H-576 arrived in overstated condition

[ElNumero]

I found a neat  looking 576 on Reverb and after much negotiation, went for it. The seller described it as "minty" and overall in excellent condition. I learned a long time ago, the word "mint" or "minty" should be used very cautiously when selling anything, not only guitars. It implies that the item is in brand new condition, even it if is many years old. Case in point, most of my Heritages could be labeled "minty".  The couple that are  not "minty" are  in excellent condition. Anyways, when I unboxed it and opened the case, I did a quick visual inspection and was heartbroken to find a 4x4 spot on the back, with worming. And the thing is, you could not detect it in his photos because they were taken straight on. You have to angle the guitar to see the worming, and it is difficult to photograph. So I sent the photos back to the seller and he claimed it was an honest mistake, that he never noticed it, and offered a return and refund. Which he should. I told him frankly, he should have listed it as Good Condition, not Excellent. And the word "Minty" should never have been in his ad to begin with. Live and learn. I don't think I will ever buy a guitar on Ebay OR Reverb sight unseen again. Too risky. I will only deal with the honest fine folks on this forum. 

Look at his photo which is first, and you will see no worming! Also, the color looks vastly different in his photos, which I presume is due to lighting?

[HANGAR18]

Perhaps a partial refund to compensate for a lower value of the guitar would be in order (assuming you want to keep it).

[ElNumero]

1 hour ago, HANGAR18 said:

Perhaps a partial refund to compensate for a lower value of the guitar would be in order (assuming you want to keep it).

An option for sure, but he already offered to have me return it and I am already over it! I didn't need it in the first place, and I am striving to be GAS free like you!

[deytookerjaabs]

I would never notice that sort of thing or at least enough to make a note of it when listing. 

 

If I was the seller I'd say send it back, refund you, make a note of it in the listing then re-list. The color looks different, seriously? For instance, every guitar at Dave's guitar shop looks different in the photos than in person, I hope every guitar they sell doesn't get sent back. 

[Polo]

Seems to me like your being a little over the top about this whole thing, Will. 

Taking the seller up on a full refund purely because of a hardly visible cosmetic issue?....on a rare guitar that you were actively pursuing and that you had already negotiated down?

I don't man, this one's a little heavy on the weak sauce for my taste! 

 

 

 

 

[Hfan]

There's a lesson here somewhere.

[Gtwibs]

The color difference is odd to me.

[Gitfiddler]

By the seller using the term "minty" in his description, he basically misrepresented the guitar's condition.

 

[deytookerjaabs]

2 hours ago, Gitfiddler said:

By the seller using the term "minty" in his description, he basically misrepresented the guitar's condition.

 

 Thus I always exaggerate those descriptions for the worst. To show the surface wear (that's not through the finish) @ElNumerohad to hit it at a certain angle with the light and admitted it won't show up dead on in a photo. Sure, it's not "Mint" to a tee but it's also something that ya might not notice after owning a guitar. I bought a brand new guitar last year and it took a few months before I saw there was a hair of sand-through on the horn! I knew it wasn't me cause it was under the top clear coat of the finish which was still in tact. Again, that's why I always describe a guitar at least a notch below any sort of optimistic category because folks literally hit them at every angle with the magnifying glass these days. The seller should know now to be a pessimist about condition every time to avoid issues in the future. 

 

As for color, here's a normal CME Pic:

Here's the guitar in person:

 

Totally different, lighting and auto-filers and even monitors can be a big factor. Crooks, I WILL NEVER BUY FROM THEM AGAIN!!!! (jk)

[ElNumero]

On 12/6/2019 at 11:27 PM, Polo said:

Seems to me like your being a little over the top about this whole thing, Will. 

Taking the seller up on a full refund purely because of a hardly visible cosmetic issue?....on a rare guitar that you were actively pursuing and that you had already negotiated down?

I don't man, this one's a little heavy on the weak sauce for my taste! 

 

 

 

 

Hardly visible cosmetic issue MY *** POLO! The issue is VERY visible, but that is hardly the point. Suppose I ship you a guitar you bought from me and you get it and it has worming on the back, you didn't expect or want worming on the back, and I never TOLD you about the worming! Your going to tell me you would not be pissed at me? I know better than that! Now for some people it would not be an issue at all, EVEN if he did call it MINTY. They would have gone, "oh well, its 26 years old and it is going to have play wear on it". That is fine for them. But this guitar is NOT the example I was looking for when I purchased it in good faith. If I wanted a player guitar, I would have bought a player guitar, and paid a player guitar price!

