil pup's that apparently give you "that Hendrix sound!" is nuthin' short of ridiculous... ;D they should call the... :police:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ah, ah, ah!!!!!

[brentrocks]

yeah...i agree....there has always been a certain STEREOTYPE for the guitar you play.  I must admit i kinda followed that herd for a while, but i tried so many kinds, brands, styles.....the H 150 is such a versitle guitar, as are most Heritages.  its kinda like one stop shopping

[pushover]

Interesting thread.. It's a shame that faultline hasn't chimed in. Anyone who is a dealer probably has some interesting insights as to customer mentality.

 

There's an old saying that most people know: "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".

 

This seems to apply here. Really, all you can do is to try and educate the unenlightened masses and then let them decide for themselves.

 

There are lots of reasons why people buy guitars. Some because of skill level of the player, some because of price, some because of the name brand, some because it's the same guitar Jimmi used, some because of the look of the guitar, some because quality, some because of the sound, some because of potential resale, etc. Obviously these are not mutually exclusive elements. If someone is going to be happy with a Epiphone (and many of these can be made to play/sound pretty well) then who am I to care if that's what they're happy with. I'm not the 'Stones and don't think other people are "uncool" if they don't smoke the same brand of cigarettes as me (figuratively.. as I don't actually smoke).

 

Someone earlier even mentioned how most people, even if they were willing to do so, would not be able to tell the difference between the $300 korean clone, the Gibby original, and the Heritage version. Then we should also consider that even if they can tell the difference if they were to try 3 of each brand, they're all going to be different from each other also.  I wonder how many (what percentage?) people could really tell the difference? I wonder how I'd do.. Probably not very well.. though I'm sure I'd pick one that seemed good TO ME!

 

A similar phenomenon exists in the wine business. Most people buy wine based on the label. They do however do these blind taste tests, and these show that the fancy schmancy wine critics are actually no better than the general public at picking out the expensive (notoriously good) wines from the cheaper ones when you take away the label from them. My wife's a bit of a wine snob.. I'm clueless.. but I do know what I like, and what I don't. My wife has "messed"  with me some (where obviously.. I mean in the wine choosing dept) and say's I'm remarkably consistent in what I like and what I don't. Duh! Also in the process, I've learned the appropriate vocabulary to be able to describe what I like and dislike about each, and that has really helped me to  find new ones that I like, while minimizing the swill I have to drink in the mean time. A similar vocabulary exists for guitars, though I doubt I know much of it.

 

I know I've said this before, and not all agree, but I do still think Heritage sales/acceptance suffers from the fact that many potential buyers consider them just to be Gibbon copies, rather than a brand in their own right. If I was on the sales floor, I wouldn't have a customer comparing a 150 to a Gibby LP right off. I'd have them compare to a 170 or something like that. Then, if they appreciate the quality/value of the 170 compared to the Gibbon, at that point you can point out that if you really like that LP shape of course you can buy the 150's models. They're also much less than the Gibbon, and yes they are a  better guitar.. Wanna try one?

[pro-fusion]

Sorry, a bit of a tangent, but I think you're way off base for jazz. Nobody could listen to KR, Brad Mehldau, Jason Moran, Greg Osby, etc... and think the music is stagnating.  This stuff sounds like now, not 1959.  The real period of ossification was the Wynton era of the 80's and early 90's.

 

Jazzbos are probably the least reliant on brand names these days since most of the biggies play custom made instruments.  Likewise, H535 style semis are practicly as popular as the old big boxes given the volume and effects involved with the more contemporary styles.  When there are signature series, like the Sadowsky Jimmy Bruno and Jim Hall, Eastman John Pisano, hell, event the Gibbie Pat Martino, are completely different designs instead of slapping a signature on an already commonly available model. 

 

Two points:

 

1.  What sort of reaction do you think I'd get if I brought my bright yellow, pointy-headstocked Jackson Soloist to a mainstream jazz gig?  It's the most resonant, warmest solid-body I've ever owned, and I recorded an entire fusion-oriented album with it, including most of the clean parts.  My considered opinion is that jazz guitarists and listeners are every bit as stuck on "the known" as the folks in any other music type these days.  Which is a damned shame considering the amazing history of jazz.

 

2.  You can't even compare the evolution of jazz from 1950-75 with its subsequent history.  Wynton and the "Young Lions" were the worst thing *ever* to happen to the music, and I don't believe it has recovered to this day.  I've listened to enough current mainstream jazz to form an opinion--and I've heard plenty of things I like.  But I don't hear anybody pushing the envelope.  Jazz really needs another Miles Davis--an obstinate, uncompromising, influential asshole to move things along.  There are interesting things going on in the underground, as well as some aspects of modern fusion.  Maybe the problem is that gigs are so scarce these days that everybody wants to play it safe.  Also, jazz suffers from being part of academia now.  Just my opinions....