[ElNumero]

20 hours ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 Thus I always exaggerate those descriptions for the worst. To show the surface wear (that's not through the finish) @ElNumerohad to hit it at a certain angle with the light and admitted it won't show up dead on in a photo. Sure, it's not "Mint" to a tee but it's also something that ya might not notice after owning a guitar. I bought a brand new guitar last year and it took a few months before I saw there was a hair of sand-through on the horn! I knew it wasn't me cause it was under the top clear coat of the finish which was still in tact. Again, that's why I always describe a guitar at least a notch below any sort of optimistic category because folks literally hit them at every angle with the magnifying glass these days. The seller should know now to be a pessimist about condition every time to avoid issues in the future. 

 

As for color, here's a normal CME Pic:

Here's the guitar in person:

 

Totally different, lighting and auto-filers and even monitors can be a big factor. Crooks, I WILL NEVER BUY FROM THEM AGAIN!!!! (jk)

Understating condition is always the best bet. If you think it is excellent, list it as very good. If you think its very good, list it as good. Everybody had a different perception about what condition is. Obviously the guy I bought the Heritage from thought in his mind it was excellent. His barometer is different than mine. I would have said something to the effect of, "the guitar has the usual small nicks and dings on the top and rim, and there is some minor worming on the backside". What really irks me is I specifically asked him about the condition of the peghead, the neck, the top, and the back. And he replied, "nothing that you can see". BULLSH**!

[ElNumero]

23 hours ago, Gitfiddler said:

By the seller using the term "minty" in his description, he basically misrepresented the guitar's condition.

 

Thank you Tim, that is exactly as I see it. 

[Polo]

22 minutes ago, ElNumero said:

Hardly visible cosmetic issue MY *** POLO! The issue is VERY visible, but that is hardly the point. Suppose I ship you a guitar you bought from me and you get it and it has worming on the back, you didn't expect or want worming on the back, and I never TOLD you about the worming! Your going to tell me you would not be pissed at me? I know better than that! Now for some people it would not be an issue at all, EVEN if he did call it MINTY. They would have gone, "oh well, its 26 years old and it is going to have play wear on it". That is fine for them. But this guitar is NOT the example I was looking for when I purchased it in good faith. If I wanted a player guitar, I would have bought a player guitar, and paid a player guitar price!

Ok Boomer. 

 

[deytookerjaabs]

Yeah, the seller didn't clue himself into Reverb's clearly stated description of "Mint" but that's not uncommon and he did his diligence in offering a return. I'd never list a guitar as mint because that means I'd be guaranteed to ding it while packing it up after the sale. ?

 

 

[kennyv4]

Imo, it's hard enough looking at a guitar in person especially if it's one you have lusted after. Worming is not hard to detect.  At least the seller is willing to take the guitar back and refund the money. Reverb is specific in their guidelines for listing condition.  Minty/mint in my mind means no buckle rash or worming on the back.  The same color guitars can differ depending on the grain of the wood, how the guitar was stored who sprayed it, and so on.  If I had asked questions about condition as ElNumero did, I would have also returned the guitar. 

[brentrocks]

I'M WITH WILL ON THIS ONE.....THAT SELLER KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE HAD.   HE WAS AFRAID IF HE DISCLOSED THE WORMING, IT WOULD NEVER SELL....SO HE DIDNT....NOW HE HAS TO PAY THE PIPER!!!

[pro-fusion]

I would essentially never describe a used guitar I had for sale as mint. Really, any guitar that's actually being played regularly for more than a few months will never be mint--pick scratches on the front, the inevitable minor scratch or two on the back.

Most of mine were 'well-loved' before I got them, and for good reason; they're very lovable. I'm suspicious when I see an older guitar with no play wear--good chance of it being a dog. When I buy used, I'm more concerned about functional things like frets and structural integrity. I want an accurate description, but I'm more likely to be pissed if the guitar needs TLC than if it simply doesn't look new.

However, sellers--especially sellers of expensive guitars--should be more careful in grading the condition, since some buyers are very picky about finish issues.