[Gitfiddler]

No rant here, just a couple of comments.

 

One of the most amazing local jazz players I've run into in the SF Bay Area plays a pointy headstock Jackson Soloist.  I think his name is Jim Day.  Great tones straight into a tube amp.

 

Also, last year I checked out Pat Martino at Yoshis and after a killer, high energy set of his tribute to Wes Montgomery, I was able to meet and ask him about his thick, archtop-like tone.  He was playing his semi-hollow Gibson Signature model git.  He told me "..with today's technology, one can get any tone they want from almost any instrument...".

 

8)

[pro-fusion]

One of the most amazing local jazz players I've run into in the SF Bay Area plays a pointy headstock Jackson Soloist.  I think his name is Jim Day.  Great tones straight into a tube amp.

 

I'll have to check that out if he's got anything online.

[jerrysleftyguitars]

A few observations from a (relatively) new dealer (1 year):

 

In Heritages favor:

I started out only having to order 4 instruments (I ordered 6, and many since then). Gibson wanted $150,000 initial order and $150,000 per year sales or I would be cancelled.

 

I can call the factory anytime and speak to Ren or Bill or whoever I want. I can talk to the peoplewho do the work! This is unusual even in the small companies I deal in (Anderson, Suhr, Santa Cruz, Goodall, Bourgeois, etc.)

 

I can get everything custom, however I want it, even if they have not done it before. I ordered a Prospect with Lollar P90s. They had never made a Prospect with P90s (so they said), but were delighted to do it (by the way, it sold to the first person to play it).

 

They are capable of making great guitars. I call them and thank them when they do.

 

Orders usually take 8 to 10 weeks.

 

Not in Heritages favor:

 

If they don't answer the phone, leaving a message is often fruitless.

 

Their price guide to dealers is as full of holes as the website. How much is a 575 Mahogany w/HRW? How much is an Eagle? I have to call to get pricing on even guitars that are posted on the website! And you know how much is missing from the site. Those are missing from my price guide as well.

 

Quality control does not stack up to Suhr or Anderson. Not up to the Korean (Reverend) or Chinese (Eastman) guitars sometimes. Binding issues on occasion, glue or finish stuck where a minutes attention will remove it, and electronic issues like having a pickup not work (I'm having one repaired today).

 

These are not big deals to me, though my job would be easier if they were addressed. I appreciate Heritage on many levels that overcome the quality control issues. I really appreciate the hand made aspect of these guitars. I was in the hand made, one at a time , custom house business for 35 years. I did the work myself, not with subcontractors. I like that they build guitars like that.

 

I can see how stores would drop Heritage because of "more hassle than they are worth" thinking. Harder to sell than some other brands, lack of promotion to help the stores sell more easily (other manufacturers will kick in money to co-advertise in magazines, though I have not done this yet), no real website to send them to (check out Suhrs website to see how it could be done) for solid information, and those quality control issues that your customers sometimes find before you do (what's this??).

 

I did not get into this business to become wealthy. I did it because I love guitars and what they do to me and millions of others who play them. I saw an opportunity to make a living (for as long as that may be) having great lefty guitars built that otherwise might never exist. I think the Heritage owners have not become wealthy doing this, but make a good living and build some really cool guitars. I feel kindred spirits at work here. I hope they continue to prosper.

[SouthpawGuy]

A few observations from a (relatively) new dealer (1 year):

 

In Heritages favor:

I started out only having to order 4 instruments (I ordered 6, and many since then). Gibson wanted $150,000 initial order and $150,000 per year sales or I would be cancelled.

 

I can call the factory anytime and speak to Ren or Bill or whoever I want. I can talk to the peoplewho do the work! This is unusual even in the small companies I deal in (Anderson, Suhr, Santa Cruz, Goodall, Bourgeois, etc.)

 

I can get everything custom, however I want it, even if they have not done it before. I ordered a Prospect with Lollar P90s. They had never made a Prospect with P90s (so they said), but were delighted to do it (by the way, it sold to the first person to play it).

 

They are capable of making great guitars. I call them and thank them when they do.

 

Orders usually take 8 to 10 weeks.

 

Not in Heritages favor:

 

If they don't answer the phone, leaving a message is often fruitless.

 

Their price guide to dealers is as full of holes as the website. How much is a 575 Mahogany w/HRW? How much is an Eagle? I have to call to get pricing on even guitars that are posted on the website! And you know how much is missing from the site. Those are missing from my price guide as well.

 

Quality control does not stack up to Suhr or Anderson. Not up to the Korean (Reverend) or Chinese (Eastman) guitars sometimes. Binding issues on occasion, glue or finish stuck where a minutes attention will remove it, and electronic issues like having a pickup not work (I'm having one repaired today).