[bolero]

+1 agree with Will: it never should have had the word "mint" in the description

always good to take pics on an angle, so you can see any marks in the finish easier.

[rockabilly69]

Will  you have all the right to be pissed off about it. I by used online all the time, which is a crapshoot, so if I have to resell a guitar down the line, I want to make sure it holds it's value, and that kind of worming you'll get dinged for every time. 

[212Mavguy]

57 minutes ago, rockabilly69 said:

Will  you have all the right to be pissed off about it. I by used online all the time, which is a crapshoot, so if I have to resell a guitar down the line, I want to make sure it holds it's value, and that kind of worming you'll get dinged for every time. 

+1...eggfugginzackly.  Seller misrepresented.  

[davesultra]

That worming definitely should have been disclosed. I’d be pissed as well. 

[ElNumero]

Hey all, I appreciate all the constructive comments about this. The seller is taking it back AND paying the return shipping, per Reverb's policy when an item is misrepresented. I had to go through two Reverb customer support people to get this done, but I think it is fair, and as Brentley said, "he now has to pay the piper". 

On another note, and I may do another thread on this topic, I sold a bass guitar on Reverb, and before I shipped it, the buyer changed his mind. Fine, I already deposited his funds in my account, but had not shipped it yet, so no big deal. I refunded his money through Reverb, however. "freakin" Pay Pal kept the fees they charged me! I called PayPal this morning to complain and they said, effective October 1, if there is a refund, PayPal will still keep their fees as a "processing fee" which is an industry standard now. I think this is total bullshit, and the paypal rep is going to reverse it and put those fees back in my account, but BEWARE! If you sell something and get paid through PayPal, and for some reason have to refund the proceeds back to the buyer, the fees you paid paypal will NOT be refunded!!!!

[deytookerjaabs]

Yeah, Paypal is the boss now, entitled as ****. It really hurts those of us who put dollars in a nice guitar or two, ya sell it, it gets returned and all of the sudden you're out $400. That hurts. 

 

Still, it seems to me the slightly cheaper beat up Heritage guitars sell as quick, if not quicker, than the "mint" ones. If anything, I've seen super clean examples that don't move get priced dropped down to normal condition prices. 

[Gitterman]

On 12/7/2019 at 6:50 PM, deytookerjaabs said:

 Thus I always exaggerate those descriptions for the worst. To show the surface wear (that's not through the finish) @ElNumerohad to hit it at a certain angle with the light and admitted it won't show up dead on in a photo. Sure, it's not "Mint" to a tee but it's also something that ya might not notice after owning a guitar. I bought a brand new guitar last year and it took a few months before I saw there was a hair of sand-through on the horn! I knew it wasn't me cause it was under the top clear coat of the finish which was still in tact. Again, that's why I always describe a guitar at least a notch below any sort of optimistic category because folks literally hit them at every angle with the magnifying glass these days. The seller should know now to be a pessimist about condition every time to avoid issues in the future. 

 

As for color, here's a normal CME Pic:

Here's the guitar in person:

 

Totally different, lighting and auto-filers and even monitors can be a big factor. Crooks, I WILL NEVER BUY FROM THEM AGAIN!!!! (jk)

yours looks better in person

[DetroitBlues]

I don't know how I missed this thread being over a month old.

I have a couple points:

• Seller knew what he had, and didn't disclose it.  Whether you have buyers remorse or not, doesn't matter.  But the best course of action would be a partial refund.
• PayPal is not the preferred method of transactions these days, especially on Reverb.  Reverb is pushing their own commerce medium that avoids PayPal.  I believe situations like this is why Reverb is avoiding them.
• Conditions of the guitar will vary as well as lighting when determining the condition of the guitar.  One of my favorite YouTuber's is Trogly's Guitar show.  He focuses on showcasing and selling guitars.  He now even makes a business of selling other peoples guitars.  But his documenting processes and videos are the best you can expect.  I doubt he ever gets a guitar returned for something not disclosed.  Even his shipping methods are documented so there is no doubt it was shipped correctly.
• As far as Will's conditions of guitars being excellent, usually that occurs when guitars are left in cases and never played.  
• Lastly, some of these posts are getting a bit too heated.  In all seriousness, remember ladies and gents, we all have opinions.  Before going to far in one direction or other, try to keep in mind the other person's viewpoint.  Above all, be respectful of one another.