 

These are not big deals to me, though my job would be easier if they were addressed. I appreciate Heritage on many levels that overcome the quality control issues. I really appreciate the hand made aspect of these guitars. I was in the hand made, one at a time , custom house business for 35 years. I did the work myself, not with subcontractors. I like that they build guitars like that.

 

I can see how stores would drop Heritage because of "more hassle than they are worth" thinking. Harder to sell than some other brands, lack of promotion to help the stores sell more easily (other manufacturers will kick in money to co-advertise in magazines, though I have not done this yet), no real website to send them to (check out Suhrs website to see how it could be done) for solid information, and those quality control issues that your customers sometimes find before you do (what's this??).

 

I did not get into this business to become wealthy. I did it because I love guitars and what they do to me and millions of others who play them. I saw an opportunity to make a living (for as long as that may be) having great lefty guitars built that otherwise might never exist. I think the Heritage owners have not become wealthy doing this, but make a good living and build some really cool guitars. I feel kindred spirits at work here. I hope they continue to prosper.

 

Very well said indeed Jerry.

[brentrocks]

Very well said indeed Jerry.

 

+1

[cosmikdebriis]

Harder to sell than some other brands, lack of promotion to help the stores sell more easily (other manufacturers will kick in money to co-advertise in magazines, though I have not done this yet), no real website to send them to.

 

I think, for the moment you'd be better off making your own web site, like Wolfe Guitars.

 

To me. It's a crying shame and I am surprised that some HOC members don't think it's that important. I'm currently in some pretty hot water on this very subject ;D

 

But. Most Importantly, You're making a living doing what you enjoy. In that you are a VERY lucky man.

 

To quote a famous pointy eared American... "Live long and prosper"

[jerrysleftyguitars]

Hey cosmik,

  I do have my own website. With MUCH better pictures and specs of Heritage guitars than Heritage has. Check it out under my signature. Why Heritage would not have great photos, at least to show the various colors and models available, I do not understand.

[Kuz]

Hey cosmik,

   I do have my own website. With MUCH better pictures and specs of Heritage guitars than Heritage has. Check it out under my signature. Why Heritage would not have great photos, at least to show the various colors and models available, I do not understand.

 

I think their 2006 Catalog had great pics in it. Not only one guitar of every model, but also "off shots" with the "blues guy" and his 535 the "hot chick" with her 150, the jazzer on the cover with his archtop, ect.

 

Then again that 2006 catalog is over 3 years old now.

 

My dealer had a stack of those sitting out and they got a lot of viewing.

 

They need to either update/re-shoot the catalog or reprint the 2006 one and start sending it out again.

[cosmikdebriis]

Hey cosmik,

   I do have my own website. With MUCH better pictures and specs of Heritage guitars than Heritage has. Check it out under my signature. Why Heritage would not have great photos, at least to show the various colors and models available, I do not understand.

 

Firstly I should apologise for not having noticed...

 

But... Congratulations on a really good web site. Well laid out. simple, informative, great picks with clickable links to larger pictures.

 

If anyone hasn't visited this site then I'd highly recommend it. There's even a picture of Jerry, though that's a rather strange guitar your holding ;D I like that as it adds a personal touch. It's nice to know who you're dealing with. IMHO

 

That's EXACTLY what the Heritage site should look like. Dare I say... erm.... Professional... Like you care about what you're doing.

 

I think showing you care about what you're doing is important. I was immediately impressed and prepared (if I was a lefty) to do business with you.

 

Unfortunately, the Heritage site has exactly the opposite feel. Luckily for them their dealers seem to be doing the job for them.

 

+1 for flying the flag for Heritage (someone has to) :wink:

[JeffB]

You're right.... Lets all start judging books by their covers. :wink:

[cosmikdebriis]

You're right.... Lets all start judging books by their covers. :wink:

 

Hmm...  I think the idea is to get the customers in to the book store in the first place.

 

Then let them judge for themselves :wink:

[Gitfiddler]

I think their 2006 Catalog had great pics in it. Not only one guitar of every model, but also "off shots" with the "blues guy" and his 535 the "hot chick" with her 150, the jazzer on the cover with his archtop, ect.

 

Then again that 2006 catalog is over 3 years old now.

 

My dealer had a stack of those sitting out and they got a lot of viewing.

 

They need to either update/re-shoot the catalog or reprint the 2006 one and start sending it out again.

[/quote

 

[glow=red,2,300]The 2006 Heritage Catalogue was beautifully done. 

 

Why not transfer all of the photos and data from that product onto their website?![/glow]

[Kuz]

 

Why not transfer all of the photos and data from that product onto their website?![/glow]

 

You can still download the 2006 catalog from the Heritage web site, it takes like 7 mins, but it can still be done I believe.

 

Look at the left side next to "Hot new Millineium models" (I'm joking, well sort of joking) and there are links to older catalogs.